Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 99
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami, FL, USA
    Posts
    6,778
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I have to disagree on you vs Trenary. Baiul's 94 Olympic LP as overrated and undeserving of a gold medal that night as it was, would have easily beaten Trenary's 1990 LP just in the LP phase anyway IMHO. I actually disliked Baiul's performance more with all the mugging, posing, and the free loading at the end which I found just sloppy. However she atleast stood up all 5 types of triples even if a couple two footed while the only thing Trenary tried harder than a triple salchow was a shaky triple flip, and did a beautiful triple lutz to start the program. Granted it isnt just about jumps but I dont even want to start into comparing the bizarre choreography, musical edits, and many other strange aspects of both programs.
    See. I view it as both ladies attempted 5 triples and landed 4 clean triples- Oksana's lutz and loop v. Jill's Flip were the most difficult. But IIRC Jill also did an axel-3sal [albeit with a step-out] and 3toe-2toe. Oksana had none. Jill also had entrances, better spins and a spiral vs. Oksana's nearly non-existent spins and non-spiral. Jill had a better constructed layout to her program, too. Both had not-so-great music and as you said, bizzarre choreography.

    Anyway, JMHO, and it was close in my mind.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,998
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    See. I view it as both ladies attempted 5 triples and landed 4 clean triples- Oksana's lutz and loop v. Jill's Flip were the most difficult. But IIRC Jill also did an axel-3sal [albeit with a step-out] and 3toe-2toe. Oksana had none. Jill also had entrances, better spins and a spiral vs. Oksana's nearly non-existent spins and non-spiral. Jill had a better constructed layout to her program, too. Both had not-so-great music and as you said, bizzarre choreography.

    Anyway, JMHO, and it was close in my mind.
    It really just shows what a joke that Baiul was placed over Kerrigan, Chen, or even Sato in the LP to win that oft criticized OGM when we are even debating her OGM winning LP vs Trenary's outdated 1990 Worlds winning LP. The judges really dropped the ball on that one, it was probably one of the worst decisions ever.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    To make it easier, here are the links to watch the programs :
    1990 : Jill Trenary
    1991 : Kristi Yamaguchi
    1992 : Kristi Yamaguchi
    1993 : Oksana Baiul
    1994 : Yuka Sato
    1995 : Lu Chen
    1996 : Michelle Kwan
    1997 : Tara Lipinski
    1998 : Michelle Kwan
    1999 : Maria Butyrskaya

  4. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    706
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    To make it easier, here are the links to watch the programs :
    1990 : Jill Trenary
    1991 : Kristi Yamaguchi
    1992 : Kristi Yamaguchi
    1993 : Oksana Baiul
    1994 : Yuka Sato
    1995 : Lu Chen
    1996 : Michelle Kwan
    1997 : Tara Lipinski
    1998 : Michelle Kwan
    1999 : Maria Butyrskaya
    Thanks a lot! I will watch them tonight over a glass of wine.. Oh wait! That's how I got into trouble before... LOL...

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    454
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    If the LPs of non-winners are to be considered, there's a case for Kwan in 1995 being in the top 2 or 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHsorCH-690

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    If the LPs of non-winners are to be considered, there's a case for Kwan in 1995 being in the top 2 or 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHsorCH-690
    Lu Chen in 1996 is something much more special for me. And I am a Kwan fan.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    7,347
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Lu Chen in 1996 is something much more special for me. And I am a Kwan fan.
    ITA! IMO, duplicate golds were warranted for Kwan and Chen -- not because of a scandal, but because both were so wonderful in both portions of the event.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami, FL, USA
    Posts
    6,778
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I was frustrated to have to rank Lulu's '95 Worlds LP and MK's '98 Worlds LP, when Lulu's '96 LP and MK's '97 LP were both better IMO.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,998
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    If the LPs of non-winners are to be considered, there's a case for Kwan in 1995 being in the top 2 or 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHsorCH-690
    Top 2 or 3? I doubt it, hardly any of us have ranked Chen of 1995 in the top 2 or 3 and Chen was still the rightful winner ahead of Kwan's performances that year.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Minnesota
    Age
    25
    Posts
    8,995
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    791
    1. Kwan 1996
    2. Yamaguchi 1992
    3. Lipinski 1997
    4. Chen 1995
    5. Butyrskaya 1999
    6. Kwan 1998
    7. Yamaguchi 1991
    8. Sato 1994
    9. Trenary 1990
    10. Baiul 1993

