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  1. #21
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    Well he just doesn't see Flatt as the future (or the present) and he is entitled to his opinion even if some disagree.

    If Flatt rocked next season too I am sure he would know to shut up. [although even with similar skates I don't think either the US or international judges would be behind her]

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by freezin'rinkmom View Post
    I don't see him picking on Abbott or the pair teams or dance teams.

    Get over it, Phil! LOL! Move on and find something else to write about.
    Oh he did pick on Abbott in an earlier blog all right.

  3. #23
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    Well, if I really wanted to be jealous over someone skating and off the ice career, I'd pick Debi Thomas and not Rachael Flatt.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    I'm a little irate at the notion that, somehow, Rachael had an unsuccessful season.
    -- She won Nationals, showing tremendous consistency at a time when many others melted.
    -- She made the Olympic team
    -- She competed very, very well at what turned out to be one of the most competitive Olympic ladies events we've seen in years. I still think that her LP scores were a little jobbed to make good and sure that Rochette, who was yet to skate, made the podium.
    -- She was a little flatter at Worlds, but still ended in the top 10.

    And she did all this while still managing to complete a full high school course load packed with four or five AP classes, including Calc BC and one of the Physics courses.

    She has a lot to be proud of this year. Exactly how did Jeremy do at Olympics and Worlds? Taking what kind of courseload?
    ITA!! I bet he won't suggest that Mirai should go to college or work in her parents restaurant if she doesn't have a fabulous season.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Well he just doesn't see Flatt as the future (or the present) and he is entitled to his opinion even if some disagree.

    If Flatt rocked next season too I am sure he would know to shut up. [although even with similar skates I don't think either the US or international judges would be behind her]
    ITA.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  6. #26
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    I can't stand Rachael Flatt's skating. But she has produced moderately good results. So what if she's probably never going to be world champion or medalist? If she or her parents have enough money to keep competing and she enjoys it, then let her skate however long she wants. Most of the skaters in the world are kinda sucky or have sucky results. Don't see why someone can be bothered with her skating or not devoting her attention full-time to school.

  7. #27

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    If Phil disagrees with how the criteria are established or applied, that's fine. But there are ways to present those arguments without turning them into an attack on Flatt for not "doing better" after Nationals.

    That being said, frankly I don't care if she was taking 800 extra credit courses, getting A+++ in every course, solving the Middle East conflicts in her spare time, etc. etc. That's very admirable that she's doing so much in addition to skating, but it makes no sense to me to say "Well, she did very well considering all the other things she was involved in." Did I miss the component in the IJS for "activities off the ice"?

    95% of the skaters in the world would kill for those results. There's no need to justify them. She had a very good year and she met the USFS funding criteria. If Hersh wants to b*tch about something, b*tch about the criteria, not the skaters.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    But there are ways to present those arguments without turning them into an attack on Flatt for not "doing better" after Nationals.
    She had a very good year and she met the USFS funding criteria. If Hersh wants to b*tch about something, b*tch about the criteria, not the skaters.
    The only "attack" words that I can find are:
    "Flatt, whose season went downhill after nationals,.." (and it's somewhat true!)


    Phil said this about Rachel in last part of the article:
    "She already has had a career as sparkling as the sequins on her dresses: U.S. champion, world junior champion, two-time U.S. runner-up, Olympic team, two senior world teams.
    No U.S. woman has been more successful the past four years than Flatt. She clearly belongs in the nation's top tier."


    And yesterday he wrote this clarification in the article's comments section:
    "I did not say Flatt was undeserving of Tier I by the standard of the criteria in place.
    And I did not say the criteria in place should not apply.
    My point was the criteria are absurd, no matter how far in advance they were published.

    Posted by: Philip Hersh | May 11, 2010 at 07:58 AM"


    Seems that he is already doing exactly what you are demanding.
    For the time being, Phil is a Nagasu-bot...but not at Rachel's expense IMHO.

    Last edited by geod2; 05-13-2010 at 04:21 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Rey View Post
    I can't stand Rachael Flatt's skating. But she has produced moderately good results.
    That line makes me sad. US used to be able to rely on Kwan and Cohen. OK, Cohen might never be clean or win Worlds but she would almost always medal despite faltering somewhat.

    But after they were gone, it's relying on Meissner, Czisny and Flatt. For a nation that has been dominant in the ladies for so long, a US champion who can place 5th at Worlds at her absolute best, while admirable given her circumstances, is very sad for the state of US skating. Zhang, Nagasu and Wagner were all supposed to have grown up but their international results have been moderate at best. The only exciting result since Meissner's world title is probably Nagasu's 4th at the Olympics. But then that wasn't even considered in the funding for next season. How silly.

    I think it's silly Nagasu isn't also in the top tier, and it's silly that Cohen is still right up there. It's like only Nationals matter and Zhang's 4CCs medal, Wagner's GP success or Zawadzki's Jr World medal do not matter at all.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    That line makes me sad. US used to be able to rely on Kwan and Cohen. OK, Cohen might never be clean or win Worlds but she would almost always medal despite faltering somewhat.

    But after they were gone, it's relying on Meissner, Czisny and Flatt. For a nation that has been dominant in the ladies for so long, a US champion who can place 5th at Worlds at her absolute best, while admirable given her circumstances, is very sad for the state of US skating.
    Completely agree.

