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  1. #101
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    I wonder how much a skater would have been hurt under 6.0 in the post Trenary era not doing all the other triples, even if they did something like the triple axel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I wonder how much a skater would have been hurt under 6.0 in the post Trenary era not doing all the other triples, even if they did something like the triple axel.
    Well, I think that very thing cost Tonya the '91 World title...

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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Tonya didn't have a 3/3 either, al least consistent. I have only seen her landing it at the 91 Nationals and it was a toe/toe.
    We do not know that. Between 1989 Nationals to 1991 Nationals, about half the footage of Tonya's skating is unavailable. In that time, Tonya at least won the 1990 Nations Cups (a former GP event in Germany later known as Sparkassen Cup and Bofrost Cup) and she was the first American to ever win the Moscow News Cup (later known as the Cup of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union) in 1989.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I wonder how much a skater would have been hurt under 6.0 in the post Trenary era not doing all the other triples, even if they did something like the triple axel.
    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Well, I think that very thing cost Tonya the '91 World title...
    Well, A LOT, considering under the technical score there was no metered level of value, so the:

    first 3A (1 first rate jump)= first 3Lz (1 first rate jump)= first 3F (1 first rate jump)= first 3Lp (1 first rate jump)= top quality layback spin (1 first rate spin)
    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-30-2010 at 05:38 AM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Well, I think that very thing cost Tonya the '91 World title...
    She made two major errors. The 1toe-2toe, and then the doubled salchow at the end. I think she might have gotten a few ordinals at least had she nailed her 3salchow at the end, but it just seemed her program fizzled. And ending a program to Wild Thing is kinda iffy to begin with, especially without a final punch.

  6. #106
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    If she had done the triple toe-triple toe I am sure she would have won even with the doubled salchow. Kristi missed the salchow too so that wouldnt have hurt her on its own.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    We do not know that. Between 1989 Nationals to 1991 Nationals, about half the footage of Tonya's skating is unavailable. In that time, Tonya at least won the 1990 Nations Cups (a former GP event in Germany later known as Sparkassen Cup and Bofrost Cup) and she was the first American to ever win the Moscow News Cup (later known as the Cup of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union) in 1989.

    Caryn Kadavy won the Moscow News in the fall of 1985. Skated beautifully there where I think she landed 4 triples. Kadavy won all 4 of her internationals
    between the fall of 85 and the fall of 87: Skate Canada, Moscow News, Golden Spin (didn't skate well at all there but neither did her competition Anna Kondrashova), and St Ivel.

    Harding skated well at Bofrost Cup in the fall of 89. She fell on the 3A attempt but landed 5 other triples. Shockingly Marina Keilmann gave her a real run for her money by skating really well there. She might have landed 6 triples, at least 5. I'm pretty sure PBS showed some of Bofrost Cup in 89. They had hilites of the event and an interview with Harding but didn't show her complete performance......I think. German tv showed the event and I have a bad quality copy of Harding's performance from there.

    Oh, one other thing about Harding....at 88 US Nationals in the LP she landed a 3lp/3toe combo. Eeked out the 3t but I'm pretty sure it was clean.
    Last edited by CaptCrunch; 05-30-2010 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
    Oh, one other thing about Harding....at 88 US Nationals in the LP she landed a 3lp/3toe combo. Eeked out the 3t but I'm pretty sure it was clean.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood
    Tonya didn't have a 3/3 either, al least consistent.
    I wonder why she didn't attempt the triple-triple more often? Did she have one planned in Albertville and then just opted out?

    It's interesting to speculate how much Tonya would have achieved had she been really dedicated. Midori was certainly dedicated, but results-wise in major int'l events, she really didn't achieve a ton more than Tonya. The biggest difference was Midori's one world title. They each had one silver medal at Worlds, and then Midori skated slightly better than Tonya at the Olympics. (Of course, most fans agree that Midori deserved a medal at the '88 Olympics too.) I wonder if Tonya would ever have won Worlds or the Olympics? No matter how good you are, nerves can always come into play. I do think she would easily have won '93 Nationals at least. And as the top U.S. lady, no reason she couldn't have won '93 Worlds or the '94 Olympics.

    I also wonder how many other Tonya Hardings there are out there, in terms of talent. Statistically speaking, if you chose a random sample of 10,000 girls, how many of them would possess the raw athletic talent to become the next Tonya Harding? I have no idea, but it's intriguing to speculate.
    Last edited by neptune; 05-31-2010 at 10:05 AM.

  10. #110

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    I wonder how much Tonya would have achieved if she didn't have asthma and had a different mother.

    She would be on her inhaler for 5 or 10 minutes or so following any competitive programs I ever saw live, including her 1991 US Nats LP.

    What an idiot she was to take up smoking, considering her asthma, too, for that matter.

