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  1. #21
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    I have nothing against the other guys (I love Kurt), but I guess to each his own. I personally don't think Todd is boring. he has had many exciting programs (First Knight, Independence Day, The Glory, 1492, Lord of the Rings, Gettysburg ... I could go on and on)). Sadly, you don't seem to have any appreciation for them. I would appreciate it you would stop ripping him to shreds.

    I did like Timmy's "An American in Paris." I still maintain that quads are not everything, and too much has been made of them at the expense of other elements in a balanced program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I like Mark's skating, great choreography and field moves, but his jumps were rather low.
    That might be true on its own, or when you compare his jumps to Bowman or Petrenko, but absolutely not true when comparing them to Wylie's which at most times barely left the ground.

    Neither skaters were blessed with the jumps especially 3/3s but Mitchell could do clean jumps and combinations whereas Wylie could not even pull off a non-shaky 3toe2toe at most times.

    One thing that killed Mitchell was possibly his less ambitious layout. Wylie was attempting 2 3axels and 2 3lutzes then even if he didn't have the 3loop.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    . . . Even when the Red Sea was parted for Eldredge, he still did not know how to walk through a la Lysacek.
    Sorry but when during Eldredge's career was there this huge opening at the top for him to take advantage of. In his younger years Petrenko and Browning ruled with an iron grip and when the skating became a splatfest at the 92 Games he was hurt. In 93 and 94 he went through his own slump which most athletes go through at some point. From 95-98 Stojko was a killer competitor, athlete, and technical skater, who rightly or wrongly was enormously respected by judges (despite his beliefs at the time), fans, skating experts, during the time and was very hard to beat. Kulik and Urmanov on their day were almost unbeatable even if they inconsistently had those days. Then in his later year prime Yagudin and prime Plushenko, nuff said.

    The year a big opening did come for him to win Worlds in 1996 he took it. He didnt really have any other opportunities to be honest. His only real opportunity to win an Olympic medal was 98 and unfortunately everyone had a bad day and his came on the wrong one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paskatefan View Post
    Why don't you get over your resentment of Todd already? You've done this time and time again! I wish he had won an Olympic medal (and I feel the same way for Kurt). Apart from the lack of that Olympic medal, he has had a distinguished career (6 US titles, 5 Skate America Titles, 6 world medals, etc.), with many performances earning standing ovations. That's not chicken feed. quads are not everything, either. Give me balanced skating anyday!
    Impressive accomplishments - but if you put things into context, he couldn't even beat Stojko at most times

    Balanced skating is very important but his skating is so monotonous and he never bothered to express the beat or tone of the music. He was worse than Totmanina there. (and I would put Wylie in the same category, but on a higher artistic level - Wylie had great moves and attention to detail but his programs are all the same like Eldredge)

    I would take a no-world-title Bowman over Eldredge in a second. And Mitchell. And Weiss. And Savoie. And Jahnke.

  5. #25
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    He couldnt beat Stojko since the judges wouldnt let him barring something miracelous. At the 98 Grand Prix final Eldredge skated cleanly and the judges still placed him behind Stojko even falling on his quad attempt. At the 97 Grand Prix final Stojko landed a quad but fell on a triple axel, stepped out of a triple loop, and was still placed over a clean Eldredge. At the 95 Worlds both had a fall and no quad, and Eldredge through in his 2nd triple axel after falling on it, and he still couldnt beat Stojko. Both skated cleanly in the short program of the Olympics and Stojko was again placed ahead. It is not his fault the judges viewed Stojko so highly that even a quadless Stojko was rated higher than a clean Eldredge.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Impressive accomplishments - but if you put things into context, he couldn't even beat Stojko at most times

    Balanced skating is very important but his skating is so monotonous and he never bothered to express the beat or tone of the music. He was worse than Totmanina there. (and I would put Wylie in the same category, but on a higher artistic level - Wylie had great moves and attention to detail but his programs are all the same like Eldredge)
    Really? The Bach program was the same as "Mission Impossible" and "Schindler's List" and and and . . . I realize Paul reused a lot of the same moves, but to say his programs were all the same is to stretch the truth to the breaking point.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    His only real opportunity to win an Olympic medal was 98 and unfortunately everyone had a bad day and his came on the wrong one.
    There you go.

    And to be honest he had what it took to win an Olympic medal in all the Olympics he went to.

    In 1992, the bronze would have been within reach or even silver, especially since everyone skated poorly.

    In 1998, he could go as high as silver when Stojko was injured, Yagudin was sick and Urmanov couldn't even skate.

