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  1. #61
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    Right after Oksana's FS, Scott Hamilton remarked that "she did five triples, all different" like it was an amazing feat - does anyone agree? At the time, was it considered amazing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Right after Oksana's FS, Scott Hamilton remarked that "she did five triples, all different" like it was an amazing feat - does anyone agree? At the time, was it considered amazing?
    Meh not really. If doing all 5 triples constitutes merely standing them up then Chen did all 5 different types of triples, but 7 triples overall, including 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple salchows. Chen's triple flip attempt was about as close to clean as Oksana's, and she didnt two foot a simple triple toe, and she had a couple decent combinations other than a weak double axel-double toe try that caused her to end past her music.

    Marina Kiellmann at the majorly watered down post Olympic Worlds landed all 5 different triples (other than the triple axel too) which included 6 triples, a triple-triple combination, and a not totally clean triple flip like Baiul, and she didnt even medal. Was anyone there to jump to her defense and say what she achieved was amazing.

    Hamilton was just desperate to build up anything he could find about Baiul.

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    Marina Kiellmann at the majorly watered down post Olympic Worlds landed all 5 different triples (other than the triple axel too) which included 6 triples, a triple-triple combination, and a not totally clean triple flip like Baiul, and she didnt even medal. Was anyone there to jump to her defense and say what she achieved was amazing.

    Hamilton was just desperate to build up anything he could find about Baiul.
    You did not just compare Baiul to Marina freaking Kiellmann.

    Baiul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marina (as much as I adore her 1994 bleach blonde saved by the bell voids)

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    Of course Baiul is a better skater than Kiellmann. That is completely aside the point. The point was there is nothing remarkable about standing up (not cleanly executing) 5 different types of triples at that point. Even Kiellmann and Karen Preston could do it and have done it landing more total triples (both clean and otherwise).

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    Chen Lu did 7 triples in the LP at Lillehammer? Didn't she put her hand down on one or something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Chen Lu did 7 triples in the LP at Lillehammer? Didn't she put her hand down on one or something?
    She put her hand down on the triple flip about 25 seconds from the end of her program, the same jump Baiul landed on two foot. Baiul put all of her tougher triples in the first 90 seconds of her program, combining a multiple of botched triple toe tries, double axel tries, and a nice triple salchow and nice camel-catchfoot spin as her only high points in the final 2 and a half minutes (all interspersed with an ugly ass death drop, a supposed spiral sequence with barely a recognizable spiral, some mugging on her toe picks, some unimpressive stroking, and some arm pumping and waving).
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 07-11-2010 at 06:41 AM.

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    She put her hand down on the triple flip about 25 seconds from the end of her program, the same jump Baiul landed on two foot.
    Thanks. If she landed 6 triples, including two lutzes, then I could easily see her beating Nancy in the LP, perhaps by 2 places if you stick Yuka in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Thanks. If she landed 6 triples, including two lutzes, then I could easily see her beating Nancy in the LP, perhaps by 2 places if you stick Yuka in the middle.
    Yeah I would be fine with that, and bump Baiul to 3rd behind Bonaly in the SP (which should have also happened) and you have an ideal podium:

    Gold- Chen
    Silver- Kerrigan
    Bronze- Sato

    All I know is Baiul deserved no higher than 3rd in the SP and no higher than 4th in the LP. I believe her victory will go down as the worst decision in Olympic skating history for many years to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Of course Baiul is a better skater than Kiellmann. That is completely aside the point. The point was there is nothing remarkable about standing up (not cleanly executing) 5 different types of triples at that point. Even Kiellmann and Karen Preston could do it and have done it landing more total triples (both clean and otherwise).
    I agree - I think Scott was just grasping at straws to explain her placement. I think Oksana's cuteness, backstory, and fanny wiggling are what won her the gold.

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    ^ Actually, Lu only attempted 6 triples and completed 5 triples in Lillehamer (3z [wild landing] - only 2t seq., 3s, 3l, 2x, 3z, split leap - 3t, 3f [hand down/step-out that broke rhythm], 2x). I think though that if she had more control on her first 3z, she would've attempted a 3t seq. (that was inferred in the broadcast) and a clean 3f at the end, that would equal 7 triples.

