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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Which was the last american skater that can compare to this skaters in terms of powerful jumps? I can only think of Tonya
    Nicole Bobek was capable of incredible amplitude and power on her jumps (videos from 1995 and 1997 showcase this best), but her technique was very suspect. Her Lutz attempts with the forward and short entry were so flutzed, commentators referred to the jump as a triple Bobek. Dick Button was once quoted on air saying that Nicole gets so much height on her jumps that she was only short of/behind Midori Ito in that aspect, and I've definitely seen video evidence that makes me agree with him. She was so spectacular to watch when she was healthy, well trained, and at her best physical shape. I recall at the 1995 Worlds LP, she actually over-rotated the 3toe end of her 3flutz+3toe attempt. Also, her split falling leaf+3toe from the 1997 Nationals LP gives the appearance that she's jumping into the rafters.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 05-28-2010 at 09:35 PM.

  2. #82
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    That's right museksk8r. i pointed earlier that Bobek had the potential to become one powerhouse jumper, but I think she falls in the category of the Gusmerolis, Hubert, Rechnios than the Arakawa, Slutkaya, Kim...
    What I find hard to analyze is why it's taken the US so long since Tonya (or Bobek, if u like) to produce a jumper of this sort of caliber

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    I can't think of any skaters competing today whose jumping technique is anywhere near Tonya's.

  4. #84
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    Joannie Rochette? Not comparable in terms of jumping ability (who is?) but her technique is top class

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Nicole Bobek was capable of incredible amplitude and power on her jumps (videos from 1995 and 1997 showcase this best), but her technique was very suspect. Her Lutz attempts with the forward and short entry were so flutzed, commentators referred to the jump as a triple Bobek. Dick Button was once quoted on air saying that Nicole gets so much height on her jumps that she was only short of/behind Midori Ito in that aspect, and I've definitely seen video evidence that makes me agree with him. She was so spectacular to watch when she was healthy, well trained, and at her best physical shape. I recall at the 1995 Worlds LP, she actually over-rotated the 3toe end of her 3flutz+3toe attempt. Also, her split falling leaf+3toe from the 1997 Nationals LP gives the appearance that she's jumping into the rafters.
    Well the only jump that was ugly from her was the loop.... But I wouldn't put Bobek in the same category as the greats of Tonya or Midori though, but she definitely goes in the great jumper category.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Joannie Rochette? Not comparable in terms of jumping ability (who is?) but her technique is top class
    So true! Her technique is superb! My favorite Rochette jump career highlights are her 3loop from the 2006 Olympics LP and all of her jumps minus the 1loop and the flawed 2Axel+2Axel sequence from the 2008 TEB LP. Her jumps were so big, crisp, and seemingly effortless in this performance to Concierto de Aranjuez. Her 3Lutz+2toe+2loop was so big, it appeared she was going to jump right over the boards and her 3toe+half loop+3Salchow in this LP was perhaps the best I've ever seen her perform that jump sequence. Also, the debut of her Samson + Delilah LP from the 2009 Japan Open featured some top class jumps that displayed graceful flow and power. I also love when she performs her big 2Axel landing in a spiral position in her SPs from 2008-2010.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Well the only jump that was ugly from her was the loop.... But I wouldn't put Bobek in the same category as the greats of Tonya or Midori though, but she definitely goes in the great jumper category.
    Nicole was such a perplexing, unpredictable skater. For so many years, the 3loop was her nemesis in competition, doubling the jump in both her 1997 and 1998 Nationals LPs. It was also the jump that unraveled her in her quest to win the 1995 World title. Then, amazingly enough, at the 1998 Olympics, it was the only triple jump she landed in her LP. As a huge fan of her's, I was constantly at her inconsistency, but man, what an enormous talent she was!

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    Michelle Kwan also admired Tonya's jumping ability. Pre-whack, Kwan would publicly state how much she wanted to jump like Tonya and do the Triple Axel. At 1994 Nationals, the network showed Kwan watching Tonya do a Triple Loop and Kwan was in awe.

    I think Carroll and Kwan knew that she didn't have a natural spring to her jumps (in that Christine Brennan book, Carroll talked about Kwan's right thigh and how it was always the loop she was inconsistent with) and so she naturally admired the skater who seemed to have what she was lacking. However, Kwan's consistency on her jumps was incredible, even back then (especially compared to the likes of Kerrigan, Bobek, Ervin, etc.).
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Also, the debut of her Samson + Delilah LP from the 2009 Japan Open featured some top class jumps that displayed graceful flow and power. I also love when she performs her big 2Axel landing in a spiral position in her SPs from 2008-2010.
    Her basics are strong, but I don't find anything all that amazing about her jumps. They are nowhere near Tonya's.
    Last edited by IceKween; 05-29-2010 at 10:14 AM.

