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  1. #81

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    Celebrity, nowadays, is incredibly fleeting.

    Firefly123, you have no idea how gymnastics is judged. Beam and Bars are judged on things like composition and rhythm. Even Vault judging pays incredible amount of attention to execution and form. And it's not "parallel bars" it's Uneven or Asymmetrical bars.

    Gymnastics was way more popular with both the casual and core audiences before they tried to make it more "objective" and thus sucked the soul out of the sport. Compare the routines on beam and FX now to those being done in the 80s and 90s. Most people will tell you what they prefer.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Yes I do. And I think it would be great for figure skating to copy the model. There is only one artistic event (the floor exercise) which is incorporated into the score. The beam, valut and parallel bars do not use music and are judged on a tech component.
    Yes but gymnasts still have to have great line and stretch, non? They're parts of skating that you obviously see no point in.

    They also have transitions in the beam and bar work. Again something in skating you disagree with.

    Personally I cannot understand how skating a 4 minute program and jumping triple jumps as well as interpreting music and "being artistic" is not athletic. Surely the sport would be NO MORE athletic were the artistry and musical interpretation taken out. Having athletic and artistic talent is thus simply more demanding of the skater.

    ETA: VIETgirlTerifa knows more about gym than I do, read her post!

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    Gymnastics was way more popular with both the casual and core audiences before they tried to make it more "objective" and thus sucked the soul out of the sport. Compare the routines on beam and FX now to those being done in the 80s and 90s. Most people will tell you what they prefer.
    To be honest with you, I guess I can't really answer what is best. As you brought up before and I do agree, people are the sum of their personal experiences and those influence opinion. I do not like watching "artistic" routines. I don't like watching dance or opera. It is just not my thing. I would probably like the new direction in gymnastics....But if the numbers are down then yes, that is an objective observation, (though there could be many reasons for this besides public dislike of the new trend.)

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    Personally I cannot understand how skating a 4 minute program and jumping triple jumps as well as interpreting music and "being artistic" is not athletic. Surely the sport would be NO MORE athletic were the artistry and musical interpretation taken out. Having athletic and artistic talent is thus simply more demanding of the skater.
    A compromise, then? Why not separate the two? One tech program and one artistic program, both to be scored and worth 1/2 of the total score. Throw out the short program alltogether.

  5. #85

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    Not just public dislike, but the gymnastics audiences aren't enjoying elite level gymnastics much anymore either. They rather watch NCAA gymnastics, which is saying something.

    Your compromise doesn't make any sense though, because if you're going to have separate components but still have both programs count into the final score, then why not just have routines that combine both aspects?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    A compromise, then? Why not separate the two? One tech program and one artistic program, both to be scored and worth 1/2 of the total score. Throw out the short program alltogether.
    Because all skating fans love the sport the way it is, well except for you it seems
    Last edited by SpiralGirl; 07-05-2010 at 08:01 PM.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    How early (what age/level) should financial support be provided? Who would decide if a young skater is "talented enough" to deserve the money and how many youngsters should be identified for such support?
    I don't have all the answers. But other sports--basketball, football, baseball--use scouts to find talent. Figure skating could do the same.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Okay, but your initial post makes it seem that you're arguing that it's mainly or even exclusively the "artistic" considerations that account for skaters being able to fall but still finish ahead of those who don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Well, it would have to be, right? I mean unless they completed higher technical elements.....
    Or they had better technique on all the elements they completed, except whatever they happened to fall on.

    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    I don't have all the answers. But other sports--basketball, football, baseball--use scouts to find talent. Figure skating could do the same.
    If we're talking about the US, regionals and Junior Nationals or sectionals pretty much serve that purpose, along with the bigger club competitions. The talented kids will make an impression and will be seen as being in the mix year after year at the middle levels.

    Those who actually medal at Junior Nationals, or qualify for Nationals in novice and especially junior, become eligible for envelope funding and international assignments.

    What more could be done, and where would the money come from to fund it? If there were more money available, wouldn't the best idea be to increase the number of skaters supported the amount of funding offered through those procedures?

    It's impossible to predict for sure whether a skater has or will have what it takes to reach the highest elite levels until they actually manage to land double axels or some triples and to keep that ability post-puberty. For most skaters it takes at least five years of serious training to reach that level.

    The training costs money. Attending out-of-town competitions costs money. Many clubs offer some support for their members who compete at that levels, but usually it's a drop in the bucket compared to the amount the skater has to invest to get to that level.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Or they had better technique on all the elements they completed, except whatever they happened to fall on.
    Eys, and/or higher levels (in the case of spins, spirals, and steps).
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  10. #90

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    General thoughts on this thread, some of which have already been voiced...

