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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    But in encouraging people not to buy from reputable breeders and only get dogs from shelters, we provide the market for the puppy mills. . . .It seems that going after the puppy mills themselves is not getting anywhere. Maybe what they need to do is impose fines and jail time to pet store owners that buy from them. Maybe it should be illegal - PERIOD - for pet stores to sell dogs. Then the puppy mill breeders would have to deal with the public. Then people would see where their dogs were coming from and the conditions they suffer.
    ITA that much more needs to be done in order to terminate puppy mills. They are abhorrent businesses which abuse animals and both the SPCA and animal rights legislation are guilty of just letting it go on.

    Also, I've heard that selling puppies in pet stores is illegal in California?

    And with regard to using a reputable breeder - we got our golden retriever without papers because it was so much more expensive to get one with papers. At the time we also had an elderly blind and diabetic dog whose care required a lot of money and a somewhat aggressive sharpie-border collie mix who had had a traumatic puppyhood. Because we live in a small space and because I run a business out of my home we chose a golden retriever and it proved to be the perfect choice for us. We met both of her parents and liked the people who sold us our pup. They didn't qualify as backyard breeders from what we could see, but they also weren't 'reputable breeders'.

    I'd like to get another dog but one problem I face is that we rent and I would prefer not to ask our landlord for permission to get another dog. This will sound irresponsible but it is not the case - we have been here for 15 years and our landlord has no idea how many dogs we and our downstairs neighbours have precisely (three at the moment, four in the past and we'd never go above that, two for each suite). I would be nervous to ask him for permission because it might cause him to actually think about it.

    Basically, I am someone who would never surrender her animals unless I were sick or dying. If we are required to leave here because the landlord sells the house I would move to a trailer park and live in a dumpy trailer if I couldn't find somewhere better that allowed me to keep my animals. Rehoming them would not be an option. I love them too much to give them up.

    We have cared for all of our dogs and cats very well over the past 17 years and all have been well-loved. But I prefer not to deal with the permission requirement.

    Again, you may call me irresponsible but the facts of our animal ownership shows otherwise.

    How do I explain my situation to a shelter or a reputable breeder? We did get permission to adopt a cat in the past few years but prefer not to request it for a dog, especially given that we will be one dog over the legal limit. An SPCA official told me that they would not intervene in such a situation if the dogs would well-loved and cared for, but I don't want to announce it.

    We are a a year or several years away from getting another dog - I want to give my golden a chance to be a therapy dog in hospitals and such - but I do think about how I will proceed when the time comes. Invariably,
    I return to buying a pup from a private home, probably a mix next time, with no need of papers.

  2. #22
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    There really shouldn't even be *mixed* breeds. (I know the argument that all breeds developed by mixing and it's an artificial concept, but it's what it is in the US and Europe.) All dogs should be spayed or neutered unless the dog is an excellent example of the breed standard and the mating is an effort to get a better dog than the parents. This one act would save thousands and thousands of animals from the fate most meet in shelters, along the highways or at the hands of some owners.

    Both of my Standard Poodles have been/will be neutered. I'm not showing them, therefore, I'm not breeding them.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    How do I explain my situation to a shelter or a reputable breeder? We did get permission to adopt a cat in the past few years but prefer not to request it for a dog, especially given that we will be one dog over the legal limit. An SPCA official told me that they would not intervene in such a situation if the dogs would well-loved and cared for, but I don't want to announce it.
    The concern any RESPONSIBLE breeder would have is less that the SPCA will come after you (it's hard enough to get most AC to go after actual neglect and hoarding in most jurisdictions) than concern that if they sell you this dog and your landlord realizes you're in violation of the lease or building codes, they'll evict you and you AND their puppy will be homeless. It's less about reputation in the sense of "My dogs won their groups at Westminster" than about a breeder who is highly selective about what parents they cross and why, and about whom they sell the puppies to. They don't want someone buying one who's going to get kicked out of their home any more than they want someone who's already got thirty cats in a one-bedroom bungalow.

