Gwen Knapp Revisting Plushenko Vs Lysacek

[ciocio]

New information to me as well, and probably not well known by most skating fans either. Plushy should write a book too -- his life story is probably fascinating. In one of the early skating vids I watched, the commentators mentioned that Plushy came from a poor family, and thus he was determined to win in a hurry so that he could provide for his family. I think Plushy is an exemplary person and does not deserve all the bad press he has received.

He wrote a biography, unfortunately I could not read it, just a few passages, with the google translator.

I often find myself endeared to Evgeny's assessment of other skaters. We tend to value the quality in the same skaters. For example, he has complimented the skating of Lambiel, Takahashi, and Abbott in the past.

Yes, back in 2005-2006, Plushenko complained several times that Lambiel was underscored in the PCS and everybody was considering Joubert as his main rival even Lambiel was a better all-around skater. Hope that everybody knows that Plush has nothing against Joubert , they are on very good terms.

I think the last skater to truly carry that "Russian flair" was Alexei Urmanov. Kulik was a beautiful skater, but not in the classical, dignified way that Urmanov was. Abt was always a little rough around the edges.

My favorite ever Plushenko LP was his 2004 program Tribute to Vaslav Nijinsky.

In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.

Nijinsky is my favorite LP ever and Assisai my fav exhibition ever!

[senorita]

Best summing up of all the faux controversy, in less than 13 words even!!!

no really, not intention to bash, i think Plushenko's success was /is that he had his completely own style, with all the good and bad that this comes. He had the originality on one side that what you see it is him and you recognize his style by a mile(mullet helps), so it was a case of love him or hate him but then he couldnt leave out his personality when he skated and that costed in choreo and interpretation. In Nijniki maybe, MAYBE, if you see this big german documentary of how the program was created, I think there it was maybe the biggest attempt to leave out his own persona and stick to the character. And even then the original program he trained is different to the outcome late in the season. If you see some of his exhibitions he tends to improvise a lot from show to show, full confidence, or lack of discipline there or both

I didn't realize that Plushenko was accepted into the Vaganova school and that he chose figure skating over ballet. Thank you for the information.

He was but pretty early, around 11-12 yeaRS old, and that I guess had to do with his flexibility and long arms, at that time you should have seen his bielman by the way, before puberty his leg was vertical to the ground and could do it with both legs

I somehow doubt that Knapp expects all figure skaters to look like John Curry or Baryshnikov, nor do I think that Plushenko aspires to a classical style.

Sth funny, in greece Plushenko has the nickname Nureyev of Ice, but I suppose comes not from any comparisson but from him being Russian and just as popular. Your whole analysis in this thread is wonderful, I just caught up. And i agree,he is not a classic. I wouldnt call him graceful or delicate with the meaning I call Lambiel, and with all the back positions when he lands quads etc, but I like his bodyline for a figure skater, he gets some interesting poses mostly because of his flexible waist and long arms (i dont mean the flail). I so laughed with the perfect coordination of arms and legs, yeah, thats NOT Plushenko :p

In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.

That was his tribute to pairs skating right? Hilarious.

That was Asisyai, it was not a tribute to pair skating, but a tribute to russian pandomime theater, this character was created by Slava Polunin

Only a year went by and Polunin's famous clown, Asisyai, was born: This thoughtful, gentle, poetic character came into the world drawing on the poetic sadness of Leonid Engibarov's clownery, the refined philosophising of Marcel Marceau's pantomime, and the humanity and comic poignancy of great Chaplin's films. All of these Polunin considers his major teachers.
Asisyai first appeared before an audience of millions of television viewers in the new year's edition of "Light Blue Flame" in 1980-1981, in a sketch with two oversized inflatable telephones. Here for the first time was heard his dialogue on love, on loneliness, on the longing for human understanding, on the bliss of discovery and the bitterness of loss, which to this day accompanies Polunin's hero - and the clown himself - to his audiences in the most diverse corners of our planet.
Originally Asisyai was many-faced and multi-facetted: he could be gentle and na?ve, but ironic the next minute, or puffed up in full-blown conviction, emitting his invincible "Zya!". So the thought arose, that each facet of his character could grow into a separate personage. This is how the idea for a theatre of clowns was born, where each is different from every other, but recognisable and familiar to every single member of the audience.

[Ozzisk8tr]

He was but pretty early, around 11-12 yeaRS old, and that I guess had to do with his flexibility and long arms, at that time you should have seen his bielman by the way, before puberty his leg was vertical to the ground and could do it with both legs

At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.

[ciocio]

At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.

Maybe he is planning one for Sochi.

[senorita]

At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.

LOL yeah with both legs at the same time and while holding a beer on one hand.

I found the vid with bielman (0.55, 2.14) and where Mishin says when he got him he didnt stand out by jumps.

[skating_sarah11]

Reading through this thread, I have a few things to say.

1. You cannot believe, or trust everything that comes out of a commentators mouth. To say that a commentator said "this person should be ahead by 5 points" is the same as saying "my mom said he should have won". figure skating is an objective sport, people know that getting into it. Not everyone is going to see things the same way as the 1 commentator, or the 9 judges.

