- performing 3Lz, 3F, 3Lp, 3T, 3S, and 2A with combinations, but still being at risk of loosing to somebody performing 3F, two 3T, two 3S, and 2A.
- devoting time to figures rather than artistic development.
- no role models for constructing a high technical content artistic program
Here is Tonya Harding:
Tonya Harding - 1989 Skate America Long Program
Here is Yu Na Kim:
Yu Na - 2009 Skate America Long Program
There age difference is about one month. Yu Na had 20 years of freeskaters, including skaters that skated to the same music like Michelle Kwan and Midori Ito, to look to for program construction. Her technical content was behind Tonya's, Kim leaving out the 3Lp while Tonya leaving out the 3A, although Yu Na was in no danger of loosing to skater with comparable content to Jill Trenary. Yu Na's competition did not include figures, so she had to put greater emphasis on choreography and interpretation to set her apart from the field.
I do not see any justification for saying Tonya was a lesser skater, and, in fact, Tonya had a skill set that is completely unknown to likes of Yu Na Kim.
Last edited by bardtoob; 06-11-2010 at 10:37 AM.
Tonya was actually reasonably consistent as a skater and jumper from 86-91. Just bad luck for her to be held down by figures and the combination of U.S depth and the "wait your turn" protocal of skating back then from 86-88. Then in 89 to be screwed over at Nationals. 1990 after a strong season and all the potential for Worlds again to get sick at the U.S Nationals and miss Worlds again.
Another ironic thing was Tonya was hurt by figures early in her career but it would have helped her later on had figures stayed. She was better at figures than all of Ito, Yamaguchi, or Kerrigan.
I know people say she sabatoged her own career and huge talent and to some extent that is true of course, but she also is a very unlucky skater in many regards too IMHO.
People always gripe about Tonya's consistency, well Midori's consistency began falling apart in the 1990-91 season, about one year before Tonya's consistency began to fall apart, and Midori is one year older.
Furthermore, I contend that Midori and Tonya peaked between 1986 and 1990, but Tonya could not get out of US to Worlds while Midori could get out of Japan to Worlds.
Midori had been at the world scene stage for many seasons before Tonya, so she had that excuse when she wasn't as consistent.
Besides that, in the 92 season Midori was in truly unbeatable form. It just happened that at the Olympics everything went wrong for her and wasn't that strong mentally
If we consider their brief pro careers, midori also trumps tonya in the consistency department by a long way
Tonya also had some other barriers to overcome. She did not come from an area with a strong history of top skaters like Boston, New York, or California and she did not have a high profile coach like Carlo Fassi, Frank Carol, or CHJ. Furthermore, she was being sent to Senior International events where the results were sometimes just ridiculous.
Tonya Harding 1986 Skate America Freeskate
and the LP of the overall winner:
Tiffany Chin - 1986 Skate America Long Program
Midori lost to Yamaguchi at 1990 Skate America and the Midori of 1991 Trophy Lalique was no where near as confident or reliable as the Midori of NHK 1989.Besides that, in the 92 season Midori was in truly unbeatable form. It just happened that at the Olympics everything went wrong for her and wasn't that strong mentally . . .
If you look at Midori's pro performances, she was not very consistent ... sorry to say nothing like Yamaguchi during her pro career. Midori had lost a lot of heart and was convinced that she was not an elegant skater.If we consider their brief pro careers, midori also trumps tonya in the consistency department by a long way
Last edited by bardtoob; 06-11-2010 at 01:12 PM.
I really think it took a psychological toll on her, she lost a lot of motivation, and she probably felt she had nothing to lose by the criminal turn her path took in late '93/early '94. I'm not excusing her, just analyzing it.
ETA - I agree with the posts that stated it was easier for Midori to get out of JPN and compete at Worlds than it was for Tonya to do the same in the US
Tonya should probably not have skated to "People Are Still Having Sex". if she wanted to make points with TPTB
Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 06-11-2010 at 11:26 PM.
Oh, man. That triple lutz was like a 747 taking off and landing. Probably the best program overall that Tonya ever did, and one of my favorite shorts of all time.Anyway, have you seen her 93 SA sp? One of the best 6.0 sp performances ever. One of the best Lutz combos ever, and even her spirals are great in this program.
IMO, Tonya was better than Ito. Tonya didn't flutz, or wrap. Tonya was pretty raw, but she had musicality, whereas I found Ito to be pretty wooden.
Tonya's 1993 Skate America SP
The hang time on the flying sit is
And the lutz combo is a-m-a-z-i-n-g!
And you're right-the spirals are better than she did in previous years.
Ito flutzed? I have never heard that one before
One thing she had over Ito, from the purist point of view, was the form of her jumps as she was tight in the air. Maybe, I'm really subjective, but Midori's "wrap" doesn't bother me like other wraps
Ito attempted to be musical later in her career and I think she did a nice job. There was honesty and sincerity about her skating. Tonya always skated to the same powerhouse music and I've noticed that it's her who was wooden as the years went past. She was much more musical as a younger skater
BTW, I consider Tonya a terrific skater. She's my favorite american skater ever, in any discipline.
I loved both Tonya's programs in the 93-94 season. She skated with so much for musicality than before. And for the people who always rag on Tonya for her ugly dresses, I think she looked gorgeous in this costume!
Tonya had strong SS too but obviously she wasn't a strong all around skater. Still, her jumping technique was absolutely incredible and there isn't anybody skating today that comes anywhere close to it.
Sorry to bring this thread back up, but does anyone know what combination Tonya used in her 1987/1988 in the sp? I know she had previously done 3f/2r in 1985, but did she keep it all the way through until 1988? After they removed the "2r rule" she went to 3z/2t and later 3a/2t.
^ That is a good question. There is footage of Midori's SP from NHK 1987, so there must be footage of Tonya's SP somewhere.
Tonya finished 3rd, behind Katarina and Midori at 1987 NHK.
ETA: At the beginning of this clip, you can see Tonya's SP presentation scores while she is in the K&C with her coach. They look very happy.
Katarina Witt 1987 NHK SP
Last edited by bardtoob; 06-17-2010 at 09:50 PM.
I wonder what the Calgary podium would have looked like if Witt skated as poorly at the Olympics as she did at NHK. Or would they have still found a way to hold her up even then?