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  1. #1

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    If B/A had won Worlds 2009...

    Just wondering... if B/A had won Worlds in 2009 (which, if Tanith had not fallen in the CD, they very well might have won), how would it have affected 2010?

    Hard to imagine the World champs being dethroned at Nats--but who knows. How would B/A's status as reigning World Champs have affected the judging at Olys? Would they have been automatically put on the podium, and if so, who would have been left out?

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    If B/A had won Worlds in 2009 they would have remained U.S #1 and won silver at the 2010 Olympics behind Virtue & Moir, repeating their performance from 2006. An ailing and continually declining Domnina & Shabalin would have been pushed off in favor of an improving Davis & White.

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    It may have given them confidence that would've even affected their SS. They probably would've won US nats, too.

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    Even if they had won Worlds 09 they wouldn't have been on the podium at Oly's. Despite injuries and adjustments to programs for Ben's sake, their programs really deteriorated over a 4 year period. The year off hurt them and the coaching change hurt them.
    Without fear you cannot find courage

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    IIRC Tanith didn't fall at 2009 Worlds; it was 2008 Worlds where that happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBS Go Blue View Post
    IIRC Tanith didn't fall at 2009 Worlds; it was 2008 Worlds where that happened.
    Just what I was going to say. If they had won Worlds in 2008, I doubt they would have left Sphilband. How that would have impacted the next 2 years is anyone's guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    Just what I was going to say. If they had won Worlds in 2008, I doubt they would have left Sphilband. How that would have impacted the next 2 years is anyone's guess.
    Judging by Delschoes' marks, though, for their FD which was not their best of the season, it would appear that the judges would've favored them anyway over a mistake-free B/A at '08 Worlds. But without mistakes, I think B/A probably would've ended up in 2d and that may have set them up better for '09 Worlds.

    yes, that may have forced them to re-examine any coaching switch but my understanding was that they felt 'crowded' in Michigan. So, maybe they would've moved anyway?

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    I'm guessing that if Tanith hadn't fallen in the CD, B/A would have won Worlds in 2008. Remember, DelSchoes didn't win the FD - I don't think they were the judges' favorites. I think B/A were the favorites going in (since DomShabs had withdrawn) but Tanith's fall not only took them out of favor in the judges' eyes, it also affected the rest of their performances - they looked off the whole comp.

    I suspect if they won Worlds, they would have retired rather than continue on for the next 2 years in 'crowded' Canton. And I don't think they would have left Igor after winning a World title.

    Quote Originally Posted by MOIJTO View Post
    The year off hurt them and the coaching change hurt them.
    What year off? B/A missed Nats in '09 but I wouldn't call that a year off. They competed on the GP that season and competed at Worlds, and placed ahead of D/W. I do think they were on a downward slope, compared to D/W and V/M, but I also think their skating was better at Nats and the Olys than they got credit for. I think they should have won the CD at Nats this year, and they should have beaten DomShabs at the Olys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbie S View Post
    I'm guessing that if Tanith hadn't fallen in the CD, B/A would have won Worlds in 2008.

    What year off? B/A missed Nats in '09 but I wouldn't call that a year off. They
    Owning my disagree, they wouldn't have won in 08 either and you miss a nationals you miss a year give or take a GP.

    B/A were worthy American champions, but they were passed by better skaters since 06, leaving Igor hurt them big time!
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    I don't think B&A could have won Worlds in 2008 or 2009.

    In 2008, DelShols managed to pull 3 parts dances - which was what was needed for them to finally win a title. Plus there was a fresh new team that was on its high way - Tessa and Scott.

    If they managed to win in 2009 - I think they still would have been beaten by the D&W at national level and that at the international level they might have won bronze at Olympics instead of D&S.

    Still - 2 USA couples on the podium would be a little too controversial for our stoned judges hehehe

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    I'm really amazed by how all of you would easily throw away D/W's whole improvement and award B/A a national title just because they would have been world champions... I mean, do you all say that, cause you believe B/A deserved that title more or because of the dirty FS politics to give titles for previous titles and not for what was actually presented on the ice? Do you really think B/A had better dances in the Olympic season than D/W? just curious.

    I think if they had won the 2009 worlds (which IMHO D/W deserved more, but that was already discussed elsewhere, so whatever), they could have ended up third in Vancouver. There's no way they would have beaten D/W with the dances both teams had that season. Of course, assuming it would have been judged based on what was happening on the ice, not on the titles everyone had earned before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    Of course, assuming it would have been judged based on what was happening on the ice, not on the titles everyone had earned before.
    Are you sure that Nats and Olys were judged based on what happened on the ice, with D/W coming out ahead?

    I agree that D/W surpassed B/A in tech ability the past 2 seasons and I think D/W should have medaled at '09 Worlds (over V/M). But when you consider the judging system....both teams did Level 4 elements (except footwork , where both got Level 3....D/W may have gotten a Level 4 on one of them at Nats and Olys). It came down to GOEs and PCS, and like skating judging has always been, it's subjective. And unfortunately in ice dance, politiks play a role in scoring.

    I'm not saying D/W didn't deserve what they got....but I also think B/A were underscored/placed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Judging by Delschoes' marks, though, for their FD which was not their best of the season, it would appear that the judges would've favored them anyway over a mistake-free B/A at '08 Worlds. But without mistakes, I think B/A probably would've ended up in 2d and that may have set them up better for '09 Worlds.

    yes, that may have forced them to re-examine any coaching switch but my understanding was that they felt 'crowded' in Michigan. So, maybe they would've moved anyway?
    I dont think B&A would have won the 2009 Worlds either without their fall in the CD. They were only 4th in the OD and 3rd in the FD. The scores in those werent going to change that much just because they fell in the CD. They might have edged V&M for 2nd there, but even then I am not sure. If you add 3-4 points onto their score they are still a couple points short of 2nd.

    Yeah they were the favorites for the title after DomShabs withdrew but that doesnt mean things play out that way. Ice dance judges are unpredictable at the best of times. DelSchoes are not usually the judges favorites but they sure seemed to be that week.

    Of course whether B/A finished 2nd or 3rd might have determined whether they left Michigan too, as if they finished 2nd over V&M they might have still felt like the #1 team there? Who knows really.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 06-14-2010 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    I'm really amazed by how all of you would easily throw away D/W's whole improvement and award B/A a national title just because they would have been world champions... I mean, do you all say that, cause you believe B/A deserved that title more or because of the dirty FS politics to give titles for previous titles and not for what was actually presented on the ice? Do you really think B/A had better dances in the Olympic season than D/W? just curious.

    I think if they had won the 2009 worlds (which IMHO D/W deserved more, but that was already discussed elsewhere, so whatever), they could have ended up third in Vancouver. There's no way they would have beaten D/W with the dances both teams had that season. Of course, assuming it would have been judged based on what was happening on the ice, not on the titles everyone had earned before.
    I dont want to get into a drawn out debate which team was truly better last year as that seems to be a touchy subject here. I dont think the gap between them was anywhere near what the marks was, I will just put it that way.

    The way ice dancing works if B/A were the reigning World Champions they almost certainly would have been kept as the #1 American. What country demotes a reigning World Champion to #2 in their own country in an Olympic year behind a team that had never yet medaled at Worlds. It just wouldnt happen. Especialy when the two teams are close in ability.

    As it was with B/A's failure again to win the elusive World title, and D/W improving and scoring so well on the GP circuit (and higher than B/A last fall) the USFSA probably felt it was time to go in a new direction. I cant imagine the change being made in the U.S last year if B/A were the reigning World Champions though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The way ice dancing works if B/A were the reigning World Champions they almost certainly would have been kept as the #1 American. What country demotes a reigning World Champion to #2 in their own country in an Olympic year behind a team that had never yet medaled at Worlds. It just wouldnt happen. Especialy when the two teams are close in ability.
    But then again, that only means FS is full of political games and titles are given based on who has better previous achievements, which is somehow depressing, don't you think? I mean, I get the point, it's possible it would have happened that way, but well, perhaps I'm just that naive little believer who foolishly thinks it should be judged by what's happening on the ice...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOIJTO View Post
    leaving Igor hurt them big time!
    Watching the way Tanith and Ben handled themselves this season, and their attitude towards competition/each other/life in general- I have to argue that the move to PA was a good thing. Tanith in particular seemed happier and healthier than ever after the initial bumps in the road after the coaching shake up, and that is going to sustain her much longer than a world title would have.

    Whomever said Igor/Marina/Tanith/Ben did not know how to handle the success of their careers early on was exactly right, IMO. I think loosing T/B gave Igor the motivation to be a smarter coach (esp with CD's) Davis and White and Virtue and Moir owe Tanith and Ben a thank you for sure... and I am so pleased that the press (namely Christine Brennen and her article) noticed that around the Olympics. I am not sure what would have happened to any of those teams if Tanith and Ben had stayed in Canton

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    But then again, that only means FS is full of political games and titles are given based on who has better previous achievements, which is somehow depressing, don't you think? I mean, I get the point, it's possible it would have happened that way, but well, perhaps I'm just that naive little believer who foolishly thinks it should be judged by what's happening on the ice...
    Ice dancing judging has improved since the advent of COP, but it will probably always be political to a certain degree. In the end though I dont think the USFSA would demote a reigning World Champion to their #2 skater in any of the 4 disciplines going into an Olympics though, especialy in favor of someone who hasnt won a World medal of any color yet, no matter how good they are. I know Abbott beat Lysacek at Nationals but he only did since he so far outskated Evan there the judges had no choice. Evan was still their #1 politcally by far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Judging by Delschoes' marks, though, for their FD which was not their best of the season, it would appear that the judges would've favored them anyway over a mistake-free B/A at '08 Worlds.
    I disagree. We will never know with any certainty, but going into Worlds in 08 B/A were the favorites to win IIRC. Del/S had problems with The PIano all season - they changed quite a lot of it by Worlds.

    Falling in the CD really cost B/A because [1] it took them out of contention for a medal in the judges' minds [meaning their marks would be lower] and [2] that fall obviously affected their skating in the OD especially - their usual confidence was not there.

    I think if they hadnt fallen, their marks in the OD and FD would have been higher - high enough for them to win. Del/S 2nd, V/M 3rd. Del/S got the benefit of the fall because they then became the forerunners and their marks were higher than they would have been otherwise. I know Casken will disagree but IMO Del/S won that year by default. B/A were out of it with the fall, Dom/S werent there, V/M were "too young" - Del/S had been around for a long time, many thought they were undermarked most of their career - it was "their turn" in a way.

    But had B/A really skated well, I still believe 08 would have been their year. Having just won the Gold, they never would have left S/Z - although one of the other teams might have, we'll never know.

    The reigning WGM is always considered a frontrunner, so that would have put them in good shape in 09 too. Considering all the injuries that year, I am fairly sure they would have won again in 09. 2 time WGM would always be a favorite for OGM. So that fall really cost them big-time IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    What country demotes a reigning World Champion to #2 in their own country in an Olympic year behind a team that had never yet medaled at Worlds. It just wouldnt happen. Especialy when the two teams are close in ability.
    While Abbott was the reining US Champion, Lysacek, the reigning world champion, was in his own country in an Olympic year behind a skater that had never yet medaled at Worlds.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSGP21 View Post
    Davis and White and Virtue and Moir owe Tanith and Ben a thank you for sure... and I am so pleased that the press (namely Christine Brennen and her article) noticed that around the Olympics.
    I've always felt that Tanith and Ben helped to pave the way for V/M and D/W to climb up the podium. Not just with their international success but also in terms of being role models and contributing to the motivational environment in Canton. They might not have won a medal in Vancouver but they certainly played a part in V/M and D/W's development and the success that came with it.

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