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    I wouldnt consider Bobek a great jumper at all, not even close. In fact now that her career is over I would grade her a mediocre jumper even with her spring. It takes far more than high jumps to be a great jumper, although that is an important attribute for me all the same. For starters other than her triple flutz-triple toe turnout at the 95 Worlds her technical difficulty in jumps was always minimal for a top skater. 5 triples planned, hardly ever both the triple flip or triple loop (one or the other), 1 triple flutz, 2 triple toes. Of course the triple toe in the short forever. Her technique on alot of her jumps was quite bad, the flutz was perhaps the worst in skating history even surpassing Hughes. Of course those rare times she landed it great the jump in the air and the flow coming out was breathtaking enough to compensate but of course with Nicole's those times were rare. All her toe jumps had flawed technique in fact. In large part because of this technique her jumping was wildly inconsistent. She had many more 1 or 2 triple programs than she did very good 4 or 5 triple ones (the best she ever managed was 5 as far as I know). She never had anything that could be remotedly described as a stellar jumping performance like Harding's better skates.

    I loved Nicole's skating in many ways but she belongs nowhere near the great jumps category.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinhood View Post
    Joannie Rochette? Not comparable in terms of jumping ability (who is?) but her technique is top class
    Her jumps have nowhere near as much height and she has neither a 3axel nor any (consistent) 3/3 combinations.

    Yes her jumps are usually of a very nice quality when landed, but she's light years away from Tonya.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 05-29-2010 at 08:37 AM.

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    Tonya didn't have a 3/3 either, al least consistent. I have only seen her landing it at the 91 Nationals and it was a toe/toe. Rochette had that combination too back in 2005 or 06, I think. Her sequences of toe/sal are impressive too
    Of course, I agree Harding was way ahead in jumping ability

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceKween View Post
    Her basics are strong, but I don't find anything all that amazing about her jumps. They are nowhere near Tonya's.
    Well she's the most complete and well rounded jumper at the moment. Bar the triple axel she's got all the other ones consistent and with great quality, too

  14. #94

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    Rochette was falling on triple axel attempts in practice at 2003 Worlds. So at least she was close enough at that time to show the attempts in public.

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    did i step into the twilight zone or sth? I do respect that she was an amazing jumper

  16. #96
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    Of the current women the one who would come closest to Harding in jumping quality would be Yu Na Kim but she not only doesnt have a triple axel she doesnt even really have all 5 other triples since she isnt doing the triple loop anymore. Asada is right up there in difficulty but not in jump quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Asada is right up there in difficulty but not in jump quality.
    And even Mao doesn't attempt the 3Lutz nor the 3Salchow. Midori and Tonya in their primes attempted the 3Axel AND all the other 5 basic triples that the other ladies attempted. I think of today's ladies skaters, if you combined the technique and quality of Kim's and Rochette's jumps with the 3Axel attempts of Asada, then we'd have an Ito/Harding caliber skater in terms of ladies' jumping.

  18. #98

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    I added up the base value for Tonya's jumps in her famous '91 Skate America performance, and even though she does one of each triple (6 total), it's not that impressive of a number. Makes you go hmmm....
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    And even Mao doesn't attempt the 3Lutz nor the 3Salchow. Midori and Tonya in their primes attempted the 3Axel AND all the other 5 basic triples that the other ladies attempted. I think of today's ladies skaters, if you combined the technique and quality of Kim's and Rochette's jumps with the 3Axel attempts of Asada, then we'd have an Ito/Harding caliber skater in terms of ladies' jumping.
    Yeah that is true, but I give Mao credit for doing 3 triple axels over the 2 programs, making her first women who is actually doing more triple axels per competition than Ito and Harding ever were (that is not a knock on Ito or Harding of course, it has taken 18 years for this to finally happen) but yeah she isnt doing a full compliment of triples most times either and getting a 3/3 in which isnt downgraded is a challenge as well for her.

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    Well, if Ito and Harding could have gotten away with only showing 3-4 kinds of triples, they probably could have done 3 triple axels over the course of an SP & LP.
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