    Does your county shelter, though, ask about renting? Some don't. Some county agencies are so overcrowded their only concern is you obey the spay/neuter clause so you aren't bringing an entire litter to dump on them a few months later.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I
    And with regard to using a reputable breeder - we got our golden retriever without papers because it was so much more expensive to get one with papers. At the time we also had an elderly blind and diabetic dog whose care required a lot of money and a somewhat aggressive sharpie-border collie mix who had had a traumatic puppyhood. Because we live in a small space and because I run a business out of my home we chose a golden retriever and it proved to be the perfect choice for us. We met both of her parents and liked the people who sold us our pup. They didn't qualify as backyard breeders from what we could see, but they also weren't 'reputable breeders'.
    I think that the term "reputable breeder" can be applied to breeders who do not show dogs. Yes, you go to a reputable breeder and get dogs that meet standards of a breed. But, I do think that some "backyard breeders" can be just as responsible, adherent to standards, and loving as the more high profile breeders. What we need are laws to govern who can and cannot breed dogs. They need to be supervised by a health organization and get licenses, which should have to be renewed every year or two. And in order to renew a license, they must be inspected. We also need laws that limit the inter-breeding of dogs. Breeding every dog known to man with poodles, to get dogs that don't shed is wrong. I understand that getting a dog without papers was less expensive, and I strongly believe that many dogs that do not have papers were bred by very responsible people (your dog as an example ). But papers protect the dogs. If people could only buy dogs with papers, it could go a long way toward stopping puppy mills.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    There really shouldn't even be *mixed* breeds. (I know the argument that all breeds developed by mixing and it's an artificial concept, but it's what it is in the US and Europe.) All dogs should be spayed or neutered unless the dog is an excellent example of the breed standard and the mating is an effort to get a better dog than the parents. This one act would save thousands and thousands of animals from the fate most meet in shelters, along the highways or at the hands of some owners.

    Both of my Standard Poodles have been/will be neutered. I'm not showing them, therefore, I'm not breeding them.
    My Cavalier is stunning! This is his sister and Cooper is prettier. http://www.orchardhillcavaliers.com/pedigreebaby.htm He looks a lot like her, but has a wider blaze on his head (the white strip between his eyes and down the center of his head) and slightly longer feathering on his ears.

    The breeder sold him to me because he had a slight overbite as a puppy (his baby teeth). She was not sure she could show him, so I got him . I brought him for her to see him when he was 9 months old (at the National Cavalier Show - it was near where I live). She grabbed him and ran around showing everyone his teeth, which were now adult teeth and perfect, saying how could I let this one go! Everyone there thought he could be a champion. We considered showing him and did not neuter him. We ultimately decided that we'd had enough judged event experiences in skating and decided just to let him be a pet. He is now 3 and still not neutered. He is well behaved and does not show any improper behavior typically associated with a non-neutered dog. The reasons I have decided not to neuter him are:

    1. Cavaliers tend to get very sedentary after they are neutered.
    2. Cavaliers tend to gain weight after they are neutered.
    3. Cavaliers tend to get mitral valve disease more frequently than other breeds - consequently the above reasons are for his heart health.
    4. I have spoken with several vets and breeders who agree that neutering can sometimes make congenital defects happen earlier. Especially ones that are age related.

    Now, this is the choice I have made for my dog. I understand that not neutering can cause a slightly higher risk of testicular cancer. My dog is seen 3 times a year by the vet and is checked. If there is any indication that neutering would be needed, we will do it. My dog only goes out on a leash. A short leash. He is never outside alone. We do not have a fence, physical or electric. I live in a very wooded area and there are a lot of wild animals around. Fences might keep my dog in, but they don't necessarily keep animals that could hurt him out.

    So, while I do agree that it is most responsible to neuter/spay dogs. There can be compelling reasons not to. And if the owner understands the responsibility of owning a non-neutered dog and is diligent, it's okay.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    There really shouldn't even be *mixed* breeds.
    Why? I'm not trying to start an argument, just genuinely curious.

  6. #26

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    You even have to be careful with purebreeds. In the effort to emphasize certain aspects of the breed standard, some "reputable" breeders are perpetuating deformities and other problems.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarice View Post
    You even have to be careful with purebreeds. In the effort to emphasize certain aspects of the breed standard, some "reputable" breeders are perpetuating deformities and other problems.
    That is true. That is why you sometimes have to look hard for a "reputable" breeder. The first question I ask when I speak to a Cavalier breeder is how are your dog's hearts? Obviously, mitral valve disease is in the dog (actually most toy/small dogs tend to have mitral valve problems). It often does not show up until the dog is 6/7 years old, so it's difficult to completely resolve. But, it is the dogs where mitral valve problems show up by the age of two, that the problem is most serious. Reputable Cavalier breeders will not breed a dog that is younger than two for that reason, regardless of their physical aesthetic perfection. They also screen the grandparents to lessen the odds that mitral valve will turn up. They are making good progress, but it takes time. Mitral valve can be treated, and if the dog gets adequate exercise and is a healthy weight, they can live a long happy life.