2. Even though they're not supposed to, judges will be preferential. It is human nature to want someone that is likeable to do better. I am not accusing the judges of this, but it could happen. Also, they are judged on on-ice presentation, and Plushenko has a terrible personality, which is reflected in his skating. Lysachek has a great personality, which is also reflected in his skating. Hence the higher marks. People are crazy to think that having a quad should make you win.

3. Perhaps I am biased because Plushenko is the Mel Gibson (pro DBag) of figure skating, and probably one of the sports most hated people.

[Polymer Bob]

figure skating is an objective sport, people know that getting into it. Not everyone is going to see things the same way as the 1 commentator, or the 9 judges.

So the sport would be subjective, not objective.

3. Perhaps I am biased because Plushenko is the Mel Gibson (pro DBag) of figure skating, and probably one of the sports most hated people.

That, I did not know.

[senorita]

....

LOL, firstly, you think he is the most hated person? Try go in any show in any country he participates. Or watch videos of his competitions. And that has nothing to do if I m a fan or not. I m not a fan of Joubert at all for example, but saying he is not having a hell of fans or audience love, would show either I m blind, deaf or have total ignorance of fs the last decade.

Just for a joke but for his terrible personality, judges had been given him sky marks like a whole lot of years. Why did they overmark him, because they didnt like him?wow, Imagine the marks if they did like him

Also, they are judged on on-ice presentation, and Plushenko has a terrible personality, which is reflected in his skating. Lysachek has a great personality, which is also reflected in his skating. Hence the higher marks. People are crazy to think that having a quad should make you win.

In case you didnt notice, pcs marks were subjectivity is more probable to happen were the same.
And off topic but this is the most .... analysis I ve ever read.

Mel Gibson? LOL

[skating_sarah11]

Well that... analysis is coming from someone that has skated and been highly involved with skating for 20 years.

The judges gave him sky-marks for a whole lot of years, most of those years were under the old system where if you had a quad, you were pretty much garunteed a medal. And I didn't say that they over marked him at the Olympics (though maybe they did), I'm saying that Lysacek clearly deserved to win and the judges saw that.

And yes, he is compareable to Mel Gibson.

[caseyedwards]

Mel Gibson is going too far. It is like a total LOL. People may not like him because he can come off as arrogant or conceited or he is a sore loser to some but just because someone is not liked that doesn't make them a Mel Gibson. Yes I can't go to any english language message board and find more than 2 or 3 fans of Plushenko but its not like he is a Mel Gibson type person!!!

[senorita]

Well that... analysis is coming from someone that has skated and been highly involved with skating for 20 years.

The judges gave him sky-marks for a whole lot of years, most of those years were under the old system where if you had a quad, you were pretty much garunteed a medal. And I didn't say that they over marked him at the Olympics (though maybe they did), I'm saying that Lysacek clearly deserved to win and the judges saw that.

And yes, he is compareable to Mel Gibson.

Sorry but the professionalism of the post disappears when your sentence starts like: Plushenko has terrible personality, Lysacek has great personality, unless you know both well and even then that is too subjective to claim judges mark according to that.
And unless Mel Gibson has a mullet, I miss the comparisson, but it must be a culture difference thing.
He might be controversial, but most hated is disillussional statement for many reasons that no need to explain, if you have been into skating for the last 20 years, you know skating is outside message boards and internet.

[museksk8r]

Gotta love the ignore feature.

[aftershocks]

I think the last skater to truly carry that "Russian flair" was Alexei Urmanov. Kulik was a beautiful skater, but not in the classical, dignified way that Urmanov was. Abt was always a little rough around the edges. ...

Alexei Urmanov was a lovely skater who unfortunately got hit with unfair criticism because the judges weren't willing to reward Elvis at '94 Olympics with deserving gold. Even Urmanov was surprised to become Olympic champion that year, but in retrospect since Urmanov's career did not flourish afterward, I'm glad he has at least that reward for his wonderful skating talent. I think Kulik and Abt have some similar qualities. In any case, I'll take Abt and his so-called "rough edges" anyday, tho' to me his edges aren't quite that rough.

... Imagine if Abt was born a little later and was competing after yag/plu years!!!! ...

But that would mean Abt competing now ... yep I'll take it, hopefully with Abt at full strength without injuries. Oh well, guess we have to take them as they come. I'm just grateful to relive some of Abt's best performances on youtube.

... savoie's sp in Olympics 2006 was what transitions which serve the choreo should be about, i looooooooooooved it. And he started with a flying spin

Absolutely!!!

... I found the vid with bielman (0.55, 2.14) and where Mishin says when he got him he didnt stand out by jumps.

Thanks so much for sharing that link. I looked at some of the other parts of the documentary on youtube. Quite interesting to discover more about Plushenko and what has driven his determination to win.

Gotta love the ignore feature.

ITA! No kidding! Mel Gibson ...!?

[senorita]

Strangely the same conversation came up in GS, Savoie's LP in 2001, I think he was a COP genius without knowing it!