    As I stated an earlier post, Nancy was ranked ahead of Lu by all 9 judges @ Lillehamer which I never realized before and find interesting (Wasn't there a Chinese judge on the panel?) It may have to do with the fact that both did 5 clean triples and although Lu's triples were nice and had decent height, NK did 3 triples in combination and was superior on non-jump elements like spins and spiral, posture. Some of Lu's MITF looked 'thrown-away' especially at the beginning of the program. I dunno. Just trying to see it thru the eyes of the judges...

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    As I stated an earlier post, Nancy was ranked ahead of Lu by all 9 judges @ Lillehamer which I never realized before and find interesting (Wasn't there a Chinese judge on the panel?) It may have to do with the fact that both did 5 clean triples and although Lu's triples were nice and had decent height, NK did 3 triples in combination and was superior on non-jump elements like spins and spiral, posture. Some of Lu's MITF looked 'thrown-away' especially at the beginning of the program. I dunno. Just trying to see it thru the eyes of the judges...
    Skating a clean SP goes a long way with the judges. Kerrigan did that on multiple occasions . . . the short was her forte. Remember Chen ran into the camera attempting to complete the 2toe portion of her 3Lutz combination in the SP at the '94 Olympics. Again, that horrid 3Lutz technique of her's. Going into the Games, Kerrigan already had the better resume/reputation ('92 Olympic bronze, '91 World bronze, '92 World silver, regardless if all her LPs in said competitions left a lot to be desired) of the 2 and going clean in the SP only served Nancy better in comparison to Lulu and the scores reflected that.

    For years, the judges had been accustomed to seeing Nancy completely tank in the LP and maybe had predetermined scores in their minds when she would do so, but when she FINALLY delivered, they didn't know what had hit them and didn't quite know what to do with her scores in the '94 LP. Going into the Games, her image in their minds was the lady who could hit in the SP and yet be the same erratic, consistently-known-to-bomb-the-LP Nancy. I actually think that's what worked against Kerrigan in the LP in comparison to Baiul.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 07-11-2010 at 03:07 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Skating a clean SP goes a long way with the judges. Kerrigan did that on multiple occasions . . . the short was her forte. Remember Chen ran into the camera attempting to complete the 2toe portion of her 3Lutz combination in the SP at the '94 Olympics. Again, that horrid 3Lutz technique of her's. Going into the Games, Kerrigan already had the better resume/reputation ('92 Olympic bronze, '91 World bronze, '92 World silver, regardless if all her LPs in said competitions left a lot to be desired) of the 2 and going clean in the SP only served Nancy better in comparison to Lulu and the scores reflected that.
    I think you have a very good point. But I still would've given the LP to NK based on what happened on the ice that night [although I can accept the arguments for Chen]

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Skating a clean SP goes a long way with the judges. Kerrigan did that on multiple occasions . . . the short was her forte. Remember Chen ran into the camera attempting to complete the 2toe portion of her 3Lutz combination in the SP at the '94 Olympics. Again, that horrid 3Lutz technique of her's. Going into the Games, Kerrigan already had the better resume/reputation ('92 Olympic bronze, '91 World bronze, '92 World silver, regardless if all her LPs in said competitions left a lot to be desired) of the 2 and going clean in the SP only served Nancy better in comparison to Lulu and the scores reflected that.

    For years, the judges had been accustomed to seeing Nancy completely tank in the LP and maybe had predetermined scores in their minds when she would do so, but when she FINALLY delivered, they didn't know what had hit them and didn't quite know what to do with her scores in the '94 LP. Going into the Games, her image in their minds was the lady who could hit in the SP and yet be the same erratic, consistently-known-to-bomb-the-LP Nancy. I actually think that's what worked against Kerrigan in the LP in comparison to Baiul.
    But the thing is, Nancy had a pretty good season in '94 once she started to do her run-throughs in practice. Plus she had the whack story to help her out.

    I think another thing that help Oksana was that she loved two-footing jumps. That along with underrotated is simply the hardest thing to look for in skating, and without slo-mo (since slo-mo wasn't instituted into judging until 2002), it was hard to find these things. Of course, the triple flip Oksana did was the worst two-footing anyone ever saw, but the second toe was very hard to catch to anyone.

    As for Lulu, she simply was never a favorite of the judges. Never ever. I sometimes think it was lucky of her to have won the Worlds in '95 because simply put, politically, China did not care much for her (and hence no politiking). Lulu was still artistically maturing in '94(although I think that if she had thrown away that Winds of Narcissism LP program, she would have reached great artistic depth), and she didn't have the technically packed programs of a Surya Bonaly.