    Who is the "we" who would make skating popular again? Fans? Governing bodies? Media? Skaters?

    Popular where? Should "in the US" be added to the thread title or initial post?

    Popular among whom? Potential participants? Potential diehard fans who would buy tickets to events and/or pay for TV or online video coverage? Casual fans who would tune in to watch advertiser-supported broadcasts in prime time?

    Is the goal to have the highest possible viewership for television broadcasts, regardless of the quality of the skating or the quality of the viewers' understanding of what they're watching?

    Or is the goal to have a coherent system of rules so skaters can know what to work on and expect to be judged fairly, and compensated fairly to the extent that they as individuals attract fans and sponsors to the sport, and knowledgeable media coverage so that fans can learn to appreciate competitive figure skating on its own terms instead of trying to understand it as if it were a pure artform or a pure technical contest?

    Is or should nationalism be important?

    Does "skating" include only competitive singles, pairs, and ice dance as they now exist, or should shows and entertainment-oriented pro competitions, or other disciplines such as synchronized skating or theatre on ice or school figures or elements contests that have or have had a following among participants but have never been widely popular as spectator sport also be considered?

    Of course all these interests overlap. There wouldn't be one simple answer. But it would be a lot easier to focus on meaningful changes if we know who would be making these changes and what purpose they're trying to achieve.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    If this is true then why are you worried about it loosing popularity. Maybe they are watching to laugh. Or just from a sense of patriatsm to see if the USA will win. There could be a lot of reasons....
    Please show me where I said I was worried about the sport "loosing" popularity.

    Then maybe when you're finished you could show me the evidence that Americans filled with "patriatsm" are the majority of figure skating viewers.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The training costs money. Attending out-of-town competitions costs money. Many clubs offer some support for their members who compete at that levels, but usually it's a drop in the bucket compared to the amount the skater has to invest to get to that level.
    I'm not sure if this link has been posted previously, but it's very enlightening re the $$$ amounts.

    http://2010winterolympichopeful.blog...rship-ltr.html
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  13. #93
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    Because all skating fans love the sport the way it is, well except for you it seems
    And Elvis and Plushenko. Oh well, at least I am in good company.

    Your compromise doesn't make any sense though, because if you're going to have separate components but still have both programs count into the final score, then why not just have routines that combine both aspects?
    Well, that is what they have now, and my argument is that spectators do not like the scoring system because they can't understand/don't agree with the artistic component in the sense that the "better" skater (the one who stands up doing the same level jumps/spins) doesn't always win. Thus, they consider the system unfair. A tech event is much more transparent (especially if slow mo vid is used). It would make more sense to an audience and it would put skating more solidly in the "sport" catagory.

    Or they had better technique on all the elements they completed, except whatever they happened to fall on.
    and

    Eys, and/or higher levels (in the case of spins, spirals, and steps).
    Yes, and this is what doesn't make sense to your average spectator who will consider the event "unfair" or "fixed" and loose interest. (Since the elements will look roughly the same to him/her unless there is an obvious mistake or there is slow mo vid (like in a tech event) where the flaw can be pointed out (like ariel skiiing or diving.)

    Who is the "we" who would make skating popular again? Fans? Governing bodies? Media? Skaters?

    Popular where? Should "in the US" be added to the thread title or initial post?

    Popular among whom? Potential participants? Potential diehard fans who would buy tickets to events and/or pay for TV or online video coverage? Casual fans who would tune in to watch advertiser-supported broadcasts in prime time?

    Is the goal to have the highest possible viewership for television broadcasts, regardless of the quality of the skating or the quality of the viewers' understanding of what they're watching?

    Or is the goal to have a coherent system of rules so skaters can know what to work on and expect to be judged fairly, and compensated fairly to the extent that they as individuals attract fans and sponsors to the sport, and knowledgeable media coverage so that fans can learn to appreciate competitive figure skating on its own terms instead of trying to understand it as if it were a pure artform or a pure technical contest?

    Is or should nationalism be important?

    Does "skating" include only competitive singles, pairs, and ice dance as they now exist, or should shows and entertainment-oriented pro competitions, or other disciplines such as synchronized skating or theatre on ice or school figures or elements contests that have or have had a following among participants but have never been widely popular as spectator sport also be considered?
    All good points. Guess there kind of needs to be a clarification to a lot of the catagories....

