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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex View Post
    Amen. I love watching his SP and LP from his 87-88 season. And his pro stuff was amazing. He and Wylie were the main reasons I loved the pro comps so much.
    The quality of his skating was amazing. Especially the precision of each move, and the deep edges. WOW, one of the best ever.

  2. #22
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    I know the transititions, footwork and ugly spin positions are quite a bit more difficult in 2010, but it is kind of sad that we can even debate that BB could have won gold over 20 years later. I think the jump conent between EL's 2010 program and BB's 1988 program are almost identical.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zokko! View Post
    ...2010 - Gold, and by a landslide ....
    Well, that's a bit much....

  4. #24
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    If Boitano were to tweak his program to suit COP it probably would have been. Then again I am not sure if things like overly complex spins with multiple position changes, overly complex footwork, or overly complex choreography were exactly his thing or not. Evan is comfortable doing all those things. Still in terms of sheer quality and perfection of jumping, skating, and everything else he beats Lysacek hands down on everything IMHO and the jump content is virtually the same.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    If Boitano were to tweak his program to suit COP it probably would have been. Then again I am not sure if things like overly complex spins with multiple position changes, overly complex footwork, or overly complex choreography were exactly his thing or not. Evan is comfortable doing all those things. Still in terms of sheer quality and perfection of jumping, skating, and everything else he beats Lysacek hands down on everything IMHO and the jump content is virtually the same.
    In fairness, for pure quality of jumps and edges, I think that BB would beat almost everybody

  6. #26
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    Boitano's spins were average at best. Not only would his 1988 spins be inadequate in 2010 (in both quality and difficulty) it is also very unlikely that he would be able to COP-whore his spins. Plushenko couldn't and he was a better spinner than Boitano.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    It isnt practical to hold short program rules and restrictions (such as being REQUIRED to do a simple double flip as one of your jumps in the short program) in place at the time against a time though, rather then what their ability even at the time was to actually do.
    Since when is this game practical? He probably would have been able to do a 3axel, 3flip3toe and 3lutz in the short program if he was allowed to, but the fact is he didn't. And you never know if he would have a freak fall if he did attempt the harder jumps. He did 2 foot the 2nd 3axel in the long program. If that alone happened in the short in 2010 he would have been pulled way back.

    And Boitano is a much stronger jumper than Kwan ever was. He probably has the best triple lutz and triple flip EVER for a man. I cant think of anyone who does those jumps better.
    Urmanov, Kulik, Pliuta, VDP, Lysacek, Yuna Kim... just to name a few.

    But that's not the point. Ito was a better jump than Yamaguchi but Yamaguchi landed 3 3lutzes in Albertville but Ito landed none.

  8. #28
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    Plushenko was clearly past his prime in Vancouver, and still would have won if he had landed 1 of about 5 off jumps a bit better, or tweaked one minor thing about his jump layout. His spins in 2006 were good enough to allow him to win the Olympics by about 30 points, despite that they werent the best. And Plushenko is absolutely not a better spinner than Boitano IMO.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Urmanov, Kulik, Pliuta, VDP, Lysacek, Yuna Kim... just to name a few.
    Wrong. None of those skaters have a better triple flip or triple lutz than Boitano. The one who comes closest would be Kulik. And comparing a women to one of the best mens jumpers of all time, seriously. The only one you can do that for is Ito.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Plushenko was clearly past his prime in Vancouver, and still would have won if he had landed 1 of about 5 off jumps a bit better, or tweaked one minor thing about his jump layout.
    So what's your point? Boitano wouldn't have done a much harder combination than Lysacek and probably wouldn't have received ridiculous PCS due to politiks.

    His spins in 2006 were good enough to allow him to win the Olympics by about 30 points, despite that they werent the best.
    A moot point since he outjumped everyone by about 53 miles. It was obviously NOT his spins that won him the Olympics. (what were you watching?)

    And Plushenko is absolutely not a better spinner than Boitano IMO.
    He was never able to hold his positions or carry enough speed in combinations. Plushenko was clearly a faster and more centered spinner.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Wrong. None of those skaters have a better triple flip or triple lutz than Boitano. The one who comes closest would be Kulik. And comparing a women to one of the best mens jumpers of all time, seriously. The only one you can do that for is Ito.
    They all enter their jumps with more speed, jump higher and land with better form than Boitano.

  12. #32

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    Every one but 2002 is right.

  13. #33
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    Boitano would definitely have won Olympic gold in 1992, matching Dick Button's two Olympic gold wins. In 1992, Boitano was the best male figure skater on the planet (after turning professional he had maintained his technical skills and continued to grow artistically), but he couldn't compete at 1992 Olympics because he was ineligible. Boitano was largely responsible for the move to reinstate ineligible skaters which allowed him and other previously ineligible skaters to compete at the 1994 Olympics. Yes, Boitano did actually compete at the Olympic games in 1994, and he finished in 6th place (because he had not fully recovered from nagging injuries and he fell in the short program, which took him out of running for the gold medal). If he had been at full strength in 1994, yes I think he could have won gold again, but let's face it by 1994, others were younger and stronger and his best shot at winning Olympic gold again was in 1992 when he had to sit out. The great thing about Brian is that even though he couldn't compete in 1992, he fully supported his former teammates, and was very happy for Wylie's great success.