    In 2002, if he didn't go for the quad in the sp and went for a clean sp instead with a 3/3, he would have been in medal contention and probably beat Goebel the way he did at 2001 Worlds.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    Really? The Bach program was the same as "Mission Impossible" and "Schindler's List" and . . . I realize Paul reused a lot of the same moves, but to say his programs were all the same is to stretch the truth to the breaking point.
    Most of his competitive programs left the same impression yes.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Sorry but when during Eldredge's career was there this huge opening at the top for him to take advantage of. In his younger years Petrenko and Browning ruled with an iron grip and when the skating became a splatfest at the 92 Games he was hurt. In 93 and 94 he went through his own slump which most athletes go through at some point. From 95-98 Stojko was a killer competitor, athlete, and technical skater, who rightly or wrongly was enormously respected by judges (despite his beliefs at the time), fans, skating experts, during the time and was very hard to beat. Kulik and Urmanov on their day were almost unbeatable even if they inconsistently had those days. Then in his later year prime Yagudin and prime Plushenko, nuff said.

    The year a big opening did come for him to win Worlds in 1996 he took it. He didnt really have any other opportunities to be honest. His only real opportunity to win an Olympic medal was 98 and unfortunately everyone had a bad day and his came on the wrong one.
    Todd could have if he had ever been INNOVATIVE and pushed the sport, and the 1991 World Bronze was a freakin engraved invitation to the top of the sport.

    Of course, I actually like what you describe, , because it only highlights that he received far more attention than due for only doing the minimum expected.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-02-2010 at 04:41 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    There you go.

    And to be honest he had what it took to win an Olympic medal in all the Olympics he went to.

    In 1992, the bronze would have been within reach or even silver, especially since everyone skated poorly.

    In 1998, he could go as high as silver when Stojko was injured, Yagudin was sick and Urmanov couldn't even skate.

    In 2002, if he didn't go for the quad in the sp and went for a clean sp instead with a 3/3, he would have been in medal contention and probably beat Goebel the way he did at 2001 Worlds.
    I dont think he was going to beat Goebel at the 2002 Games even if he skated his best. Goebel did not all 3 of his quads at the 2001 Worlds, he missed one in the LP which helped Todd take the bronze. Goebel's presentation had also improved since the 2001 Worlds. At the Nationals when he lost to Todd he only made 1 quad I believe. At the Grand Prix final that year Todd skated as well as he possibly could minus a fall on the quad attempt in the last free program and couldnt beat Goebel.

    92 I would agree if he were healthy but he wasnt. The short he would have been 2nd or 3rd without falling on the double axel near the end. However I dont think he could have skated a strong enough long program to win a medal at that point in time.

    98 I agree he could have easily won the silver but I think that was his only clear opportunity.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    Really? The Bach program was the same as "Mission Impossible" and "Schindler's List" and . . . I realize Paul reused a lot of the same moves, but to say his programs were all the same is to stretch the truth to the breaking point.
    You don't see the thematic similarities between La Valse and Touch Me? A song that's a tribute to a waltz and a song about blackjack? Open your mind yo.

    Seriously, we're talking about the skater that made me a diehard figure skating fan in the first place, so I can't really be objective but...really? I wish a lot of today's skaters displayed the same "sameness" that Paul allegedly showed during his career.
    The audience I am trying to reach are champion figure skaters. I think they need me the most. -- Morrissey

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Todd could have if he had ever been INNOVATIVE and pushed the sport, and the 1991 World Bronze was a freakin engraved invitation to the top of the sport.

    Of course, I actually like what you describe, , because it only highlights that he received far more attention than due.
    He really needed to capatilize on his 91 bronze and make a push to the top then and there while other hungry young pretenders were close behind him. Instead after his injuries in 92 legtimately hampering him he let himself slide off course for awhile and allowed guys like Stojko and Urmanov to reach the top before him and get the clout and recognition as the new leaders of the next generation. I think that is what hurt him the most. Even when he won his World title I dont think he was ever considered the dominant skater out there.

    In a way it is hilarious to think that Nancy Kerrigan of all people who was in a similar situation as the 91 World bronze medalist did a far better job of capatilizing on her new window of opportunity (competitively speaking) in many ways in the preceding years despite her failure to win a World/Olympic title than Todd himself did. Despite her critics and consistency issues she atleast scraped through decent enough performances to capatilize when Harding or Ito fell apart, and set herself up as the one to beat after Kristi's retirement, won 2 Olympic medals, and apart from the 93 Worlds managed to still stumble her way through to medals that were available to her.