    One thing that also hurt Lulu was that she skated extremely early in her group, and the marks she got for her LP were excellent for someone who had skated that early, receiving 5.8s and many 5.7s for technical merit and for artistic impression. Thus, Nancy really beat her on the second mark. But another big shock was that one judge put Lu Chen in 2 after her LP, and there was no way anyone else before her skated better than that.

    But then again, what do I know? Yuka Sato had been loved by the judges since forever even without a triple lutz and flip in her jump elements until '94. She received even higher marks for her SP in Lillehammer with a popped lutz over many others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    although I think that if she had thrown away that Winds of Narcissism LP program, she would have reached great artistic depth.
    I can think of a few programs that deserve to be so damningly retitled, but I don't think that Chen's Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind LP is one of them.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

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    Sato actually skated a great LP at the Olympics. Not quite as strong as her Worlds LP but still excellent. Had she been in the final flight she would have been a real threat.

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    Unless one can make a good case for Chen being 2 places ahead of Nancy in the LP or at least beating Baiul in the SP, then it does seem that, based on the actual performances at Lillehammer, Nancy deserved the gold. However, the way I see it, Nancy was not really a gold-medal caliber skater overall. Plus she was gifted so many times throughout her career that maybe it was justice that someone else finally got gifted over her for once. OTOH, Chen Lu was a gold-medal caliber skater (certainly much more so than Nancy or Oksana), and perhaps should have won the gold even back in Albertville. If I feel sorry for anyone, it would be Chen, not Nancy.

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    The funny thing is back in 92 everyone seemed to think Chen was the future of womens skating, and had a good shot of winning the 94 Olympic Gold if Kristi and Midori retired, and maybe winning in 1998 as well. People had her tabbed to become a dominant skater someday. It seemed to be a consensus her scores were being held down that year since she was only 15 and she had to "wait her turn" but her time would seem come. Instead she finds herself blown past by the even younger Baiul out of nowhere the very next year, and with the hype around "shaky" favorite Kerrigan, a rejuvenated and improved Bonaly, and other contenders like Sato and Chouinard, that Chen was almost lost in the shuffle. While she would rise to the top and win a World title in 1995 it never seemed she was ever again being viewed as the future of the sport once the younger Baiul passed her in the rankings with inferior skating. In later years the younger Kwan went past her fairly quickly, and then Lipinski took advantage of her absence for a year to cruise past her in the ranks too. Even her World title in 1995 was almost by accident, Nicole Bobek's gold medal was polished and waiting for her that year until she fell twice in the second half of her long program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Unless one can make a good case for Chen being 2 places ahead of Nancy in the LP or at least beating Baiul in the SP, then it does seem that, based on the actual performances at Lillehammer, Nancy deserved the gold.
    Sato's LP was excellent:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u2Qk4Fd9s

    As usual some minor issues on her jumps. Stepping out of a double axel, no triple toe attempt, shaky landings on both the triple flip and triple loop-double toe. Still 6 clean triples on 1 foot, very good spins (better than any of Bauil, Kerrigan, or Chen probably), the best footwork, great basics and speed as usual. She is the one you could use to split up Chen and Kerrigan in the LP if you really wanted to. And if you drop Baiul to 3rd in the SP behind Bonaly as she should have been the podium would have been: Chen, Kerrigan, Sato in that order in that case.

    I cant say there is really an argument for Chen being higher than 4th in the SP. Her program was beautiful but her mistake was even bigger than Baiul's and as overrated as Baiul is her Swan Lake short was excellent overall and she actually incorporates proper elements she is forced to do by the short program rules which she ignores completely in her hot mess of a 93-94 long program. One Eurosport station actually implied Chen was held up to be 4th in the short, but that is only because of how overrated a young Szewcenko was by many because she was young, pretty, and charismatic (the Baiul syndrome).

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I agree - I think Scott was just grasping at straws to explain her placement. I think Oksana's cuteness, backstory, and fanny wiggling are what won her the gold.
    On a related note... It's always boggled my mind how some of the same people that use Baiul's charisma to sell her 94 LP to justify her win are the same people that call S&P's Love Story melodramatic and over the top.

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    i also forgot to mention- if you overlook tara's mistakes and not overlook michelles's, that is also a case of racism, why overlook her ur'and mishaps and not michelles, one is white the other is chinese american,
    we as fans are capable of being just as racist as the judges,
    we nail one skater for their mistakes we have to nail all, we overlook one skater mistakes for whatever reason, we have to overlook all.

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