  14. #34
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    Boitano wasnt as strong an amateur skater by 94 as what he was in 88. He couldnt even do all the triples anymore (no triple loop), he had a hard time with the 2nd triple axel and doing a triple-triple combination, and his skating was just different overall. He was an amazing pro skater at that point of course, nearly unbeatable. I never expected him to win the 94 Olympics or neccessarily even medal, though the competition turned out much poorer than expected especialy with Browning and Petrenko (and Boitano and Davis) not skating that well so his chances would have been better than I thought pre Games.

    I agree he would have had a great shot in 92, it was too bad he didnt stay for 92 instead of coming back for 94 in a way.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    And comparing a women to one of the best mens jumpers of all time, seriously. The only one you can do that for is Ito.
    TBH, I think Kim's jumps CAN be compared to the men. The sheer speed into them, hight, ice coverage, and flow out are truly exceptional and I think can rival any men.. the best and most consistent ladies jumper ever (with Harding and Ito not far behind).

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    TBH, I think Kim's jumps CAN be compared to the men. The sheer speed into them, hight, ice coverage, and flow out are truly exceptional and I think can rival any men.. the best and most consistent ladies jumper ever (with Harding and Ito not far behind).
    Kim's jumps are impressive but she doesnt even do all 5 main types of non triple axel jumps anymore, and her triple flip which many had marveled over for years began to get occasional lip calls in the last year.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Boitano wasnt as strong an amateur skater by 94 as what he was in 88. ...
    I agree he would have had a great shot in 92, it was too bad he didnt stay for 92 instead of coming back for 94 in a way.
    After 1988, Boitano turned professional as skaters tended to do back then in order to make money. Therefore, in 1992, he was ineligible to skate in the Olympics -- it's not a question of him "not staying." Skaters could not make money as eligible (amateur) skaters in 1988, therefore the majority turned professional in order to start making money. Boitano was responsible for the push to have ineligible skaters reinstated, and that allowed him to skate at 1994 Olympics. By then, I think he knew the opportunity to win gold again had passed him by, but he courageously competed, despite not being at full strength and ability. In any case, if he could have had a crystal ball, sure he would have stayed eligible in order to compete in 1992. The point is, he needed to turn professional in order to make money. That's not the case for skaters today (since they can make money as amateurs), and that's why few decide to fully retire or skate in ineligible competitions, which allows them to keep their options open. However, none can hold back age, and the slow decrease in physical ability.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Kim's jumps are impressive but she doesnt even do all 5 main types of non triple axel jumps anymore, and her triple flip which many had marveled over for years began to get occasional lip calls in the last year.
    You were only talking about the lutz and flip jumps so the looplessness is irrrelevant, and after she switched the flip to a solo jump this past season she hasn't gotten a single edge call.

  19. #39

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    What could Brian Boitano Do?

    The interesting year is definitely 2010. If we are to force Boitano into COP rather than forcing Lysacek into 6.0 and doing figures (where Boitano pounds Lysacek to a pulp and Orser and Petrenko probably also finish ahead of him, even giving Evan quite a while to learn figures), the question for me is how would you change Boitano's program so he scores best:

    Boitano's SP Olympics
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me0RvshG1pY

    Boitano's 1988 LP Olympics
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Rpt...eature=related

    Boitano's slightly 2 footed quad toe at US Nationals in 1987
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSCZuCSEURc

    And Boitano's 1986 LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0FQ7kcqTyE

    Coming into the LP, I think Boitano is close to Plushenko & Lysacek. Boitano has done 3F3T, 3A and his trademark 3Lz with the arm over the head out of the F/w in the SP.

    In 2010, what could a fictional Boitano have done to amp up his score in the LP, using stuff he knew how to do in 1988

    I'm going to leave the 4/4 jump layout he had in 1988.

    3lz with arm overhead with great runout

    3A2LP from his short program

    3F, but with arm overhead as he did the 2F in the SP

    walley into 3T2t2Lp from his 1986 LP

    after the 2 minute mark (as it was in Calgary), something that is often not mentioned:

    3f3t

    second triple axel

    3Lp into spiral

    And instead of 2A, 3T with arms crossed into a lunge with his sword, as in first half of program. If he has the energy, he could do the 3T2T2lp here and move the single 3T back to it's original position.

    All those jumps were high quality and much better than Lysacek's.

    So the question is how much he loses in the spins and F/w. I think he definitely medals-and his jumps are so much better than Lysacek's that maybe he wins.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    TBH, I think Kim's jumps CAN be compared to the men. The sheer speed into them, hight, ice coverage, and flow out are truly exceptional and I think can rival any men.. the best and most consistent ladies jumper ever (with Harding and Ito not far behind).
    Well, the jumps of Laetitia Hubert can also be compared to men's.

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