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  1. #61
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    Firefly123, just because you cannot do MITF doesn't mean that everyone else around you thinks the artistic aspect of the sport is bollocks (and in fact they are totally unrelated). In fact the vast majority of the most highly-regarded figure skaters in history were wonderful performers and the reason they were so popular was because they drew the viewer in through their emotions. Not because they could land a triple lutz. Which you would know if you got your head out of your arse for three seconds and thought of anyone else but you, which you clearly don't do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    My point is that the artistic elements of this so called "sport" make it more of an "art" (like dance) and that is what (understandably) turns a lot of spectators off of it.
    Then why does it get such high TV ratings during the Olympics?

    (Especially when it is included in the Olympics. In fact, after the recent Olympics there were many threads on skating AND non-skating boards questioning whether or not it should even BE considered a sport.)
    This is not a "fact". If you can find a thread here about "skating isn't a sport", please link to it.

    This "artistic element" (or MITF or whatever you want to term it) confuses many spectators who preceive the scoring system as unfair because of it.
    You are the one who is confused. MITF (Moves in the Field) is not an "artistic element" . It's a test system with patterns of moves showing edge control/quality, among other things. Artistry is not part of it.

    And these mysterious "many" spectators may think the judging system is unfair because of the way it evaluates artistry or edge quality/control. But I would guess that the ones who aren't you don't think the system is unfair just because it evaluates those things....they probably think it's unfair because of the *way* it evaluates those things.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    1. This isn't about me (so I would thank you not to go there).
    Actually, your intentions are quite transparent.

    2. My point is that the artistic elements of this so called "sport" make it more of an "art" (like dance) and that is what (understandably) turns a lot of spectators off of it. (Especially when it is included in the Olympics. In fact, after the recent Olympics there were many threads on skating AND non-skating boards questioning whether or not it should even BE considered a sport.)
    There will always be threads on it. The truth is not everybody is going to get it. The same way many Americans don't get soccer. The reason why winter sports (like the X-Games, Skiing, Triathlon) don't get many viewers. If people don't understand it, they don't watch.

    You'll always find people who don't get whatever subject it is, especially on the internet. However, no matter how loud they want to scream, the truth is that figure skating is in no danger of being out of the Olympics (barring some incredible scandal, but the EVERY sport sport has a scandal in the Olympics nowadays. If it isn't judging scandals, it's drug scandals. If it isn't drug scandals, it's participation ones, etc.). Also the high ratings figure skating enjoyed (the Ice Dance Finals, for example, I heard won the ratings fight in its time slot) prove that people are still interested in figure skating and tuning in during the Olympics.

    In order to gain more fans, you don't go the opposite direction from your already established fan-base. You try to expand upon that same base and try to get those who would be already interested in it. You don't take basketball, and try to make it more popular by adding tackling to attract the NFL crowd.

    What you want is to retool this entire sport just so you can make it out to be what you, and a bunch of people who wouldn't be interested in this sport anyway, would respect. At the risk of sounding blunt, but those people don't matter much because they won't watch, no matter how much you try to change it. They've already made up their mind about it. The people you need to get are those who are open-minded about it.

    3. This "artistic element" (or MITF or whatever you want to term it) confuses many spectators who preceive the scoring system as unfair because of it.
    It may confuse "many spectators" including you, but figure skating is still a popular sport. More so than those sports that seem more athletic and "objective" from both the Summer and Winter games. What many skating fans are mad about is that it's not as popular was it was post-Whack but that's because of many other factors, not because the sport focuses on the "artistic" aspect.