    And yes he was kind of boring too, despite his excellent fundmentals as a skater. And yeah he probably does get alot more attention than he deserves for someone who was never close to a dominant skater. He won his World title in a year he didnt even win Nationals, was 3rd at one of his Grand Prix events won by Zagarodniuk, and was dead last or 2nd last at the Grand Prix final I think.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The year a big opening did come for him to win Worlds in 1996 he took it. He didnt really have any other opportunities to be honest. His only real opportunity to win an Olympic medal was 98 and unfortunately everyone had a bad day and his came on the wrong one.
    I agree he didn't have a ton of opportunities but he did also have a big opportunity to win a second World title in 1998, since the top 3 didn't show up. Nevertheless he had a big mistake in the short (I think he fell on a jump) which gave Yagudin the World title, even though Eldredge won the freeskate.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Todd earned the U.S 3 spots in the first place though. If he felt he was healthy enough to compete he deserved to go. The team should have been Bowman, Eldredge, and Mitchell. Mitchell actually should have been the U.S Champion that year over Bowman IMHO.
    I don't really have a problem with Todd getting the spot, assuming he felt he was healthy enough (although the media certainly didn't extend the same courtesy for MK, who helped the US get 3 spots for the 2006 Olympics and the media practically had a meltdown when she "stole" Emily's Olympic spot).
    Last edited by Cheylana; 06-02-2010 at 08:30 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Yeah I forgot about the 98 Worlds. Definitely a huge chance blown there. What a watershed year on his career. He could have been an Olympic silver medalist and 2 time World Champion rather than 0 time Olympic medaliast and 1 time World Champion.

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    I don't even think Eldredge deserved his world title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Most of his competitive programs left the same impression yes.
    You can say the same about Evan.

    The difference between the two is that Evan came in at a time when quad mattered less, and that jump was what Todd never conquered.

    Had Todd competed post-2006 he could have been as successful as Evan.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I don't even think Eldredge deserved his world title.
    I prefer Kulik to Eldredge but he did not deserve to win that night. His Alladin program was immature, and he made a key mistake when he aborted the 2nd triple-triple combo (Eldredge had done two, as had Galindo, Stojko had done a quad) and then repeated the triple flip twice neither in combination. The funny thing is even if he had placed only 4th in the long program he would have still won silver overall that night, but no way did he deserve 1st in the long program and the win that night. It was great to see him actually skate well at a World Championships for once but his program and performance just werent strong enough that night to win. Had he duplicated his Centennial On Ice performance he probably would have won even with that cheesy Alladin number.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    You can say the same about Evan.

    The difference between the two is that Evan came in at a time when quad mattered less, and that jump was what Todd never conquered.

    Had Todd competed post-2006 he could have been as successful as Evan.
    I dont the quad neccessarily matters less now so much. It is just the mens field is weak (as far as top end quality/consistency goes) and there are hardly any men landings quads with any consistency in addition to the other jumps, with some semblance of good programs and overall skating to go with it. Hence why guys can win without the quad. The best guy doing a quad and consistently landing other jumps today is Plushenko who is 27 year olds, has gone through multiple surgeries, and is a shadow of the skater he used to be, and still would have won the Olympics with one less shaky landing or one slight jump layout revision. I dont think you would see any of the performances from the 2008 Worlds, 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2010 Worlds, apart from possibly Buttle's winning performances in 2008 and probably Takahashi's winning performance from the 2010 Worlds even on the podium at say the 2001 Worlds, 2002 Olympics, or 2004 Worlds. If you had Plushenko near his prime, Takahashi a bit more consistent, Lambiel a bit more consistent, you would never see quadless winners and even very few medalists, especialy amongst the current crop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    You can say the same about Evan.

    The difference between the two is that Evan came in at a time when quad mattered less, and that jump was what Todd never conquered.

    Had Todd competed post-2006 he could have been as successful as Evan.
    8 of 9 Olympic Medalist at the 1992, 1994, and 1998 Olympic Games earned there medals without a quad and a majority did not even have clean programs.

    At the 2002 Olympics, Todd's technical content was dated, which should have been expected since he was 31 years old.

    If Todd had been a real competitor, then he would have been doing the 4T at 21 years old, 3 years after it had been introduced to competition, rather than at 31 years old, when skaters were doing 2 kinds of quad in one program.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    At the 2002 Olympics, Todd's technical content was dated, which should have been expected since he was 31 years old.
    The point is that sometimes successes have to do with timing and luck. Evan, without a consistent quad, thrived at a time when it wasn't a mere jumpfest, but his fate could have turned out differently in a different era, say, in 2002. Todd could beat Elvis in an era when judges are looking beyond the jumps.

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