  14. #94
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    Please show me where I said I was worried about the sport "loosing" popularity.
    I was addressing the title of the thread: "How do we make skating popular again." (Logically, this implies it has lost some of it's popularity.)

    Then maybe when you're finished you could show me the evidence that Americans filled with "patriatsm" are the majority of figure skating viewers
    No way to prove this. Personal experience. I watch events during the Olympics to see if the US will win. This year I watched skiing and even some curling. In "normal life" I would never watch these events. I wanted to see if the US would do well. I was rooting for them (us). Some of the people at my workplace watched skating and talked to me about it because they know I skate. They usually don't watch it and wondered what happened to Michelle Kwan and why she wasn't there. (Yes, seriously. It is the only name they knew.) That is how much they follow this sport. But they watched because they were Americans and it was the Olympics.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    I was addressing the title of the thread: "How do we make skating popular again." (Logically, this implies it has lost some of it's popularity.)
    Well, you responded to my post, and I didn't start the thread. So I don't know how you infer that I personally have this worry.

    No way to prove this. Personal experience. I watch events during the Olympics to see if the US will win. This year I watched skiing and even some curling. In "normal life" I would never watch these events. I wanted to see if the US would do well. I was rooting for them (us). Some of the people at my workplace watched skating and talked to me about it because they know I skate. They usually don't watch it and wondered what happened to Michelle Kwan and why she wasn't there. (Yes, seriously. It is the only name they knew.) That is how much they follow this sport. But they watched because they were Americans and it was the Olympics.
    Newsflash, but not everyone cares about an event just because someone from their own country happens to be in it.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

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    Well, you responded to my post, and I didn't start the thread. So I don't know how you infer that I personally have this worry
    I'm glad you don't. ...But that is what the thread is about....

    Newsflash, but not everyone cares about an event just because someone from their own country happens to be in it
    Um... Ok... It is the Olympics. A lot of people actually root for their own country or team. I mean, some of us. I guess you don't. O.K. That's fine, then.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Um... Ok... It is the Olympics. A lot of people actually root for their own country or team. I mean, some of us. I guess you don't. O.K. That's fine, then.
    Wow, you have a major problem with comprehension.

    Just because I said some people don't automatically support an event because there are athletes from their own country in it, that doesn't mean I personally do or don't do that.

    And if you read more of this board you will see that skating fans are remarkably generous about supporting competitors who *aren't* from their home country.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  18. #98
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    Yes, but you're speaking to a skating board. Many people here appreciate skating on its own terms and not because the skater happens to be from their country. And many people learn to appreciate other countries' athletes during the Olympics. Joannie Rochette and Yu Na Kim were in the news quite a bit in the US following the Games. Katarina Witt is still a recognizable name in the US. A lot of people tune in to the figure skating at the Olympics yes, to see their country's representatives, but also because they love to watch the sport - both the technical side and the artistic side. Even if they only watch it every 4 years. If you took away the artistry of the figure skaters, you're turning the sport into something else entirely, something it hasn't ever been. Why on earth would people tune in to watch something completely different than what they know and have known all their lives? It would be a different sport.

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    Wow, you have a major problem with comprehension.
    Actually, I believe you are the one with the comprehension problem. I was referring to the audience watching the skating event during the Olympics. I noted that my co-workers (non-skaters) only watched because the US was in it and they wanted to support their "team." The title of theis thread addresses how to make this sport popular (I assume with non-skaters because it is already popular with skaters, I would think.) Although I will grant you that some observers may root for participants from other countries, I still think that, generally speaking, people root for members of their own country (or team). But I also think you cannot use viewership during the Olympics to represent a fan base. For example, I watched curling for goodness sakes!!

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Actually, I believe you are the one with the comprehension problem. I was referring to the audience watching the skating event during the Olympics. I noted that my co-workers (non-skaters) only watched because the US was in it and they wanted to support their "team." The title of theis thread addresses how to make this sport popular (I assume with non-skaters because it is already popular with skaters, I would think.) Although I will grant you that some observers may root for participants from other countries, I still think that, generally speaking, people root for members of their own country (or team). But I also think you cannot use viewership during the Olympics to represent a fan base. For example, I watched curling for goodness sakes!!
    I understood very clearly what you said. You haven't addressed the point I made, which was your incorrect assumption that because I stated "some people" do things, that I do that same thing myself. Which is particularly ironic coming from someone who shrieks and howls about comments getting "too personal".
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

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