    Mosts breeds have some sort of genetic issue. Whether its hips, knees, heart, cranial, or some other problem, the best breeders address it, acknowledge it, and work to eliminate it. When called the breeder for this dog, the first question she asked was am I familiar with the breed, did I know about their heart problems. I said I'd already had two, that one did develop mitral valve, but that my vet & I knew how to treat it. That influenced her letting me have one of her dogs.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by made_in_canada View Post
    Why? I'm not trying to start an argument, just genuinely curious.
    Not because the pure breeds are *better*, but because mixed breeds are typically the result of irresponsible ownership. Cruisin is correct in that there are sometimes reasons not to neuter a male dog (more than not to spay a female) and there is debate about when is the best time to do so. She is not going to let her male out and mate with any female dog in heat. Sadly, the result of this are mutts nobody wants who end up in shelters. That's not to say purebred dogs don't end up there as well, but most are mixed breeds.

    All dog breeds were developed by humans. Selective breeding has been done for millennia to produce a desired result: size, coat, temperament etc. So, on one hand it's difficult to argue with those seeking to produce today's so-called designer breeds. However, the overwhelming majority of people doing so do not understand genetics and are doing this simply to make money. Breeders with respected kennels will quickly tell you, you don't make a lot of money selling puppies. They do it to produce that elusive better dog.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Not because the pure breeds are *better*, but because mixed breeds are typically the result of irresponsible ownership. Cruisin is correct in that there are sometimes reasons not to neuter a male dog (more than not to spay a female) and there is debate about when is the best time to do so. She is not going to let her male out and mate with any female dog in heat. Sadly, the result of this are mutts nobody wants who end up in shelters. That's not to say purebred dogs don't end up there as well, but most are mixed breeds.

    All dog breeds were developed by humans. Selective breeding has been done for millennia to produce a desired result: size, coat, temperament etc. So, on one hand it's difficult to argue with those seeking to produce today's so-called designer breeds. However, the overwhelming majority of people doing so do not understand genetics and are doing this simply to make money. Breeders with respected kennels will quickly tell you, you don't make a lot of money selling puppies. They do it to produce that elusive better dog.
    Absolutely, my breeder told me she does this for the love of the breed. that she barely makes back her costs when she sells a dog (and her dogs are not inexpensive). But, she her puppies are thoroughly checked out medically, have all shots, and are more than well cared for. She also sent me home with the brands of immunizations that she wanted our vet to use. When I brought Cooper home and took him for his well puppy visit, I gave the vet the list - The vet looked at me and said I wish all breeders were this well informed.

    I also wanted to agree with you about the genetics. You might have a poodle breeder, who decides to do a designer mix. She might know a lot about poodles, but does she know enough about the new breed she is introducing? Will she know about the genetic issues associated? (Used she, but can sub. he ).

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    The concern any RESPONSIBLE breeder would have is less that the SPCA will come after you (it's hard enough to get most AC to go after actual neglect and hoarding in most jurisdictions) than concern that if they sell you this dog and your landlord realizes you're in violation of the lease or building codes, they'll evict you and you AND their puppy will be homeless.
    I understand that. And have no fear of eviction - we've been here about 15 years and had four dogs and four for between the suites for a number of those years. The landlord has a darn goo deal with us in that my husband does all the household repairs and both we and the downstairs neighbours have put considerable $$ and work into renovation (painting, etc.). Saving him a ton of money.

    And as I said, surrendering my animals if I had to move would not be an option.

    My point is I prefer not to have to be investigated to the hilt, so prefer not to buy from a reputable breeder or rescue who screens potential owners heavily. I wouldn't buy from a pet store, either, so that leaves me with a private sale or buying from someone I know (like a local dog owner whose is planner to breed her 'papered' golden retriever).

    In general I think there is bit of a bias against renters - it might be warranted, I suppose. But I read through the Craig's List ads for rehoming dogs and by far the most common reason is 'not enough time'.

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