Gwen Knapp Revisting Plushenko Vs Lysacek

[caseyedwards]

I thought the whole context of that discussion was jumps. I don't see how with Plushenkos's jumps negative GOE coud have been any more than what a lot of the judges gave him which was -1. I mean he is not going to get a -2 when that is reserved for step outs or two foots and -3 is only given for falls really.

[aftershocks]

Takahashi didn't actually do the quad flip. So you do have to add him. ... So you have the model of Buttle Lysacek and Takahashi. But if you ignore the gold medalist and look at the past two silver medalits it is Patrick Chan and he has never done a quad and gets hudge marks for aritistry. So with Patrick Chan beating Joubert all the time for that silver medal-that says something. Abt sans quad would do totally well now if his hurdle was his undoing. Also quad consistency comes from doing one so this idea of putting one in free skate and expecting to do it seems far fetched. I mean as of right now I can't think of a skater who can do great quads in Long programs only. This is totally a down time for quads. The best young ones now don't do one. I mean only Chan is considered great artistically of the ones who don't do one. Then you have the skaters like Brezina and Rippon and name? LOL.

Takahashi has performed quads before (perhaps the cause of injury he suffered and had to come back from). Since coming back, I don't think he has performed quads in his programs. Dai is a dynamic skater both artistically and athletically, but he doesn't have a "classic" style. I think his style is more modern and edgy.

You say that now is a "down time" for quads, which is actually the point I was making. Because of the mental and physical energy expended and the necessity to perfect quads in practice, in order to be consistent in competition, which is difficult for many skaters, we are not seeing them performed as often. In fact, it was Johnny Weir circa 2007-2008, who questioned the insistence upon the necessity to perform quads in order to win. Thereafter, the trend has been against having to perform them to win, and I hope that trend continues.

Patrick Chan has gorgeous edges and musicality, but he still needs to grow artistically and athletically, plus he also needs to mature as a person. I know judges and fans love his skating, and I was intrigued when he came on the scene, but right now he's not one of my favorites. I like Rippon, Kosuka Takahashi, Amodio, Ten, Schultheiss, Gonzalez (even Kevin Reynolds of Canada seems to be growing artistically and athletically -- he has always been a good, if not consistent jumper). Brezina is beloved by judges and some fans, but I don't like his skating -- still too amateurish, old-fashioned, and jump-focused, but he has good potential. Of the veterans, I like Dai, Verner (and I have a sentimental feeling toward Joubert, but let's face it, men's skating underwent a sea change when Johnny Weir came on the scene, thus Joubert did not become the uncontested heir to Yags and Plushy -- the crown was shared by the more artistic Lambiel and briefly by Buttle who miraculously found his 3axel and skated perfect programs at 2008 Worlds). Lysacek is a hard worker who tries hard, competes well, has solid, if boring programs, loving fans and is supported politically, and that combined has garnered him wins -- he's just not part of the "artistic" conversation.

[judgejudy27]

You might be right. But why did Evan's "smooth as buttuh" performance just win by 1.31 points?

Since Evan isnt that great a skater. And his performance wasnt even that great. He has skated better than that atleast 5 times I reckon. Someone like Takahashi skating his best if judged fairly would have probably beaten the Vancouver version of Plushenko by alot more. Or even Lambiel had he somehow landed all his jumps cleanly (even without a triple axel).

[senorita]

[QUOTE=Jaana;2818245]Are you new in figure skating? Never heard of reputation??? Plushenko was an Olympic champion and silver medalist plus 3-time WC-champion, skaters with that kind and even lesser reputation are getting better scores than they deserve (don´t you remember that in WC 2008 Joubert´s PCS was higher than that of Butler!!!). As in Vancouver Plushenko got way too high scores e.g. for his non-estisting choreography and transititions, LOL. That is why the difference in scores between Lysacek and Plushenko was not bigger. It should have been bigger, but, well, this is figure skating....[/QUOTE]
No he got more scores cause Plushenko is the original flailing arm and Lysacek the bad copy paste. But of course Plush got reputation scores, for the reasons you mentioned and many more. And as if Lysacek never got reputation scores in GP, GPF and Olympics..pcs: 10 points more than previous season. Are you new to figure skating as well? It's simple maths. whatever...

