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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    At SA 1990 Ito fell in the short program. In the long program she missed both the triple axel and triple flip, and I think one other triple too. Even with those mistakes she was given mostly higher technical marks than a clean Kristi and lost it only on the 2nd mark.
    Thanks, judgejudy27. That's quite an unusual performance for Ito. So she probably landed 4 clean triples then. Hard to say whether she deserved the nod for technical merit over Kristi or not. If Kristi landed 7 triples, then probably not. But if she landed 6 or fewer (especially without a triple-triple), then I could see putting Midori ahead, since her spins were usually great too.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Thanks, judgejudy27. That's quite an unusual performance for Ito. So she probably landed 4 clean triples then. Hard to say whether she deserved the nod for technical merit over Kristi or not. If Kristi landed 7 triples, then probably not. But if she landed 6 or fewer (especially without a triple-triple), then I could see putting Midori ahead, since her spins were usually great too.
    I am pretty sure Kristi landed 7 triples. I dont remember if she did a triple-triple. Ito actually became alot more inconsistent once the figures were removed. Everyone thought she would be completely unbeatable once they were gone but she became more unpredictable, and the free skating competition improved a great deal while the other top free skaters were now also allowed to flourish without figures. She did have some really bad luck with the injuries at the 91 Worlds, all the media pressure in 92, but she maybe also found it tough to handle the pressure of now being the overwhelming favorite without the figures. Before she was always down in figures, even once she became a major contender in 89 and 90, and so she just went into the free skating with less to lose and skating lights out. It is also different having Jill Trenary as your top free skating competition to having Yamaguchi and Harding.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I am pretty sure Kristi landed 7 triples. I dont remember if she did a triple-triple.
    Then I'm glad she won at least.

    Ito actually became alot more inconsistent once the figures were removed. Everyone thought she would be completely unbeatable once they were gone but she became more unpredictable, and the free skating competition improved a great deal while the other top free skaters were now also allowed to flourish without figures.
    True. That's why it's always difficult to predict how Skater X would have done in the past if a competition format had been different. There are so many variables involved.

    It is also different having Jill Trenary as your top free skating competition to having Yamaguchi and Harding.
    Exactly--anyone would prefer to have Yamaguchi and Harding.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    I've read that, concerning certain people, they often bungle things up because everything feels "safer" to them that way. IOW, failure feels more comfortable and familiar to them than success. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were true in Harding's case.
    I have this impression about Tonya too, that and she has always lacked a good support system. Most skaters have a bunch of people telling them how fantastic they are and building up their ego, Tonya either had people putting her down or telling her that everyone was out to get her, that can't be easy.

    IMHO, even without the hucap incident she wouldn't have had much of a pro career after that 1999 competition, many skaters refused working with her (IIRC Lipinski was one of them), and that would have diminished her chances greatly. Who knows what she might have heard by the time that incident took place? She could have preferred, on a subconscious level, to fail by her own actions than have others let her down and despise her once more.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeperryfan View Post
    IMHO, even without the hucap incident she wouldn't have had much of a pro career after that 1999 competition, many skaters refused working with her (IIRC Lipinski was one of them), and that would have diminished her chances greatly. Who knows what she might have heard by the time that incident took place? She could have preferred, on a subconscious level, to fail by her own actions than have others let her down and despise her once more.
    I also I remember hearing talk that fall that Lipinski was one of the skaters who refused to work with Harding; Dick Button had been making noises about getting Harding to do World Pros but in the end he decided Lipinski was the better catch. Anyway, after the B-event where Harding did skate, the gimmick was over and it clearly wasn't going to save pro skating. Button decided to get out while the going was good and sold Candid Productions to SFX who also picked up the JP competitions and Michael Rosenburg's business, then SFX was sold to Clear Channel which had no interest in skating, and that was the end of the pro skating boom. Except for "Ice Wars" which was the property of CBS, the only other player left standing in the business was IMG, which had its fingers in both the ISU pro-ams and the Disson shows, and clearly Harding wasn't going to get invited to any of those.

    I do wonder, though, what might have happened if Harding had shown up at that pro event trained and prepared with new programs and used it as an opportunity to reestablish herself as a serious skater instead of just another opportunity to collect a paycheck for being the notorious Tonya Harding.... But I think it's pretty clear that Harding is more interested in continuing to try to cash in on her 15 minutes of fame than on doing anything that requires real work to earn a living.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
    Ziggy, that can't be the first time you've ever seen that performance is it?
    Yeah, that's what I want to know. He's knows every OES ever but never seen Harding's 91 performance?

    Anyway, I wish she kept the original cut of the "Batman" score she had for the program. I love the music in the final section.

  7. #27

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    Whenever I think of Tonya Harding, "what might have been" comes to mind.
    Some people use personal difficulties as a spur to great achievement; others are forever "victims".