[ciocio]

2. Even though they're not supposed to, judges will be preferential. It is human nature to want someone that is likeable to do better. I am not accusing the judges of this, but it could happen. Also, they are judged on on-ice presentation, and Plushenko has a terrible personality, which is reflected in his skating. Lysachek has a great personality, which is also reflected in his skating. Hence the higher marks. People are crazy to think that having a quad should make you win.

3. Perhaps I am biased because Plushenko is the Mel Gibson (pro DBag) of figure skating, and probably one of the sports most hated people.

Some of Plushenko´s haters from Japan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgCI...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgCI...eature=related

[aftershocks]

Strangely the same conversation came up in GS, Savoie's LP in 2001, I think he was a COP genius without knowing it!

Or at least, without the judges knowing it!

Do you have a link to the conversation you mention? Thanks --

[Holley Calmes]

I truly think of Plushy as a Bolshoi type, but rather more as one of the great male character dancers instead of a ballet dancer. Big, masculine, emphatic but nuanced when appropriate-I adore character dancers as much as ballet dancers. Or, maybe more along the lines of Goudonov. See-I can say nice things about Plushy! He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt. Just not too balletic to me. but I'll take a character dancer!

Agree Abt, Urmanov, and Savoie are more balletic. Interesting article, but I don't think she knows enough about ballet or figure skating to make these statements. Baryshnikov is sort of shorthand for "great Russian male ballet dancer" but within that world are a great number of "great Russian male ballet dancers" as good as Baryshnikov. My Russian ballet friends used to say Baryshnikov defected because Vladimir Vasiliev was breathing down his neck. Having met and watched VV many times, I have to agree. He's the same size as MB but to me much more powerful. Not better, just different.

[kwanfan1818]

My Russian ballet friends used to say Baryshnikov defected because Vladimir Vasiliev was breathing down his neck. Having met and watched VV many times, I have to agree. He's the same size as MB but to me much more powerful. Not better, just different.

What they say makes little sense, though. Vasiliev is 8 years older than Baryshnikov, so if anyone was breathing down the neck of anyone else, it would have been Baryshnikov. Vasiliev was already established as the main Bolshoi choreographer and AD Grigorovich's go-to-guy, and he and his wife, Ekaterina Maximova, with whom he was deeply in love forever, danced all the time in many roles created for them. As a relatively young dancer, he was already partnering two of the greatest Bolshoi ballerinas, Plisetskaya and Ulanova. Vasiliev has always come across as incredibly well-adjusted, very much so in Dominique Delouche's film "Katya et Volodya". Vasiliev was a star before Baryshnikov finished school.

From the other side, Mariinsky dancers usually don't acknowledge any kind of rivalry with Bolshoi dancers, especially those trained in Moscow, rather than Vaganova Academy. Baryshnikov danced long past the day when Stalin would like a ballerina and his minions would arrange her transfer from St. Petersburg to Moscow. Baryshnikov said that even as a very young Principal (and he had many fans), he would dance two-three ballets a month, and he was hungry for more work and Western choreography, none of which Vasiliev needed.

Nureyev was the one that seemed to need a rivalry with a dancer who was diametrically opposite, first with Yuri Soloviev (one of my all-time favorites) in the Soviet Union and then with Erik Bruhn after he defected. Nureyev started late and the Mariinsky was far more rigid about emploi. Nureyev was not a prince by physical type. He always sought a rival with pristine, to-the-manner-born physique and technique.

[Holley Calmes]

I can only repeat what people from Russia who were employed by the Vaganova Institute told me, but it is true that the USSR was chok-full of excellent male dancers compared to the West. Baryishnikov had far more opportuinty in the west.....But you bring up some really interesting thoughts. I was very sad to hear about Maximova's recent death. She was one of my all-time favorite ballerinas-what a body! I met her at the Jackson International Competition about 12 years ago. She was so very tiny! Also, I understand that Vasiliev had had an affair with a ballerina while on the film set in Italy for Zeferrelli's "La Traviata." There was a baby son as a result. I've heard this from so many people....

I never thought of Baryishnikov as a "Prince" type. I thought Don Quixote was his best role. He's so short, and his persona was so boyish. Nureyev is 3" taller, and I think he could carry off the regal roles better. Don't get me wrong-Baryishnikov is immortal! A dancer for the ages. I like Nureyev better, but it's like saying I like chocolate cake better than chocolate cookies.

Soloviev is one of my all time favorites, too. I wish there was more video of him. He was perhaps the best of them all. Such a shame about his death, too. And another I love so much from that era or close-Marius Liepa! The father-not the pretty son, who was lovely too. So many wonderful dancers from that era....

[kwanfan1818]

I never thought of Baryishnikov as a "Prince" type. I thought Don Quixote was his best role. He's so short, and his persona was so boyish.

In Russia, he wasn't. He was demi-charactere. But in the West, he could be cast in anything, since his technique was so great, and defection sold like hotcakes in the '70's.

And another I love so much from that era or close-Marius Liepa!

Oh, yes. His Crassus + Vasiliev's Spartacus =