But then again, maybe the skater in below links is the "proper heir", in terms of skating, to Baryshnikov.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPHEBjBFbHE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsYSR...eature=related

Savoieeeeeeeeeee
Abt

[aftershocks]

...

Savoieeeeeeeeeee
Abt

Got to love 'em both. Both so beautiful to watch. Savoie, I just want to hug. Abt, I want to hug very tightly, and then some... yummy

[ciocio]

"Evgeni Plushenko was no proper heir to Baryshnikov."

Plushenko never wanted to be a heir to Baryshnikov. Yes, he likes ballet, but when he had to choose between being ballet dancer at Mariinsky and figure skater he preferred figure skating. I know he enjoyed very much his "Tribute to Nijinsky" but he is an actor, an entertainer not a classical dancer. He likes to be sometimes Nijinsky, sometimes a dumb stripper, sometimes a seductive girl, etc. That´s his style, if people expect him to be Nureyev on ice just because he is Russian, they will always be disappointed.

[Markulliz]

Since Evan isnt that great a skater. And his performance wasnt even that great. He has skated better than that atleast 5 times I reckon. Someone like Takahashi skating his best if judged fairly would have probably beaten the Vancouver version of Plushenko by alot more. Or even Lambiel had he somehow landed all his jumps cleanly (even without a triple axel).

Judges were corrupt in Vancouver end of story. Watch SP again, TT said Plushy must be ahead about 4-5 points.
Tak needs to do good jumps to win, some his jumps in Vancouver questionable. He is lucky to be third, it was Lambiel medal anyway.
But great karma outcome, more to come!

[museksk8r]

There are so many beautiful and funny gems of posts on this page of the thread that I'm tempted to print and frame it. aftershocks, judgejudy27, senorita, and ciocio!

[kwanfan1818]

"Evgeni Plushenko was no proper heir to Baryshnikov."

Plushenko never wanted to be a heir to Baryshnikov. Yes, he likes ballet, but when he had to choose between being ballet dancer at Mariinsky and figure skater he preferred figure skating.

I didn't realize that Plushenko was accepted into the Vaganova school and that he chose figure skating over ballet. Thank you for the information.

I somehow doubt that Knapp expects all figure skaters to look like John Curry or Baryshnikov, nor do I think that Plushenko aspires to a classical style. I doubt she's seen him in exhibition where the dance quality he does have -- generally not classical, although he can be delicate and graceful -- comes out much more than in his competitive programs, and certainly more than in his Olympic programs.

People who say "He's no Baryshnikov (or Nureyev)" usually mean that he lacks grace, finish, and impeccable overall technique (in their own field, if they are not ballet dancers). They're hardly expecting him to do seven revolution jumps with his toe pointed, but they are expecting very good posture, pliant back, stretched knees, neat blades, and the perfect coordination of arms and legs for which Vaganova schooling is known. (Although Najarro in his Absolute Skating interview points how a dancer doing seven pirouettes is extraordinary, while a skater doing seven revs in a spin is not.)

[ciocio]

The funny part is that Mishin and other people said that when Plushenko came to train in St. Peterburg he didn't impress throug his jumping abilities or strengh but throug flexibility, posture, elegance,artistry, that's why they tried to convince him to quit FS and prepare for a ballet dancer career. I don't understand why did he neglect this part of his olympic programs, because in his past interviews (2003, 2004) he was always saying how important is to improve constantly the presentation.
My opinion is that he prepared everything in a hurry, that's why his olympic SP was so bad. I didn't like the long either, but it was better.

[ciocio]

Why isn't anyone entertaining the possibility that Takahashi deserved to win? Who cares about blah vs blaher.

Well...somebody agrees with you.

"Q - Evgeni, who, in your opinion, is the strongest skater today, you or Olympic Champion Evan Lysaceck?

Plushenko : - Lysacek, of course, is a very good athlete. Poor athletes do not become Olympic champions. But I would not call Lysacek the strongest . Japanese Takahashi, according to my ideas, is much more professional: owns quads, is charismatic, he has a great choreography. That’s the skater of the future.”

