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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Because Baiul had more charisma than any of these ladies. I was watching her performances the other day and I agree with commentators who said she just grabs your attention whenever she's on the ice. Her incredible presence helped hide her weaknesses. She was also very fortunate to come onto the scene during a time where there wasn't a consistent female skater who was both artistically and technically excellent.
    Absolutely agree! Oksana wouldn't have stood a chance against Kristi and Midori nor Michelle and Tara in the eyes of an ISU judging panel.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Absolutely agree! Oksana wouldn't have stood a chance against Kristi and Midori nor Michelle and Tara in the eyes of an ISU judging panel.
    That is assuming she didnt have anymore improvement left. Which her pro performances dont give much hope for optimism in.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    That is assuming she didnt have anymore improvement left. Which her pro performances dont give much hope for optimism in.
    True. Her pro career was much worse than her elgibile one, which still, resume aside, wasn't that brilliant. JMO. If only the construction of her programs could have matched the excellence of her charisma and presentation, her victories wouldn't be so questionable as they are. There's also the bad habit of two-footing her jumps that comes into the picture.

  4. #84
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    And if she actually ever attempted more than 5 triples or atleast did a triple-double combination of some kind in the long program.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    And if she actually ever attempted more than 5 triples or atleast did a triple-double combination of some kind in the long program.
    Does that mean Oksana didn't have neither more than 5 triples planned nor a triple-double combination in any of the European Championships, Nations Cup or Skate America that year? You would think the coaches would have at least planned a more ambitious program for her at the beginning of the season.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    Does that mean Oksana didn't have neither more than 5 triples planned nor a triple-double combination in any of the European Championships, Nations Cup or Skate America that year? You would think the coaches would have at least planned a more ambitious program for her at the beginning of the season.
    But it's the Soviet way for the ladies. Look at Butyrskaya's early performances. And Liashenko. And Lavrenchuk. [in the mid to late 90s]

    Mostly just attempting one of each triple and a 2axel, and then just a sequence or an easier 3/2. They never felt about combining and repeating their harder triples. They were just doing what the rules required about one combination/ sequence minimum and checking the boxes of triples. And then maybe repeat a 3toe. They weren't really thinking about being competitive at the top.

    It wasn't until 1997 when Butyrskaya was near the top at Euros and Worlds when she would repeat a 3loop (and thus had to do a loop combo). IIRC Butyrskaya and Liashenko didn't include a second 3lutz until 2001 when they were past their mid 20s.

    Slutskaya was more of a jumping bean and was probably the exception.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But it's the Soviet way for the ladies. Look at Butyrskaya's early performances. And Liashenko. And Lavrenchuk. [in the mid to late 90s]

    Mostly just attempting one of each triple and a 2axel, and then just a sequence or an easier 3/2. They never felt about combining and repeating their harder triples. They were just doing what the rules required about one combination/ sequence minimum and checking the boxes of triples. And then maybe repeat a 3toe. They weren't really thinking about being competitive at the top.

    It wasn't until 1997 when Butyrskaya was near the top at Euros and Worlds when she would repeat a 3loop (and thus had to do a loop combo). IIRC Butyrskaya and Liashenko didn't include a second 3lutz until 2001 when they were past their mid 20s.

    Slutskaya was more of a jumping bean and was probably the exception.
    True, but even Slutskaya didn't repeat the lutz until her comeback in 99/00 (minus a few times she threw in a second one when the first was a failure) and she also was more typically going for 6 triples at a time when Kwan, Lipinski, Chen and others were always going for 7. Were they counting on the others to mess up, or just hoping to get 3rd place?

  8. #88
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    This was the post-figures era when suddenly you need all 5 basic triples to be competitive even after Yamaguchi and Ito left, so they were all forced to do it.

    Baiul's biggest game plan was the overall impact of her skating. So as long as she was clean she was going to get 5.8s and 5.9s and trump Bonaly. Don't forget she wasn't a very consistent skater back in 1993/4. So perhaps team Baiul felt one of each triple was a good enough balance between piling up difficulty and making sure she can go clean.

    Butyrksaya was in her early 20s by 1993/4 so perhaps she was also struggling to even have 5 triples (the flip was a hard jump for her, no?). Her jump progression since then had been remarkable though.

