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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    (I'm bored)


    When I look at Asada cheat her 3axels and Kim cheat her 3/3s, I want to tie them down "A Clockwork Orange" style and shout: 'THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE, SUCKERS!'
    Kim does not cheat her jumps. They are fully rotated. Asada sometimes underrotates her triple axel, and gets dinged for it, but there are times when she fully rotates them too. Both of them are better all around skaters than Tonya Harding. Tonya had great jumps and spins but that's about it. Midori had the best flow into and out of the jumps and she was more consistent than Tonya. I think Tonya had one consistent year (may be one and a half season) and then her jump consistency went south.

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Both of them are better all around skaters than Tonya Harding. Tonya had great jumps and spins but that's about it.
    I disagree. My CoP eyes see that Tonya had comparable to superior basics and content at a comparable age with challenges that these girls did not face, like:

    - performing 3Lz, 3F, 3Lp, 3T, 3S, and 2A with combinations, but still being at risk of loosing to somebody performing 3F, two 3T, two 3S, and 2A.
    - devoting time to figures rather than artistic development.
    - no role models for constructing a high technical content artistic program

    Here is Tonya Harding:

    Tonya Harding - 1989 Skate America Long Program

    Here is Yu Na Kim:

    Yu Na - 2009 Skate America Long Program

    There age difference is about one month. Yu Na had 20 years of freeskaters, including skaters that skated to the same music like Michelle Kwan and Midori Ito, to look to for program construction. Her technical content was behind Tonya's, Kim leaving out the 3Lp while Tonya leaving out the 3A, although Yu Na was in no danger of loosing to skater with comparable content to Jill Trenary. Yu Na's competition did not include figures, so she had to put greater emphasis on choreography and interpretation to set her apart from the field.

    I do not see any justification for saying Tonya was a lesser skater, and, in fact, Tonya had a skill set that is completely unknown to likes of Yu Na Kim.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-11-2010 at 09:37 AM.

  3. #143
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    Tonya was actually reasonably consistent as a skater and jumper from 86-91. Just bad luck for her to be held down by figures and the combination of U.S depth and the "wait your turn" protocal of skating back then from 86-88. Then in 89 to be screwed over at Nationals. 1990 after a strong season and all the potential for Worlds again to get sick at the U.S Nationals and miss Worlds again.

    Another ironic thing was Tonya was hurt by figures early in her career but it would have helped her later on had figures stayed. She was better at figures than all of Ito, Yamaguchi, or Kerrigan.

    I know people say she sabatoged her own career and huge talent and to some extent that is true of course, but she also is a very unlucky skater in many regards too IMHO.

  4. #144

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    People always gripe about Tonya's consistency, well Midori's consistency began falling apart in the 1990-91 season, about one year before Tonya's consistency began to fall apart, and Midori is one year older.

    Furthermore, I contend that Midori and Tonya peaked between 1986 and 1990, but Tonya could not get out of US to Worlds while Midori could get out of Japan to Worlds.

  5. #145
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    Midori had been at the world scene stage for many seasons before Tonya, so she had that excuse when she wasn't as consistent.
    Besides that, in the 92 season Midori was in truly unbeatable form. It just happened that at the Olympics everything went wrong for her and wasn't that strong mentally
    If we consider their brief pro careers, midori also trumps tonya in the consistency department by a long way

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Midori had been at the world scene stage for many seasons before Tonya, so she had that excuse when she wasn't as consistent.
    Midori is my favorite skater by far, but she was not on the senior world stage significantly longer than Tonya except going to worlds, which amounts to one competition per year. Tonya was still going to senior international events as early as 1985 while Midori started going to senior international events in 1984. Midori did get significant international coverage as a Jr, but who wouldn't with exhibitions at NHK at age 10 and the same 3-3 as a man at age 12.

    Tonya also had some other barriers to overcome. She did not come from an area with a strong history of top skaters like Boston, New York, or California and she did not have a high profile coach like Carlo Fassi, Frank Carol, or CHJ. Furthermore, she was being sent to Senior International events where the results were sometimes just ridiculous.

    Tonya Harding 1986 Skate America Freeskate

    and the LP of the overall winner:

    Tiffany Chin - 1986 Skate America Long Program

    Besides that, in the 92 season Midori was in truly unbeatable form. It just happened that at the Olympics everything went wrong for her and wasn't that strong mentally . . .
    Midori lost to Yamaguchi at 1990 Skate America and the Midori of 1991 Trophy Lalique was no where near as confident or reliable as the Midori of NHK 1989.

    If we consider their brief pro careers, midori also trumps tonya in the consistency department by a long way
    If you look at Midori's pro performances, she was not very consistent ... sorry to say nothing like Yamaguchi during her pro career. Midori had lost a lot of heart and was convinced that she was not an elegant skater.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-11-2010 at 12:12 PM.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Tonya was actually reasonably consistent as a skater and jumper from 86-91. Just bad luck for her to be held down by figures and the combination of U.S depth and the "wait your turn" protocal of skating back then from 86-88. Then in 89 to be screwed over at Nationals. 1990 after a strong season and all the potential for Worlds again to get sick at the U.S Nationals and miss Worlds again.

    Another ironic thing was Tonya was hurt by figures early in her career but it would have helped her later on had figures stayed. She was better at figures than all of Ito, Yamaguchi, or Kerrigan.