  11. #111

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    From what I remember, 3-3 combinations weren't seen as the be all, end all until '92. When skaters did them in the late 80s, it wasn't seen as a knockout punch. I think it was more important to show 5 or 6 triples.

    It wasn't until Yama had to go up against Harding and Ito with their triple axels that the 3-3 was viewed as a big weapon.
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    Not so sure about that. In 88 Debi Thomas' 3t/3t combo was viewed as the possible difference between her and Katarina if both skated clean. At that point the technical mark was the tie-breaker in the LP (BTW, one of the worse things the ISU could have ever done was to change that rule which they did at the 88 Congress).

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    From what I remember, 3-3 combinations weren't seen as the be all, end all until '92. When skaters did them in the late 80s, it wasn't seen as a knockout punch. I think it was more important to show 5 or 6 triples.
    You mean 5 or 6 total triples, usually with 2 of them being toe loops and 2 being salchows? Because that was pretty much the norm for the good jumpers in the 1980s.

    Skaters who could do 5 or 6 different triples were exceptional jumpers in the 1980s. I'd guess there were only 5 or 6 ladies total who were capable of doing them all by the end of figures.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
    Not so sure about that. In 88 Debi Thomas' 3t/3t combo was viewed as the possible difference between her and Katarina if both skated clean. At that point the technical mark was the tie-breaker in the LP (BTW, one of the worse things the ISU could have ever done was to change that rule which they did at the 88 Congress).
    I just remember Peggy Fleming describing the 3t3t as "easier" than other 3-3 combos. That was all that was said about it in the Nationals broadcast during Debi's skate.

    It certainly wasn't treated by commentators as anything approaching the technical difficulty of a 3a.
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  15. #115
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    Debi if she had skated cleanly would have had 5 triples, a triple-triple, and a triple loop vs Witt 4 triples, no triple-triple, and no triple loop. I think that is a significant difference and if Thomas had skated cleanly along with her improved artistry would have allowed her to win whereas in the past she could never win vs a clean Witt.

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    Christopher Bowman's spiffy 3f3t was considered of less value by far than a 3a2t. Not so with the version of COP we have had till this year.

    One reason the 3t on the end of a combo was devalued was the best jumpers routinely met the need to do a combo in the SP when either , "one of which will be a 2f" or "one of which will be a 2lz" in the 1980's, was to do a 2lz3t or a 2f3t. The best jumpers, including Witt, Zayak, Biellmann, Ito and Thomas were all able to tack a 3t onto a double jump. Others probably could too. Those are just the ones I remember. Then when the requirement was to do a 2t in combination, they got extra points for 2t3t rather than 3t2t (unlike COP). The most interesting thing was how to handle a 2lp. Ito did a 2lp3lp at least once, I think.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    One reason the 3t on the end of a combo was devalued was the best jumpers routinely met the need to do a combo in the SP when either , "one of which will be a 2f" or "one of which will be a 2lz" in the 1980's, was to do a 2lz3t or a 2f3t. The best jumpers, including Witt, Zayak, Biellmann, Ito and Thomas were all able to tack a 3t onto a double jump. Others probably could too. Those are just the ones I remember. Then when the requirement was to do a 2t in combination, they got extra points for 2t3t rather than 3t2t (unlike COP). The most interesting thing was how to handle a 2lp. Ito did a 2lp3lp at least once, I think.
    2 flip was the required jump in the combination in 1979 and 1982, but the only ladies attempting 2 flip - 3 toe were Elaine Zayak, Katarina Witt and Sanda Dubravcic.

    They then alternated between 2 loop and 2 toe after that, but I think only Midori Ito, Debi Thomas, and perhaps Simone Koch and Claudia Leistner were attempting double-triple combinations consistently.

    The men attempted 2-3 combinations more often until someone like Orser came along and were doing 3 lutz/3 axel combinations consistently

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I just remember Peggy Fleming describing the 3t3t as "easier" than other 3-3 combos. That was all that was said about it in the Nationals broadcast during Debi's skate.
    Actually, Peggy said that when Michelle Kwan was doing 3T-3T. When Debi was attempting 3T-3T, it was the only type of 3-3 ever landed by a female, that female being Midori Ito at age 11 and only 18 months after a man first landed it

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    Oddly enough, didn't Nancy Kerrigan land the first 3t3t by a lady in competition when she was a junior? I seem to remember that, but I could be misremembering?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Oddly enough, didn't Nancy Kerrigan land the first 3t3t by a lady in competition when she was a junior? I seem to remember that, but I could be misremembering?
    Really? She wasn't even landing 3toe3toes in the early stage of her SENIOR career.

    So this means Midori Ito wasn't the first lady ever to land a 3toe3toe in 1984?

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