    Similarly for Liashenko and Lavrenchuk I presume. Lavrenchuk didn't really get the chance to but Liashenko added more jumps in after she got comfortable with the triples. By the time she was retiring she was repeating the lutz and flip (but no loop, duh!).

    One thing I never understood was, all these ladies have killer 3lutzes, and usually opened their programs with one, but they never felt like combining them even with 2toes? Once you land a good 3lutz it's not so hard to add a 2toe after it. It would have been the top combination at the time. But most of them just did their big solo jumps and did combinations to the 3toes or 2axels. Pity.

    Slutskaya was still young back in the mid 90s and having troubles with the lutz and flip so she probably wanted to focus on landing them cleanly. IIRC she did repeat the loop and sal at 1995 Worlds but had no flip. Still, she did her combinations which was a rarity for Soviet ladies in the 1990s.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    True, but even Slutskaya didn't repeat the lutz until her comeback in 99/00 (minus a few times she threw in a second one when the first was a failure) and she also was more typically going for 6 triples at a time when Kwan, Lipinski, Chen and others were always going for 7. Were they counting on the others to mess up, or just hoping to get 3rd place?
    I dont think Butryskaya ever really believed she was a contender for more than 3rd place until after the 98 Olympics. Add to that she isnt a very talented jumper to begin with. Her jumps were like the rest of her skating, hard work and lots of effort to manage what she did. And she was having massive trouble ever completing everything cleanly of what she did have planned so why would she add at that point.

    Slutskaya was enough of a judges favorite I think she felt she had a shot of more than 3rd place even in 96-97 if she skated extremely well (and she probably did in most cases unless it was an exceptional event). She should have been doing more jump content with her jumping ability though, it is not like she was ever focusing much on presentation back then after all. Then again she too was having trouble doing clean long programs from the 96 Worlds on even with what she did have then, which is probably why she didnt upgrade.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 07-28-2010 at 08:55 AM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    T

    One thing I never understood was, all these ladies have killer 3lutzes, and usually opened their programs with one, but they never felt like combining them even with 2toes? Once you land a good 3lutz it's not so hard to add a 2toe after it. It would have been the top combination at the time. But most of them just did their big solo jumps and did combinations to the 3toes or 2axels. Pity.
    Slutskaya did beautiful triple lutz-triple loop combo (Worlds 2005).
    That was unforgettable perfomance.

  11. #91
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    Does anyone think Michelle's Salome is probably the best Worlds LP performance of all time? I know it's hard to judge across eras and with different rules, but in terms of overall quality, I haven't seen another performance that have exceeded that one.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Does anyone think Michelle's Salome is probably the best Worlds LP performance of all time? I know it's hard to judge across eras and with different rules, but in terms of overall quality, I haven't seen another performance that have exceeded that one.
    Definitely 110% not. I dont want to downplay it since it was excellent and certainly World Championships worthy, and to skate so excellently and win after defending World Champion Chen had gotten two 6.0s is impressive. However it isnt even her own best Worlds LP performance ever. 2000 and 2001 were clearly better, more matured artistically by then, faster, and better jumps wise (excellent triple-triple combination in both). And while I dont prefer it to 96 there are many who probably prefer Kwan's 2003 Worlds LP to it too considering there are some who even rank her 03 over 2000 and 2001 And in fact there are many who felt it wasnt even the best that night (many thought Chen was robbed).

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Definitely 110% not. I dont want to downplay it since it was excellent and certainly World Championships worthy, and to skate so excellently and win after defending World Champion Chen had gotten two 6.0s is impressive. However it isnt even her own best Worlds LP performance ever. 2000 and 2001 were clearly better, more matured artistically by then, faster, and better jumps wise (excellent triple-triple combination in both). And while I dont prefer it to 96 there are many who probably prefer Kwan's 2003 Worlds LP to it too considering there are some who even rank her 03 over 2000 and 2001 And in fact there are many who felt it wasnt even the best that night (many thought Chen was robbed).
    110%
    I never felt Chen was robbed that night. Maybe because I liked her previous year performances much better. So which one would you pick?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    110%
    I never felt Chen was robbed that night. Maybe because I liked her previous year performances much better. So which one would you pick?
    Best of all time for me would be between:

    -Kwan's 2001 Worlds LP
    -Kwan's 2000 Worlds LP
    -Ito's 1989 Worlds LP
    -Ito's 1990 Worlds LP
    -Yu Na Kim's 2010 Olympics LP (ok not Worlds but still)
    -Arakawa's 2004 Worlds LP
    -Witt's 1987 Worlds LP (considering the time frame)
    -Lynn's 1971 and 1973 Worlds LPs (again considering the time frame)

    Kwan's 96 Worlds LP would certainly be in the 2nd group after that one along with Chen's that night. IMO Kwan's 96 Worlds LP while outstanding was no better than her own 4th best LP in a World or Olympic event behind the 98 Olympics LP, 2000 Worlds LP, and 2001 Worlds LP. 2003 Worlds LP could be argued as better too, and her 97 Worlds LP would have definitely been better had she done the 2nd triple lutz as her overall artistry and everything about her skating was visibly improved in 97 from what 96. She had come a so far since 95, but she still had so much more growth as an artist and even an overall technician left. 96 was just getting started on the road to her full potential as a skater IMO.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Best of all time for me would be between:

    -Kwan's 2001 Worlds LP
    -Kwan's 2000 Worlds LP
    -Ito's 1989 Worlds LP
    -Ito's 1990 Worlds LP
    -Yu Na Kim's 2010 Olympics LP (ok not Worlds but still)
    -Arakawa's 2004 Worlds LP
    -Witt's 1987 Worlds LP (considering the time frame)
    -Lynn's 1971 and 1973 Worlds LPs (again considering the time frame)
    Worlds only please or else it'll get complicated. Michelle's 2000 and 2001 program were wonderful and better technically but I felt they weren't as effective as her Salome performance. That performance just had more of the "Wow" factor. That's why I can never understand the praise given to Arakawa's 2004 LP. Sure, it was technically challenging (although she was fortunate the callers weren't that strict back then cause several of her jumps at the end of combinations looked iffy), but more importantly, it really lacked in excitement. In place of that performance, I would rather add Mao's brilliant 2007 LP performance.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Worlds only please or else it'll get complicated. Michelle's 2000 and 2001 program were wonderful and better technically but I felt they weren't as effective as her Salome performance. That performance just had more of the "Wow" factor. That's why I can never understand the praise given to Arakawa's 2004 LP. Sure, it was technically challenging (although she was fortunate the callers weren't that strict back then cause several of her jumps at the end of combinations looked iffy), but more importantly, it really lacked in excitement. In place of that performance, I would rather add Mao's brilliant 2007 LP performance.
    Fair enough. I see where you are coming from but I felt her 2000 Worlds LP had an amazing wow factor, the way the music built towards the end especialy, and she came flying down the rink after landing that 2nd triple lutz, wow.

    Shizuka's overall skating style is understated so she will never be the most exciting. I still found her 2004 Worlds LP historic, a triple lutz-triple-double combination, a 2nd triple-triple, amazing jumps combined with first rate basic skating, musicality, emotional impact, and style.

  17. #97
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    Omg. I had never seen Trenary's performance before but had to watch it because some people said it was so bad, and it was about as bad as people said. She can jump (usually), but her 'artistry' is horrid. I can't get over the weird way she holds her arms whenever she's doing anything that's not a jump. She looks like she's made of wood most of the time.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Omg. I had never seen Trenary's performance before but had to watch it because some people said it was so bad, and it was about as bad as people said. She can jump (usually), but her 'artistry' is horrid. I can't get over the weird way she holds her arms whenever she's doing anything that's not a jump. She looks like she's made of wood most of the time.
    She could be a nice stylist when she actually had good choreography.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    She could be a nice stylist when she actually had good choreography.
    I thought the music cuts were odd and the sound was 'tinny'. It didn't show off her best, but I think she switched to a new choreographer for the '89 - '90 season? Anyway, she skated the LP at '90 Nats and Worlds with minimal mistakes which was a big deal for her and a good way to exit the sport [not intentionally. Injuries kept her out during the '90 - '91 season].

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