    I know people say she sabatoged her own career and huge talent and to some extent that is true of course, but she also is a very unlucky skater in many regards too IMHO.
    I also think that she was simply not the preference for TPTB in the US, who wanted a princess that looked a certain way and skated to the right kind of music, evidenced by the fact in my earlier post that intl. judges pre-whack were more prepared to reward her than even the judges in her own country. [She lived in Oregon. Maybe she could've competed for Canada, only having to dispatch Josee Chouinard ]

    I really think it took a psychological toll on her, she lost a lot of motivation, and she probably felt she had nothing to lose by the criminal turn her path took in late '93/early '94. I'm not excusing her, just analyzing it.

    ETA - I agree with the posts that stated it was easier for Midori to get out of JPN and compete at Worlds than it was for Tonya to do the same in the US

  8. #148

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    Tonya should probably not have skated to "People Are Still Having Sex". if she wanted to make points with TPTB
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 06-11-2010 at 10:26 PM.

  9. #149
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    Anyway, have you seen her 93 SA sp? One of the best 6.0 sp performances ever. One of the best Lutz combos ever, and even her spirals are great in this program.
    Oh, man. That triple lutz was like a 747 taking off and landing. Probably the best program overall that Tonya ever did, and one of my favorite shorts of all time.

    IMO, Tonya was better than Ito. Tonya didn't flutz, or wrap. Tonya was pretty raw, but she had musicality, whereas I found Ito to be pretty wooden.

  10. #150

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    Tonya's 1993 Skate America SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLjdg4208k

    The hang time on the flying sit is

    And the lutz combo is a-m-a-z-i-n-g!

    And you're right-the spirals are better than she did in previous years.

  11. #151
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    Ito flutzed? I have never heard that one before
    One thing she had over Ito, from the purist point of view, was the form of her jumps as she was tight in the air. Maybe, I'm really subjective, but Midori's "wrap" doesn't bother me like other wraps
    Ito attempted to be musical later in her career and I think she did a nice job. There was honesty and sincerity about her skating. Tonya always skated to the same powerhouse music and I've noticed that it's her who was wooden as the years went past. She was much more musical as a younger skater
    BTW, I consider Tonya a terrific skater. She's my favorite american skater ever, in any discipline.

  12. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Tonya's 1993 Skate America SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLjdg4208k
    I'd forgotten how great this program was, thanks for sharing! (And how nice to see a short program NOT frontloaded with jumps!)

    I loved both Tonya's programs in the 93-94 season. She skated with so much for musicality than before. And for the people who always rag on Tonya for her ugly dresses, I think she looked gorgeous in this costume!

  13. #153
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    Ladies, (and gentlemen) this is how you do it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JM5E...eature=related

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    No one beats Midori in my books either. She too had huge jumps. Her triple axels would put majority of men to shame, and she was a more consistent jumper than Tonya.
    She was much more consistent but Tonya's jumps, when landed, were better IMO. Midori had an ugly wrap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Kim does not cheat her jumps. They are fully rotated. Asada sometimes underrotates her triple axel, and gets dinged for it, but there are times when she fully rotates them too. Both of them are better all around skaters than Tonya Harding. Tonya had great jumps and spins but that's about it. Midori had the best flow into and out of the jumps and she was more consistent than Tonya. I think Tonya had one consistent year (may be one and a half season) and then her jump consistency went south.
    Kim's solo jumps are fine but her triple-triple combinations are practically always a little bit underrotated.

    Tonya had strong SS too but obviously she wasn't a strong all around skater. Still, her jumping technique was absolutely incredible and there isn't anybody skating today that comes anywhere close to it.

  15. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by leesaleesa View Post
    Ladies, (and gentlemen) this is how you do it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JM5E...eature=related
    Best triple axel by a lady EVER!! She jumped almost as high as the top of the boards, incredible.

  16. #156
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    Sorry to bring this thread back up, but does anyone know what combination Tonya used in her 1987/1988 in the sp? I know she had previously done 3f/2r in 1985, but did she keep it all the way through until 1988? After they removed the "2r rule" she went to 3z/2t and later 3a/2t.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Sorry to bring this thread back up, but does anyone know what combination Tonya used in her 1987/1988 in the sp? I know she had previously done 3f/2r in 1985, but did she keep it all the way through until 1988? After they removed the "2r rule" she went to 3z/2t and later 3a/2t.
    OT - IIRC, it wasn't a 2r rule. Yearly, a type of double jump was selected to be the jump used in a combo, ie - 2f, 2r, 2t in combo with another jump. At 1982 Worlds, it was a 2f for example.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    OT - IIRC, it wasn't a 2r rule. Yearly, a type of double jump was selected to be the jump used in a combo, ie - 2f, 2r, 2t in combo with another jump. At 1982 Worlds, it was a 2f for example.
    I should have been more clear, I merely meant that in 87/88 the 2r was the chosen double, and I was wondering if Tonya brought back the 3f/2r (the only combo I've ever seen her do with a 2r) or if she had a different combo.

  19. #159

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    ^ That is a good question. There is footage of Midori's SP from NHK 1987, so there must be footage of Tonya's SP somewhere.

    Tonya finished 3rd, behind Katarina and Midori at 1987 NHK.


    ETA: At the beginning of this clip, you can see Tonya's SP presentation scores while she is in the K&C with her coach. They look very happy.

    Katarina Witt 1987 NHK SP
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-17-2010 at 08:50 PM.

  20. #160
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    I wonder what the Calgary podium would have looked like if Witt skated as poorly at the Olympics as she did at NHK. Or would they have still found a way to hold her up even then?

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