    She lacked discipline, on any level; focus, and a strong work ethic,
    Tonya had more pure talent and natural ability then almost anyone; yet squandered it.
    She might have had the pontential to become the "Greatest Ever". However, we will never know.

  8. #28
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    Some of the more skating purists actually prefer the Tonya Harding as seen in this clip of the1986 Skate America Long Program, as there's a little more attention to body positions and the skating is a little bit more "lighter" at her early career compared to later years.

  9. #29

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    What a pleasure to see a lady who can do both a flip and lutz from the proper edge and do a triple loop. (her spirals not so much) I wonder if the rash of tiny jumping little flutzers with bendy positions we have had here in the US was a reaction-the last thing anyone of them wanted was to remind anyone of Tonya in any way whatsoever.

  10. #30

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    Here'a Tonya's 1991 Skate America LP, wirh Japanese commentary:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY030...eature=related

    Can someone tell us what they said?

    Here's the US version:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQXB...eature=related
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 05-20-2010 at 05:12 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    What a pleasure to see a lady who can do both a flip and lutz from the proper edge and do a triple loop. (her spirals not so much) I wonder if the rash of tiny jumping little flutzers with bendy positions we have had here in the US was a reaction-the last thing anyone of them wanted was to remind anyone of Tonya in any way whatsoever.
    Well, don't forget that the first little (well, young) flutzer with bendy positions who started the whole craze was.... (drum roll...) Nicole Bobek.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    ...If Tonya had been given proper direction on costumes, choreography (which was still quite good under Flowers), etc., she could have pulled off a lot of different things IMO. Maybe not the super-pretty-pretty stuff (is there a :gag: icon? ), but who wants to watch that schlock anyway?

    I may have to disagree a little, Tonya may have been given better programs at some points but whether she actually accepted advice and assistance or even "better" programs is another matter entirely. Considering she threw off advice to go to the 1994 Olympics earlier to adjust to the time change and ignored that wisdom, I have a feeling Tonya didn't take advice well. She was her own worst enemy.

  13. #33

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    Absolutely agree that she was her own worst enemy; Tonya's biggest obstacle wasn't other skaters, judges, or USFS, but Tonya herself. She deserves a PLATINUM medal for squandering talent, opportunity, and multiple chances at becoming the best.

    I would tie her with Midori as the greatest jumper ever. Greatest skater? Not a chance, there's more to skating than powerful jumps and crossovers. She didn't have the grace and fluidity of other ladies with great jumps such as Michelle or Yu Na or the plain charm of someone like Tara.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  14. #34
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    Tara charming? To each their own I guess. I would rate Yu Na a great jumper, Kwan I would rate only a very good one at best.

  15. #35
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    I guess it's more of a cheering thread for Tonya, but IMO, she is not at all the greatest ever.
    Powerful jumps and crossovers. But nothing more into her skating. No steps, no lightness...
    IMO, Midori Ito is the only one with the power and a bit of the rest ! YuNa is the perfect balance.

  16. #36
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    Tonya is not the greatest skater, but I consider her to be one of the most naturally talented skaters, at least in terms of sheer athleticism. The girl reportedly did not practice that much, yet she was still able to pull off those amazing jumps without much effort. If only she were a little more dedicated to her sport.....

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralgraph View Post
    I may have to disagree a little, Tonya may have been given better programs at some points but whether she actually accepted advice and assistance or even "better" programs is another matter entirely. Considering she threw off advice to go to the 1994 Olympics earlier to adjust to the time change and ignored that wisdom, I have a feeling Tonya didn't take advice well. She was her own worst enemy.
    I can agree with that. I'm just saying that Tonya didn't have the best steering and guidance throughout her career, especially from her parents.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    She didn't have the grace and fluidity of other ladies with great jumps such as Michelle or Yu Na or the plain charm of someone like Tara.
    But Tonya had great spins as well. Are "grace" and "fluidity" that important, though, for being a great skater? I guess it all depends on how you define great skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeperryfan View Post
    many skaters refused working with her (IIRC Lipinski was one of them)
    That surprises me a bit--I didn't know that. I would have expected younger skaters to be more open to skating with Tonya. I wonder if most of that was coming from Tara herself or her parents?
    Last edited by neptune; 05-20-2010 at 09:55 PM.

  19. #39
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    she's definately the most known skater of all time

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    (I'm bored)

    But it's true.

    I am salivating over this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3P7wxwMMUU&
    (kudos to Tony Wheeler for the link )

    Best jumper ever. Strong SS too. As for the rest... Well .

    Still. I can't think of any female skaters with technical skills that outstanding, overall.

    When I look at Asada cheat her 3axels and Kim cheat her 3/3s, I want to tie them down "A Clockwork Orange" style and shout: 'THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE, SUCKERS!'


    We can say "if only" to virtually anyone. At least she delivered a few memorable performances and can be remembered for something positive.

    She puts Kerrigan to shame, btw.

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