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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27
    She is the one you could use to split up Chen and Kerrigan
    That home wrecker!

    in the LP if you really wanted to. And if you drop Baiul to 3rd in the SP behind Bonaly as she should have been the podium would have been: Chen, Kerrigan, Sato in that order in that case
    What good arguments could one use to justify putting Chen over Sato in the LP?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    What good arguments could one use to justify putting Chen over Sato in the LP?
    Chen's jumps were definitely stronger, she had 2 triple lutzes, all her landings were secure other than the triple flip, she did 7 triples (if you count the triple flip) and did the triple toe which Sato didnt even include.

    Plus Chen's program while not exactly an artistic masterpiece like her future work was interesting and had strong choreography, while Sato's actual program as far as the music, choreography, and overall packaging was somewhat generic and forgettable just like Kerrigan's. Sato didnt have the spark in her skating yet she would gain as a pro skater.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27
    Chen's jumps were definitely stronger, she had 2 triple lutzes, all her landings were secure other than the triple flip, she did 7 triples (if you count the triple flip) and did the triple toe which Sato didnt even include.
    That makes sense, but another poster up-thread said she did only 6 triples counting the triple flip. We know she did 2 lutzes, 1 toe, and 1 (attempted) flip. She must also have done a salchow and a loop, if she did five different triples. So, if she did 7, which other jump did she repeat?

    Plus Chen's program while not exactly an artistic masterpiece like her future work was interesting and had strong choreography, while Sato's actual program as far as the music, choreography, and overall packaging was somewhat generic and forgettable just like Kerrigan's. Sato didnt have the spark in her skating yet she would gain as a pro skater.
    Thanks for your assessment. In addition, how would you compare these three women in regard to spins, spirals, and footwork that night?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Thanks for your assessment. In addition, how would you compare these three women in regard to spins, spirals, and footwork that night?
    Well Sato was definitely the strongest in footwork, stroking, speed. Sato is almost unbeatable in all those areas for any women. Of the top women Sato was probably the best in spins too. Kerrigan's spins were good except her camel spins. Chen's spins were much better than later years and reasonable except her combination spin which was quite weak. Spirals Kerrigan was probably the top even though she really only did one, followed by Sato. Baiul was the worst of the 4 in all those areas as well.

    Actually I rewatched Chen again, I guess I overcredited her by a triple. She took out a triple salchow near the end she often did in her programs.

    Sato actually ended up 5th in the LP phase behind Bonaly who had a semi disaesterous skate. The judging of the womens event was a joke.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 07-13-2010 at 03:27 AM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    That makes sense, but another poster up-thread said she did only 6 triples counting the triple flip. We know she did 2 lutzes, 1 toe, and 1 (attempted) flip. She must also have done a salchow and a loop, if she did five different triples. So, if she did 7, which other jump did she repeat?



    Thanks for your assessment. In addition, how would you compare these three women in regard to spins, spirals, and footwork that night?
    Lulu was supposed to do a triple lutz-triple toe (she's done it before then too!), but as we saw, she had an iffy landing on the first lutz so she simply did a triple lutz-step-double toe. That would have been the 7th triple.

  6. #86
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    1) Yu-Na Kim 2010 gold
    2) Tara Lipinski 1998 gold
    3) Michelle Kwan 1998 silver
    4) Sarah Hughes 2002 gold
    5) Shizuka Arakawa 2006 gold

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    I mean it was flawlessly technically, but she made it seem like she was making sure the jumps were going to happen. It just lacked spark, fire, and excitement like Lipinski had. The excitement and exuberance just seemed to rush out of Lipinski, while Kwan held it in more.
    I just love the double standard in play, 6.0 lenses to view Lipinski's jumps and choreography vs. Kwan in 98, CoP to judge most of the quality of what came before and after.
    Last edited by Kwantumleap; 07-13-2010 at 05:34 AM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    IMO Kwan lost the gold that night to the skate order.
    I've always argued this too. This seems a simple concept to me, and I can see how the results would go either way according to who skated after the other--both brilliant performances.

    I'll also note I get hives every time I see someone post about how judge #9 cost Nancy the gold in '94 by 0.1. Dude....there were 5 (crack-smoking) judges who put Oksana's hot mess of a program first. I'll say it one last time. Nancy WUZROBBED!

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27
    Well Sato was definitely the strongest in footwork, stroking, speed. Sato is almost unbeatable in all those areas for any women. Of the top women Sato was probably the best in spins too. Kerrigan's spins were good except her camel spins. Chen's spins were much better than later years and reasonable except her combination spin which was quite weak. Spirals Kerrigan was probably the top even though she really only did one, followed by Sato. Baiul was the worst of the 4 in all those areas as well.

    Actually I rewatched Chen again, I guess I overcredited her by a triple. She took out a triple salchow near the end she often did in her programs.

    Sato actually ended up 5th in the LP phase behind Bonaly who had a semi disaesterous skate. The judging of the womens event was a joke.
    I think the following marks are one possible set that could be justified for those three women:

    Nancy 5.8 5.8
    Chen 5.8 5.9
    Yuka 5.7 5.9

    In such a case, Chen would win the free skate, with Yuka second. Then Chen would get the gold, and Nancy the silver.
    Last edited by neptune; 07-13-2010 at 10:08 AM.

  10. #90
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    This is Sato's Olympic LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u2Qk4Fd9s

    Excellent performance even with a few shaky jumps. The best part is the ending where she flies to the finish and shows off her incredible speed, amazing footwork, and closes with an excellent scratch spin.

  11. #91
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    ^Watched again this AM out of curiosity. 6 triples/1 2x and good spins, edges, fw. OTOH her one jump combo was shaky, stepped out of 2x, and rocky 3f [what is up with the 3f?]. Maybe I would've had her in front of Chen Lu.