[aftershocks]

... Plushenko is the original flailing arm and Lysacek the bad copy paste.

Best summing up of all the faux controversy, in less than 13 words even!!!

"Evgeni Plushenko was no proper heir to Baryshnikov." Plushenko never wanted to be a heir to Baryshnikov. ...He likes to be sometimes Nijinsky, sometimes a dumb stripper, sometimes a seductive girl, etc. That´s his style, if people expect him to be Nureyev on ice just because he is Russian, they will always be disappointed.

There are so many beautiful and funny gems of posts on this page of the thread that I'm tempted to print and frame it.

I didn't realize that Plushenko was accepted into the Vaganova school and that he chose figure skating over ballet.

New information to me as well, and probably not well known by most skating fans either. Plushy should write a book too -- his life story is probably fascinating. In one of the early skating vids I watched, the commentators mentioned that Plushy came from a poor family, and thus he was determined to win in a hurry so that he could provide for his family. I think Plushy is an exemplary person and does not deserve all the bad press he has received. Yes, he didn't handle stuff well at the Olympics, but I think it is more the fault of skating judges having held him up so unrealistically high at 2006 Olympics. After the resulting criticism, I think Plushy felt the necessity to come back in 2010 in order to prove he was really the best and could win fair and square. JMHO.

I somehow doubt that Knapp expects all figure skaters to look like John Curry or Baryshnikov ... nor do I think that Plushenko aspires to a classical style. ... although he can be delicate and graceful ...

I don't think Knapp is a good barometer of anything concerning figure skating. It's good to see figure skating mentioned generally in the media, but it ends up being pointless if journalists continue to make numerous errors of fact and interpretation. However, it's par for the course, or business as usual I suppose, especially in online blogs and columns.

IMO, Plushenko does not exhibit delicacy, nor would I call him graceful. He's more sharp, rough-edged, manly, full of bravado and energy (although his nerves and age showed uncharacteristically in 2010 Olympic lp), he has a distinct Russian flair, and he incorporates choreography meant to show feeling and artistry, but it doesn't come close to the delicacy and grace of skaters like Matt Savoie, or Johnny Weir. Nor should it, since as ciocio pointed out, that's not Plushenko's style or intention.

People who say "He's no Baryshnikov (or Nureyev)" usually mean that he lacks grace, finish, and impeccable overall technique ... They're hardly expecting him to do seven revolution jumps with his toe pointed, but they are expecting very good posture, pliant back, stretched knees, neat blades, and the perfect coordination of arms and legs for which Vaganova schooling is known.

Quite a lot to expect from most figure skaters. For example, look at the acclaimed champion, Yuna Kim (extremely poor stretch and flexibility, particularly in her lower body -- she never points her feet, and that's one of her main flaws but only to people who expect that quality in a skater). I'm sure the qualities you mention are very desirous especially for those who love ballet and would like to see skaters perform in a similar aesthetically pleasing fashion. Most figure skaters probably never heard of Vaganova school, unfortunately. Watch videos of the gifted Katharine Healy in that case ... she was a ballerina and a figure skater extraordinaire!

... Najarro in his Absolute Skating interview points how a dancer doing seven pirouettes is extraordinary, while a skater doing seven revs in a spin is not.)

Of course, because the ballet dancer is doing that only with his own muscle power, while the skater is aided by ice and skate blades. BTW, I'm not familiar with Najarro. Can you provide a link to Najarro's Absolute Skating interview? Thanks!

[aftershocks]

The funny part is that Mishin and other people said that when Plushenko came to train in St. Peterburg he didn't impress throug his jumping abilities or strengh but throug flexibility, posture, elegance,artistry, that's why they tried to convince him to quit FS and prepare for a ballet dancer career. ... My opinion is that he prepared everything in a hurry, that's why his olympic SP was so bad. I didn't like the long either, but it was better.