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Missing Matsutake
    Posts
    2,737
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    1. Chen 1995-Toller Cranston choreography is to die for. This program was truly unique and orginal, I can't say we have seen anything quite like it before or since. Though extensive use of the arms can be seen as flailing, Chen and Cranston utilized arm movements along with full body movement to create an exotic and beautiful dance, there were transitions and footwork into most the jumps and the entire program is IMO an example of what good transitions should be. Her Rachmaninoff program a year later while beautiful and minimalistic was actually rather bare when compared to this.

    The rest of them I could care less about. Well, Maria's win was heart warming.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,847
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Lainerb View Post
    1. Chen 1995-Toller Cranston choreography is to die for. This program was truly unique and orginal, I can't say we have seen anything quite like it before or since. Though extensive use of the arms can be seen as flailing, Chen and Cranston utilized arm movements along with full body movement to create an exotic and beautiful dance, there were transitions and footwork into most the jumps and the entire program is IMO an example of what good transitions should be. Her Rachmaninoff program a year later while beautiful and minimalistic was actually rather bare when compared to this.

    The rest of them I could care less about. Well, Maria's win was heart warming.
    LOL that's what I was thinking when I found this thread!

    Btw, I thought Sandra Bezic choreographed this routine... Either way, every program Lu Chen did was sublime in terms of artistry.

  13. #33

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    454
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Top 2 or 3? I doubt it, hardly any of us have ranked Chen of 1995 in the top 2 or 3 and Chen was still the rightful winner ahead of Kwan's performances that year.
    I'll have to look at Chen's performance again, but the Eurosport guys seemed to think that Michelle had won the long program. There is little doubt that she was undermarked.

    ETA: OK, I watched Chen's performance. Her artistry was clearly superior (as was her footwork), but Kwan had 7 triples and Lulu only 5 (by my count). So under 6.0, Lulu deserved to win the LP. But Michelle should have been second. On reconsideration, Michelle should not be top 2 or 3, but there is a case for this order: Kwan 1996, Chen 1996, Chen 1995, Kwan 1997. Kwan 1995. Kristi probably belongs in there somewhere, but I haven't watched her programs recently.
    Last edited by giselle23; 07-01-2010 at 03:57 AM.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Searching for Sergei Verbillo's lost stache
    Posts
    715
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    my list would be something like:

    1) Kwan 1996- maintained power and speed required for this program, very exotic and mature for a 15 yr old lady. Did Lori nichol do the choreography? It was actually quite exquisite. Just wished she did the 3+3 like she did at '95 skate america though...

    2) Chen 1995- LOVED Bezic's work with Lulu. Mature and refined, brought out her musicality.
    3) Butyrskaya 1999- her hunger and drive to land every single triple was inspiring
    4) Lipinski 1997
    5) Yamaguchi 1991- loved this Samson+Delilah LP the most. Yama delivered 6 triples, amazing spins, had great character, despite singling the salchow...
    6) Sato 1994- not my favourite competitive skater, a bit bland to me, but her skate was nearly flawless, again, skating skills were the strongest of all the ladies.

    7) Kwan 1998- despite the obvious mistakes, i felt here, she skated more freely than she did in Nagano, with more power, speed, and ice coverage. Given the let down of the Olympics and not winning OG she probably felt she had nothing to lose.

    8)Yamaguchi 1992- i love Yama, and glad she landed the 3lz+3t, but for some reason didn't like her Malaguena as much as her previous LP. only glitch was a fall on the 3sal.

    9) Baiul- lack of combination jumps in her LP, triples were not as clean as it could have been, a glittery/princessy program. Sold it well though! (not much substance, though). SP was much better.

    bigggg gap***

    10) Trenary- jumps were just um...not good. Her doing a 2t+2t combo in the short should have left her out of the top 5 and therefore prevented a chance to win gold overall, IMO. She had VERY refined edges, however. Nice costume too.