    At any rate, I think we can all agree that Kerrigan, Chen, Sato all should've easily dispatched Baiul....Now, could Bonaly have dispatched Baiul in Lillehamer??

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    ^Watched again this AM out of curiosity. 6 triples/1 2x and good spins, edges, fw. OTOH her one jump combo was shaky, stepped out of 2x, and rocky 3f [what is up with the 3f?]. Maybe I would've had her in front of Chen Lu.

    At any rate, I think we can all agree that Kerrigan, Chen, Sato all should've easily dispatched Baiul....Now, could Bonaly have dispatched Baiul in Lillehamer??
    Doubt it, she didn't beat her at '93 Worlds with a great skate, she wasn't gonna get it done with her botched '94 Olympic freeskate.

    BTW, real-life people still drink the Oksana Kool-Aid. My friend the other day was insisting that she was glad Oksana won in '94 because she was so adorable and who cares about 2-footed jumps and technical merit anyway.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    That home wrecker!

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    This is Sato's Olympic LP:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u2Qk4Fd9s

    Excellent performance even with a few shaky jumps. The best part is the ending where she flies to the finish and shows off her incredible speed, amazing footwork, and closes with an excellent scratch spin.
    Just watched this, and wow! Yuka really skated great, and boy, she really does have amazing speed and footwork!!! What a wonderful, wonderful skater!!!

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic
    At any rate, I think we can all agree that Kerrigan, Chen, Sato all should've easily dispatched Baiul
    Except at "ensorceling." Oksana obviously rocked in that area. She sold that program like nobody's business, and it paid off. At the time, even Carol Heiss Jenkins said she thought Oksana deserved to win.

    Here's what I would like to know:

    1) If Nancy had been reigning world champion and everything else the same, would she have won?

    2) If Nancy had landed her triple flip, would she have won?

    3) And going back to '93 Worlds, if Nancy had landed, say, 4 triples in the LP (as she did at '92 Skate America), would she have won there?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Except at "ensorceling." Oksana obviously rocked in that area. She sold that program like nobody's business, and it paid off. At the time, even Carol Heiss Jenkins said she thought Oksana deserved to win.

    Here's what I would like to know:

    1) If Nancy had been reigning world champion and everything else the same, would she have won?

    2) If Nancy had landed her triple flip, would she have won?

    3) And going back to '93 Worlds, if Nancy had landed, say, 4 triples in the LP (as she did at '92 Skate America), would she have won there?

    Inquiring minds want to know.
    yes, yes and maybe

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Except at "ensorceling." Oksana obviously rocked in that area. She sold that program like nobody's business, and it paid off. At the time, even Carol Heiss Jenkins said she thought Oksana deserved to win.

    Here's what I would like to know:

    1) If Nancy had been reigning world champion and everything else the same, would she have won?

    2) If Nancy had landed her triple flip, would she have won?

    3) And going back to '93 Worlds, if Nancy had landed, say, 4 triples in the LP (as she did at '92 Skate America), would she have won there?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    1. Heck yeah. Easily.

    2. Yes I believe so. It would have been impossible for 3 of the judges to justify placing Baiul in front based on the technical mark (with the same 2nd mark). It was ridiculous enough as it was, but now would be unimaginable.

    3. I think Nancy would have needed to land 5 triples including both the triple lutz and triple flip to win the 93 Worlds. Her performance from 92 Skate America would have won her the bronze over Chen and Sato with a 3rd or 4th place finish in the LP phase.

  18. #98
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    1998 Tara Lipinski
    2006 Shizuka Arakawa
    1994 Nancy Kerrigan
    2002 Sarah Hughes
    1998 Michelle Kwan
    1998 Lu Chen
    1994 Lu Chen
    2006 Sasha Cohen
    2010 Joannie Rochette
    2010 Yu-Na Kim
    2010 Mao Asada
    2002 Michelle Kwan
    2002 Irina Slutskaya
    1994 Oksana Baiul
    2006 Irina Slutskaya

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Except at "ensorceling." Oksana obviously rocked in that area. She sold that program like nobody's business, and it paid off. At the time, even Carol Heiss Jenkins said she thought Oksana deserved to win.

    Here's what I would like to know:

    1) If Nancy had been reigning world champion and everything else the same, would she have won?

    2) If Nancy had landed her triple flip, would she have won?

    3) And going back to '93 Worlds, if Nancy had landed, say, 4 triples in the LP (as she did at '92 Skate America), would she have won there?

    Inquiring minds want to know.
    Interesting questions!

    1. Most likely. Politics!

    2. 100% of course. Is that even a joke? All the 5.7s would have been 5.8s and we might have seen one or two 5.9s for technical merit.

    3. Umm... Depends on which triples. Her program from 93 had a flip, lutz, two salchows, a loop, and a toe loop (although she did another one at Worlds since she was failing technically.) I'd say with four triples she probably would have medalled (with at least a lutz or flip clean) and with five she might have won gold (with both the flip and lutz). But this one is really interesting because everyone in the top 3 had a perfect skate that night and who knows what the judges would have done if Nancy botched even one jump...

    What really bothered me about the program Nancy put out at 93 Worlds is that Paul said that Nancy had LESS technical difficulty in her LP. That's purely ridiculous. Nancy had at least a 6 triple LP while Oksana only had 5 and albeit no true combo.
    Last edited by smarts1; 07-19-2010 at 02:15 AM.

  20. #100

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    I had to watch Baiul again because of this thread! It was almost like she began to sing the songs she was skating to the music from! LOL. She seemed totally totally into it! 10000000%.

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