Wow, that's interesting. Hopefully, Plushy will write a book. Maybe it's like what I heard the commentator say when Plushy was performing as a 15-year-old at Worlds ... that Plushenko was focused, determined, and in a hurry to win, in order to provide for his family. Perhaps he was always in a hurry and simply liked skating better than ballet, and wasn't interested in the rigorous ballet barre practice required to become a successful dancer. Maybe he felt there would be more money and international prestige in figure skating?

When Plushy started preparing for the 2010 Olympics, he had first sought assistance from Denis and Melissa Petukhov, but I heard they didn't continue working together.

Well...somebody agrees with you.

"Q - Evgeni, who, in your opinion, is the strongest skater today, you or Olympic Champion Evan Lysaceck?

Plushenko : - Lysacek, of course, is a very good athlete. Poor athletes do not become Olympic champions. But I would not call Lysacek the strongest. Japanese Takahashi, according to my ideas, is much more professional: owns quads, is charismatic, he has a great choreography. That’s the skater of the future.”

Again, wow! And, kudos to Plushenko for honest assessment.

[gkelly]

"In the late 80's, U.S. male figure skaters fell into a rut." Really??? Am I reading that right? Wasn't that the time of Boitano, Bowman, Wylie, or am I just hallucinating?

I'm guessing what she means is that after Boitano turned pro (the first time) in 1988, the US men didn't win any more Olympic gold medals until 2010. For casual viewers who don't follow the sport except during the Olympics, anything less than Olympic constitutes a rut. Wylie's and Goebel's silver and bronze don't count. Eldredge's and Lysacek's world golds don't count. OGM is the only title worth celebrating.

Obviously, most of us disagree.

[museksk8r]

Again, wow! And, kudos to Plushenko for honest assessment.

I often find myself endeared to Evgeny's assessment of other skaters. We tend to value the quality in the same skaters. For example, he has complimented the skating of Lambiel, Takahashi, and Abbott in the past, my 3 favorite male skaters currently. I like his personality too even if I think his skating often leaves A LOT to be desired in terms of presentation. His athleticism in the jumps is arguably greater than any other male figure skater in the history of the sport. My favorite ever Plushenko LP was his 2004 program Tribute to Vaslav Nijinsky. I've always found it strange that this was not selected as his LP for one of his Olympic appearances (obviously he would have needed to make it COP friendly for 2006 & 2010 though) as I think it exceeds all of his Olympic skates and I think it's his best program ever, short or long. While I wasn't a fan of his SP or LP this season, you have to admire a man who can come back from a 3 and a half year retirement at the age of 27, win Cup of Russia, win Europeans, and come within less that 1 point of missing out on a 2nd Olympic gold medal. Very impressive!

[kwanfan1818]

IMO, Plushenko does not exhibit delicacy, nor would I call him graceful. He's more sharp, rough-edged, manly, full of bravado and energy (although his nerves and age showed uncharacteristically in 2010 Olympic lp), he has a distinct Russian flair, and he incorporates choreography meant to show feeling and artistry, but it doesn't come close to the delicacy and grace of skaters like Matt Savoie, or Johnny Weir.

In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.

The link to reut's interview with Najarro is:
http://www.absoluteskating.com/inter...ionajarro.html

from the link reut posted in the Joubert & Abbott to Try Flamenco thread in The Great Skate Debate.

[caseyedwards]

That was his tribute to pairs skating right? Hilarious.

[shine]

I think the last skater to truly carry that "Russian flair" was Alexei Urmanov. Kulik was a beautiful skater, but not in the classical, dignified way that Urmanov was. Abt was always a little rough around the edges.
This article posted during the Olympics by Russian journalist Igor Poroshin talks in-depth about Plushenko's skating and his problems. Although I do agree that Plushenko is a skating genius to begin with, but thought it was a fabulous and interesting analysis. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71949

[shine]

double post.

[senorita]

Got to love 'em both. Both so beautiful to watch. Savoie, I just want to hug. Abt, I want to hug very tightly, and then some... yummy

Sandu is one more lost talent, more than Abt. Imagine if Abt was born a little later and was competing after yag/plu years!!!!
savoie's sp in Olympics 2006 was what transitions which serve the choreo should be about, i looooooooooooved it. And he started with a flying spin