  15. #35

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,552
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    7590
    OMG, I just watched Trenary's program . . . and now I have clubbed in Santorini in the late 70s, watched the pensive portion of an early 80's after school special about teen pregnancy, and clubbed in Miami in the late 80s with a brief detour to an Acapulco All-inclusive.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 07-01-2010 at 04:02 AM.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    22
    Posts
    12,998
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    I'll have to look at Chen's performance again, but the Eurosport guys seemed to think that Michelle had won the long program. There is little doubt that she was undermarked.

    ETA: OK, I watched Chen's performance. Her artistry was clearly superior (as was her footwork), but Kwan had 7 triples and Lulu only 5 (by my count). So under 6.0, Lulu deserved to win the LP. But Michelle should have been second. On reconsideration, Michelle should not be top 2 or 3, but there is a case for this order: Kwan 1996, Chen 1996, Chen 1995, Kwan 1997. Kwan 1995. Kristi probably belongs in there somewhere, but I haven't watched her programs recently.
    Yamaguchi's 91 and 92 winning LPs would easily beat Kwan in 1995. Her artistry was far superior to Kwan at that point in her career, as were her non jump elements, she had much more speed at that point, and with a triple lutz-triple toe combo she actually had more jump content in her 92 Worlds LP even with her fall on the triple salchow than Kwan. I am pretty sure Sato's 94 Worlds LP would beat Kwan from 95 too, and she actually might have beaten Chen too considering she had 6 triples, superior spins, superior footwork, and unmatched basic skating and speed, even though I much prefered Chen's 95 program artistically to Sato's of 94. And Maria of 1999 would also would easily beat Kwan of 95 as they had the same # of triples and again Maria's 99 Worlds LP would easily beat Kwan of 95 in artistry and all non jump elements. I would probably put Kwan's 95 Worlds LP between Irina and Tara's 97 LPs (behind Irina and over Tara) but that might be in part since I just dont like Tara's skating otherwise I might have put her ahead too. And really Kwan's artistry, maturity, power, and overall skating was so far superior in 98 than 95 it is hard to believe her own 98 performance wouldnt have easily beaten her 95 performance despite the 1 or 2 mistakes and her flawless skate and 7 triples of 95. Actually you could probably say the same about her 99 Worlds LP with just a couple small mistakes (despite that it placed a distant 2nd to an on fire Butyrskaya). And lastly I am not sure if it was even better than Bonaly or Chen from the 93 Worlds either.

    I agree Kwan probably deserved a medal at the 95 Worlds but IMO it was definitely not a top 5 Worlds LP of the whole decade either, probably not even top 10, I would guess top 15 once you take into account all the programs at Worlds in the 90s. Her program was nice all around with good choreography, good artistry for a young girl, decent spins and other elements, and 7 triples are very impressive. However she certainly didnt have top notch artistry, speed, power yet and there were better jumping performances too. And the only reason anyone would think anyone other than Chen should have won the 95 Worlds was the subconscious bias against her formed from judges underrating her for years already at that point. Plus everyone was just expecting Bobek to walk away with it that year after the short program, so were probably looking for some new exciting kid to take her place as the coronated winner instead rather than Mrs. 3rd place.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 07-01-2010 at 04:17 AM.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    AM I the only one who thinks that Surya Bonaly LP in 1993 was her best at Worlds, and should have won 1993 Worlds and would have won 1994 Worlds ?

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    55
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Sure she could have won 1993 worlds. But Sato deserved the one in 1994.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shirley View Post
    Sure she could have won 1993 worlds. But Sato deserved the one in 1994.
    I meant that, IMO, Surya's LP at 1993 Worlds could have won 1994 Worlds over Sato.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,847
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    AM I the only one who thinks that Surya Bonaly LP in 1993 was her best at Worlds, and should have won 1993 Worlds and would have won 1994 Worlds ?
    You are definitely not alone on that one. Surya was clearly the winner at 93 worlds, not yucky Baiul. Putting Baiul on top during her two year career at a bunch of events was perhaps the worst thing the judges ever did considering Baiul's lack of technical content and her love of two-footing jumps.

    Not sure about 94 worlds though. Considering it was in Japan and Yuka skated the SP and LP of her life, don't think it was going to happen. Nevertheless, Surya should have won the 93 title.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •