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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    So much for the poor Paul wuzrobbed in Albertville cries (which btw I never thought he was anyway). He didnt even deserve to be at the Olympics in the first place. He and his fans should be blessed with his silver medal.
    It's an endless debate about who deserves an olympic spot : the one who is potentially the best or the one who skated better at Nationals ?
    Ask FFSG (french fed) !
    Anyway, I'm happy with his silver medal, but think it wouldn't have been a scandal if he was gold medalist !

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    Todd could beat Elvis in an era when judges are looking beyond the jumps.
    He could, but he didn't and didn't deserve to. He just never skated well enough at the big events except for 1996 Worlds.

    And judges were looking beyond the jumps - that's why Kwan beat Lipinski and Slutskaya most times with lesser jumps and it wasn't until Slutskaya improved the rest of her skating that she strated beating Kwan. And that's why Chen was the Nagano bronze medalist, not Slutskaya. And that's why Bonaly was never a world champion.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    The point is that sometimes successes have to do with timing and luck. Evan, without a consistent quad, thrived at a time when it wasn't a mere jumpfest, but his fate could have turned out differently in a different era, say, in 2002. Todd could beat Elvis in an era when judges are looking beyond the jumps.
    The point is that you ignored the 3 Olympics cycles when Todd was not geriatric in body and technical content but did nothing to progress the sport, and focused exclusively on the OGM so you could come to your own closed minded conclusion that "Todd Eldredge was unlucky," which I find very disrespectful to skaters like Brian Orser and Midori Ito, who were the first to perform 3A in Olympic competition, and Kurt Brown, the first to perform the 4T in World competition, that did far more than just jumps but were not lucky enough to win the OGM although they changed the sport.

    Todd was outstandingly typical for his time, and nothing more.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-03-2010 at 11:04 AM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    He could, but he didn't and didn't deserve to. He just never skated well enough at the big events except for 1996 Worlds.

    And judges were looking beyond the jumps - that's why Kwan beat Lipinski and Slutskaya most times with lesser jumps and it wasn't until Slutskaya improved the rest of her skating that she strated beating Kwan. And that's why Chen was the Nagano bronze medalist, not Slutskaya. And that's why Bonaly was never a world champion.
    And that's why Oksana Baiul is an OGM !

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    The point is that you ignored the 3 Olympics cycles when Todd was not geriatric in body and technical content but did nothing to progress the sport, and focused exclusively on the OGM so you could come to your own closed minded conclusion that "Todd Eldredge was unlucky," which I find very disrespectful to skaters like Brian Orser and Midori Ito, who were the first to perform 3A in Olympic competition, and Kurt Brown, the first to perform the 4T in World competition, that did far more than just jumps but were not lucky enough to win the OGM although they changed the sport.

    Todd was outstandingly typical for his time, and nothing more.
    Saying someone is unlucky has nothing to do with being disrespectful to other skaters. Many skaters are or were lucky and unlucky in different ways.

    FWIW, Evan didn't exactly change the sport either.

    And who is Kurt Brown? That must be some skater I missed in the Olympics.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    He could, but he didn't and didn't deserve to. He just never skated well enough at the big events except for 1996 Worlds.

    And judges were looking beyond the jumps - that's why Kwan beat Lipinski and Slutskaya most times with lesser jumps and it wasn't until Slutskaya improved the rest of her skating that she strated beating Kwan. And that's why Chen was the Nagano bronze medalist, not Slutskaya. And that's why Bonaly was never a world champion.
    With Elvis' low landings he would have gotten negative goe in almost every jump under cop. And his spin scores would have been lower too.

    I get that many don't like Todd and find every chance to or when he comes up. I am not a fan of his skating either. But skating wise he's similar enough to Evan (fast, same elements to the same type of music over and over, fighter mentality) Todd could have done better had he been skating post-2006, when jumping risks were not rewarded as much and the quad monkey could be off his back.

    Now all the Todd haters are coming out of the woodwork.
    Last edited by jlai; 06-03-2010 at 03:30 PM.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    And who is Kurt Brown? That must be some skater I missed in the Olympics.
    Kurt, he landed the first quad in World competition and won 4 World Championships. He's a commentator now. His last interview with Patrick Chan was

    This guy named Todd Eldredge, I looked him up. He won a World Championship in the mid-90's. There is a lot about him being beaten by an openly gay figure skater named Rudy Galindo at US Nationals the same year and some contraversy about him being on the Olympic team in 1992 (although he was the reigning Bronze Medalist from the previous World Championships). Todd apparently was the male equivalent of Jill Trenary, he was hurt when figures were eliminated because he never had technical content greater than what was performed at the 1988 Olympics. Fortunately for him, the gap between the 1988 Olympic content and the 1998 Olympic content was not as large as it was for the women, where only Liz Manley and Midori Ito would have been competitive in 1998. Todd attended 3 Olympics but never medaled, placing 10th (1992), 4th (1998), and 6th (2002). Todd was expected to medal at least in 1992, being the reigning World Bronze Medalist, and 1998, the Olympic cycle when he won his World Championship; he did not have the technical content to be competitive in 2002 since he never mastered a quad jump, which at least one skater from the Olympic podium landed in every Olympics since 1998.

    There is a lot about him on Wikipedia, which is surprising when he really is only about as decorated as Charlie Tickner, who was at the top of the sport for only 4 years and won just about as much as Todd did in 11-12 years, except Charlie won an Olympic Medal.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-03-2010 at 04:25 PM.

  8. #48
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    Now all the Todd haters are coming out of the woodwork.
    See what I mean?

  9. #49

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    If someone quotes himself, does that mean nobody is listening to him or he is listening to nobody else?

  10. #50
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    Back to Mark Mitchell. I would love to hear what he would respond if someone asked him about 1992.

  11. #51

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    Mitchell has had more than his share of tough luck. The most publicized episode remains the 1992 Olympic snub, when he was bumped after the nationals from the American team heading to Albertville, France, in order to make room for the injured Todd Eldredge. Search for Confidence

    Gladstone [Mark's Coach] said that situation, "just about destroyed him." But in the last few months, with the aid of a support psychologist, Mitchell has been dealing with the disappointments.

    "About a week and a half ago, he told me it was time to get on with my life and stop feeling sorry for myself," said Mitchell, who would not divulge the name of the psychologist. "I've been searching all along to find my confidence."
    FIGURE SKATING; Mitchell Receives a Mark of Perfection: NYT March 11, 1993

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    FWIW, Evan didn't exactly change the sport either.
    I think Evan's World and Olympic wins force skaters to evaluate how they approach the current judging system. Any male skater now that think only of quad, quad, quad is an idiot.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    I think Evan's World and Olympic wins force skaters to evaluate how they approach the current judging system. Any male skater now that think only of quad, quad, quad is an idiot.
    Every skater has made an impact in the sport. If Evan had come up with some truly creative choreography or invented a new move he would have changed the sport in the meaning we were originally discussing.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    I think Evan's World and Olympic wins force skaters to evaluate how they approach the current judging system. Any male skater now that think only of quad, quad, quad is an idiot.
    Indeed, Evan did do that, and there are usually only two kinds of skaters that are remembered, the Winners and the Innovators. Evan got the medal according to the rules and is the Winner a la Scott Hamilton, Trixie Schuba, Annett Poezsch, Oksana Baiul, etc. It is not pretty, but even Janet Lynn said that Trixie won by the rules. Furthermore, Midori Ito knew she was not a strong medal contenter at the 1988 Olympics because of her compulsory figures, but she would have been remembered for that performance alone.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-03-2010 at 07:16 PM.

  15. #55
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    I know I already alluded to Mark Mitchell in 1994.

    The Lillehamer team was Boitano and Davis. Was Scott Davis better than Mark Mitchell? Everytime I recall seeing Davis skate, it was a disaster. So, was Mitchell worse than that? IIRC, Mitchell was 4th in Prague '93 Worlds and Davis was 6th?

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    Todd was very generic and boring, but he was a fantastic jumper. I don't know where the comparison with Trenary comes from.
    and although he never mastered the quad his jumps were always much better than Goebel's, Weiss' or Lysacek's will ever be. He had a 3A to die for

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    If Todd had been a real competitor, then he would have been doing the 4T at 21 years old, 3 years after it had been introduced to competition, rather than at 31 years old, when skaters were doing 2 kinds of quad in one program.
    I thought Todd was training the quad prior to that, but just couldn't get it consistent enough to put in competition? As it was, he did try the quad in his 1998 Nationals freeskate but alas, he fell on it.
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I know I already alluded to Mark Mitchell in 1994.

    The Lillehamer team was Boitano and Davis. Was Scott Davis better than Mark Mitchell?
    He was at Nationals.

    And so was Aren Nielsen, which is why Nielsen got to go to 1994 Worlds and Eldredge and Mitchell did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheylana View Post
    I thought Todd was training the quad prior to that, but just couldn't get it consistent enough to put in competition? As it was, he did try the quad in his 1998 Nationals freeskate but alas, he fell on it.
    He also tried the quad in his 1998 Worlds freeskate but alas he fell on it.

    Fortunately for him, Plushenko tried and fell on two quads that day.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I know I already alluded to Mark Mitchell in 1994.

    The Lillehamer team was Boitano and Davis. Was Scott Davis better than Mark Mitchell? Everytime I recall seeing Davis skate, it was a disaster. So, was Mitchell worse than that? IIRC, Mitchell was 4th in Prague '93 Worlds and Davis was 6th?
    Scott Davis landed two 3axels at 1994 Nationals. Mark had his problems. Wasn't there a back injury plus his less than ideal competitive fire? They had totally different styles. Davis was more sparkly and showy, and Mitchell was just classic beautiful skating. Davis also had the sex factor going that year. (and straight factor most importantly to the judges I bet) Mark was a disaster at 94 Nats, so yes Davis was better at that competition. But overall, it just depends what you are looking for.

    I never really got into Eldredge's skating. His jumps were not pretty. His landings seemed low or hunched or his free leg would check forward and then go back. It was weird and ugly. And for all his spinning ability, I was never impressed with even one position he hit. He was like Tonia Kwiatkowski only more consistent. Not alot to really like, but a solid, conservative, hard worker who got the job done.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I know I already alluded to Mark Mitchell in 1994.

    The Lillehamer team was Boitano and Davis. Was Scott Davis better than Mark Mitchell? Everytime I recall seeing Davis skate, it was a disaster. So, was Mitchell worse than that? IIRC, Mitchell was 4th in Prague '93 Worlds and Davis was 6th?
    Mark skated terribly at the 94 Nationals. Davis of course skated brilliantly and beat Boitano who skated very well himself with only one mistake. The way both skated at Nationals that year of course Scott was going to make the team and Mark was not. How the judges would have scored if Mark, Todd, Boitano, and David had all skated very well is anyones guess.

    Davis often skated well at Nationals only to bomb at the internationals. Mark could hardly ever buy a clean performance even at Nationals.

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