    4. And, honestly, for those of you would think so highly of the artistic side, I'm not sure why you even want to be considered athletes. Seriously, isn't it an insult to you? Most ballerinas would be highly insulted if you called them "great athletes." They consider themselves "artists" not athletes even though we all understand what they do takes an incredible amount of atheletic ability. Not sure why skaters even want to be considered both when dancers seem insulted by the comparison.
    That's because despite the fact that figure skaters are required to pay attention to body line, detail, musical interpretation, MITF, and the audience/judges, they are athletes and many of them get into this sport because it is such an odd mixture. Jumps and spins are highly important in the scoring system. Just because they aren't the only aspect in a figure skating routine doesn't mean they don't play an important role.

    BTW, many dancers do say dancing is both an art and a sport, but the reason why do it is because they want to perform a piece or choreography for artistic merits. Figure skaters actually have competitions and win medals, so that's why they're focused on the calling it a sport and being considered athletes. One could argue it's an institutional thing. Plus, being in the Olympics, helps support that perception.
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  4. #64
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    I think it's very telling that it took a phenomenon like the Nancy Kerrigan incident to revitalize skating's fan base. Some activities just don't have big followings b/c they are geared towards niche audiences, like classical music, boxing, or soap operas. I also think skating is headed in the wrong direction with the current system. I used to be a big figure skating fan. I still watch every now and then, but these days I really could care less about the results and don't feel much interest in the competitors. I think it's a mix of the scoring system asking too much and the lack of big-name local talent in places other than Asia.
    Last edited by Kwantumleap; 07-05-2010 at 06:51 PM.

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    Firefly123, just because you cannot do MITF doesn't mean that everyone else around you thinks the artistic aspect of the sport is bollocks. In fact the vast majority of the most highly-regarded figure skaters in history were wonderful performers and the reason they were so popular was because they drew the viewer in through their emotions. Not because they could land a triple lutz. Which you would know if you got your head out of your arse for three seconds and thought of anyone else but you, which you clearly don't do.
    Why do you want to make this about me? This is not about me. YOU are making it about me so you can personally attack me. Which is interesting, (especially given how nasty you seem to be) ....However, back to the point. I would thank you to leave off of personal attacks and address the issues I brought up which (despite your personal opinion of me) have merit and are relevant.

    As for "highly regarded" well, that is a matter of opinion. It depends on what you like...

    Um... Sorry. Was never "dawn in" by Pluskenko's 2006 Godfather. Were you? But that quad and 3axel. Nice. And Elvis Stojyko. Not all that artistic... But near the top because of jumps. Bonaly. Not on the top but very close. All due to her tech ability. I could go on....

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    1. We need a female American superstar--on the level of Yu Na Kim. Skating may be hugely popular elsewhere, but the US market is the biggest. The USFSA needs to seek out talent, and provide financial support.

    2. Speedy needs to go--and there should be a separate federation for figure skating.

    3. The judging system needs to be easier to understand. Go back to 6.0 for the second mark.

    4. Make the free skate free--no three second holds for spirals, pretzel spins or counting the revolutions. No extra points for Biellman spins.

    5. Get a major network (not cable) to carry US Nationals and Worlds, at least. I liked the way it was done when ABC had the rights--more was shown on ESPN for the uber-fans with the main part of the competition in prime-time on ABC. Whenever possible, show the competition live in prime time (obviously not always possible with international events). Taped broadcasts will garner more interest from casual fans than live in the middle of the night or during the day.

    6. Get better commentators. Peggy, Terry and Dick were the best. If Dick can no longer commentate, Peter Carruthers, Terry and Peggy would be better than Scott and Sandra.

    Of these suggestions, I think No. 1 is the most important.

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    Then why does it get such high TV ratings during the Olympics?
    If this is true then why are you worried about it loosing popularity. Maybe they are watching to laugh. Or just from a sense of patriatsm to see if the USA will win. There could be a lot of reasons....

    No problem. Have fun. Don't have time to cite each individual board.

    What you want is to retool this entire sport just so you can make it out to be what you, and a bunch of people who wouldn't be interested in this sport anyway, would respect. At the risk of sounding blunt, but those people don't matter much because they'll watch, no matter how much you try to change it. They've already made up their mind about it. The people you need to get are those who are open-minded
    Well, Elvis agrees with me. But then, he doesn't count.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Sorry. Was never "dawn in" by Pluskenko's 2006 Godfather. Were you? But that quad and 3axel. Nice. And Elvis Stojyko. Not all that artistic... But near the top because of jumps. Bonaly. Not on the top but very close. All due to her tech ability. I could go on....
    Yeah, but who are the super stars of the sport? The ones who can jump, and capture the audience with their performance quality. Plushenko, though I don't personally get him, has a lot of fans because of his charisma and his jump quality.

    Kwan was the biggest American figure skater during her competitive days and it was a mix of her consistent jumping ability and her ability to set the arena on fire with her musical interpretation.

    Katarina Witt, for all of her theatrics, is still a big name for people who remember skating in the 80s. Kristi Yamaguchi was way more popular as a pro when she developed her artistic side.

    Kurt Browning, a household name because of his danceability. Scott Hamilton? Popular because he was able to entertain the audience?

    Why did Sale/Pelletier capture the audience in SLC? Not just because they were "clean" but they were able to interpret that dreck Love Story and make people think of Ryan O'Neal and Ali MacGraw. Likewise, Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze are popular with the skating fans because they were able to combine very difficult choreography with classical Russian style.

    Gordeeva/Grinkov? They were the Pairs team that captured casual audiences because of their connection with one another.

    You think any of those people would be as big if all they did around the rink was jump and spin? You'd be off your rocker to think that.

    ETA:

    Oh, look, I can google too!

    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=of...01d881a5ff002f

    Guess what, figure skating has it's defenders too.

    As for Elvis, one can argue because he himself, like somebody who is taking this stance, focused on the aspects of the sport he felt most comfortable with, he would advocate that the sport go in a direction that would have benefited him when he was competing.

    For every Elvis, you can find many other skaters who feel otherwise.

    As for your reasons why people watch figure skating during the Olympics, that's all supposition. The fact is people watch it more than any other sport that is showcased in the U.S. You can't throw it all away based on guesses you can come up with without any real evidence to support it.

    Skating is as popular as many niche sports can be. What people (skating fans) want is to have figure skating enjoy the popularity it had after the Whack. The problem is that many things happened in society to change it. Cable/satellite television has many more channels to compete for interest. The internet happened and people find other things to occupy themselves with, there was an over-saturation of fluffy events/competition that were done to, guess what, expand our audience and all it did was isolate the core audience and failed to attract viewers who wouldn't be interested any way.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 07-05-2010 at 06:56 PM.
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    1. We need a female American superstar--on the level of Yu Na Kim. Skating may be hugely popular elsewhere, but the US market is the biggest. The USFSA needs to seek out talent, and provide financial support.
    How early (what age/level) should financial support be provided? Who would decide if a young skater is "talented enough" to deserve the money and how many youngsters should be identified for such support?

  10. #70
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    OK. Everyone. Calm down. I am just saying that I do believe that the reasons "casual spectators" do not want to watch figure skating and/or mock it are for the reasons I cited and that, personally (even though I skate), I feel the same way. If you think there is no problem and that the sport is doing fine then.....great. But why start this thread in the first place?.....And, btw, I don't appreciate the personal attacks.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    OK. Everyone. Calm down. I am just saying that I do believe that the reasons "casual spectators" do not want to watch figure skating and/or mock it are for the reasons I cited and that, personally (even though I skate), I feel the same way. If you think there is no problem and that the sport is doing fine then.....great. But why start this thread in the first place?.....And, btw, I don't appreciate the personal attacks.
    You have some unpopular opinions about skating. People are going to disagree with you. You need to separate "personal attacks" from the vast majority of people on here disagreeing with you. No one's attacking you. If you can't take the heat here, stay out of the kitchen. It just seems like there are so many parts of skating you don't like......pretty much everything except jumping. YOu hate artistry, you hate the costumes, you HATE MITF. We've read your previous threads about your own skating....so yeah, your intentions are pretty transparent. You can say they're not, but you're not fooling anyone.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    That is my point. This is what confuses the spectators. They see a skater fall and then see them get higher points than someone who stands up. This makes no sense to most spectators and they preceive it to be unfair. Then they get angry. Then they tune out.
    Okay, but your initial post makes it seem that you're arguing that it's mainly or even exclusively the "artistic" considerations that account for skaters being able to fall but still finish ahead of those who don't.
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    And your intentions (both you personally, Stormy and plural, collective) are also quite transparent. You know very well the difference between an opinion and a personal attack, so don't even try that one. And, yes, I can stand the heat.... So don't worry about it.

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    Okay, but your initial post makes it seem that you're arguing that it's mainly or even exclusively the "artistic" considerations that account for skaters being able to fall but still finish ahead of those who don't
    Well, it would have to be, right? I mean unless they completed higher technical elements.....

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    OK. Everyone. Calm down. I am just saying that I do believe that the reasons "casual spectators" do not want to watch figure skating and/or mock it are for the reasons I cited and that, personally (even though I skate), I feel the same way. If you think there is no problem and that the sport is doing fine then.....great. But why start this thread in the first place?.....And, btw, I don't appreciate the personal attacks.
    Everyone is being calm. You're the one who had the dramatically bold emphatics in your first post. And no one is attacking you, they're responding to your posts, here and elsewhere on the board. Considering they all say basically the same thing, that's pretty fair.
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  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    And your intentions (both you personally, Stormy and plural, collective) are also quite transparent. You know very well the difference between an opinion and a personal attack, so don't even try that one. And, yes, I can stand the heat.... So don't worry about it.
    In my case, I was using your personal experiences and defiance of the basics of figure skating as a reason why you personally want to change the sport so much or feel that the sport is ultimately flawed because it isn't what you want it to be.

    I wasn't attacking your character, but feel that you cannot separate your personal experiences from your personal opinions on figure skating. We call have a reason why we take the stance we do. I find that to be a valid point.
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    Firely123, do you not consider gymnastics a "sport", and gymnasts as "athletes"?

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    And no one is attacking you, they're responding to your posts, here and elsewhere on the board. Considering they all say basically the same thing
    I am sorry to disagree with you, but yes they are. This discussion is about skating in general. It is not about my skating or my strengths/weaknesses. And many of the attacks are personal in nature and they are nasty. And you know it....

    In my case, I was using your personal experiences and defiance of the basics of figure skating as a reason why you personally want to change the sport so much or feel that the sport is ultimately flawed because it isn't what you want it to be.

    I wasn't attacking your character, but feel that you cannot separate your personal experiences from your personal opinions on figure skating. We call have a reason why we take the stance we do. I find that to be a valid point.
    I am telling you what I have observed and what I believe. You are entitled to disagree (without personally attacking me.) That is fair. I do think that the artistic component turns off a lot of the general public from figure skating. That is my own opinion. Yes, it is based in my own preferences, but it is also a valid opinion. If you have a different opinion, then fine. I'm sure it may be based on your own preferences and observations. That is life.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenny12 View Post
    One word: Twilight.
    The days of sparkly vampires are numbered.

    Honestly, I don't understand why skating can't be more popular in the US. They have an olympic gold medalist again, who appears to be, by any means, not what the casual haterz of this sport think when they hear "men's figure skating". Tall and handsome dude, popular with many women (and I'm sure men too ) and still no visible sign of a rising interest.

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    Firely123, do you not consider gymnastics a "sport", and gymnasts as "athletes"?
    Yes I do. And I think it would be great for figure skating to copy the model. There is only one artistic event (the floor exercise) which is incorporated into the score. The beam, valut and parallel bars do not use music and are judged on a tech component.

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