    Meissner actually produced decent results at worlds until her injuries/slump. 1st in 2006 (even without Cohen, her 1st and Hughes' 7th (?) would have been good enough for 3 spots in 07), then her 4th in 2007 just barely eeked out 3 spots for 2008. That's when the troubles for the US ladies REALLY began. Meissner (and Hughes too) slid down the standings (injuries/past their prime/whatever you want to call it), but the next group of American ladies wasn't good enough to take over where they left off. The best they could do was 5th place in 2009 (Flatt). While underwhelming internationally, however, from a national perspective the ladies' scene has been more competitive than ever. After Kwan in 2005, every single year has brought us a new US ladies' champ. And that ladies' champ (since 2007) has underwhelmed in every possible way. 11th, 9th...

    I know better than to look to the rising skaters Gao, et al. This is a true slump the ladies are in, and unfortunately I see no end to it in the near future- unless Nagasu can pull herself together- her scores suggest that she may be able to be a factor in the future, but it's up to her to make the most of it- and it would be nice if somebody else could share the burden. As great as MK was, she couldn't do it alone- there was Hughes, then Cohen that provided the 1-2 punch necessary to lock three spots every time. Basically, even if Nagasu becomes a world-class contender, she's gonna need help from someone else...Flatt isn't a bad choice but she'll have to do better than 9th...forget Czisny (with all due respect to her)...or even Wagner, although maybe she would do better this time.

    MK, et al. left behind some pretty big shoes to fill. So far the skater worthy enough to walk in those shoes has not shown up yet...
    Last edited by RD; 05-13-2010 at 05:24 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But then that wasn't even considered in the funding for next season. How silly.

    I think it's silly Nagasu isn't also in the top tier, and it's silly that Cohen is still right up there. It's like only Nationals matter and Zhang's 4CCs medal or Wagner's GP success doesn't matter at all.
    Not so long ago, 4CC was the event many top skaters wanna skip. In fact, many Olympic-bound skaters did skip it this year, so whether a 4CC medal is Tier-one worthy to fans varies from year to year depending on who shows.

    Having seen what happened to Czisny and Meissner in the year they made the gpf I can see why GPs matter less. These are cometitions where placments depend on which skaters you compete against. Remember 2006 where Meissner placed like 5th while skating lights out in a gp? And Czisny placing 2nd at Skate Canda this year despite that lp?

    Nagasu looks promising but criteria have long favored winners or at least medalists. Which is fair if you look at USFSA's goals in iternational competitions. Once you take nationals out, the funding for doing well in international comps actually commensurates with the importance of these competitoins in general.

    The only thing in question is favoring their national champions in their tiers. The thing is that nationals is a USFSA tradition, andyou can't change the funding criteria without changing the meaning of nationals.

    As long as nationals is the one big comp where skaters are chosen to goto worlds, I can see why being national champs are a big deal.

    Anyway the difference in Nagasu's tier and Flatt's tier is only a few thousand and both skaters get endorsements.

  12. #32
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    It's so silly to heavily favour Nationals given how ridiculously political the judging has been since 2007.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by geod2 View Post
    The only "attack" words that I can find are:
    "Flatt, whose season went downhill after nationals,.." (and it's somewhat true!)
    Competing at Olympics and Worlds and placing in the top 10 at both is going "downhill"? I don't think so.

  14. #34
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    I think the judging was ok up to 2008. In 2009 things began to get suspect, and this year unfortunately was no different...hmm.

    Possibly the Cop has made things more transparent? Maybe it was always like this.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    It's so silly to heavily favour Nationals given how ridiculously political the judging has been since 2007.
    My impression is that's what the athletes want and unless the naysayers become members and start getting active I don't see that changed.

  16. #36
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    Didn't Phil go back & forth with respect/disrespect toward Kwan?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Competing at Olympics and Worlds and placing in the top 10 at both is going "downhill"? I don't think so.
    Not to belabor the point, but here are actual comments from the 2010 Worlds Ladies LP thread that were made during or right after Rachel's performance:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...t=72808&page=4

    "Wow, Flatt actually pops a jump. Shocking."

    "Flatt singled a jump-must be nerves or tired"

    "Flatt is actually appalling!

    "Ur on first flip, single lutz, no 3/3 no speed, no TR's, no charisma....etc etc."

    "What has happened to Rachael's consistency? I really don't see her getting better than she is, and I almost wish she'd just go on to college. She's had a great run at skating. It's not going to be her future and she should move on."

    "WTF? Rachael popped a jump! When has that EVER happened?"

    "I fear this might be the swan song for Flatt. Her skating seems to be on the decline."

    "Rachael seems to have lost her confidence or mojo or something."

    "Oh dear. Rather muted applause. Not what I expected from Flatt."

    "Still can't believe Ms. Consistency's skate. I wonder if she was still bothered about the downgrades from the O's?"

    "Not what was expected from Rachael...too bad."



    Rather than any desire to attack Rachel, Phil's "downhill" comment was based on the evidence (that FSUers saw too) that Rachel peaked at Nationals and to an increasing degree did not quite skate up to her own standards after that....therefore downhill compared to what we saw at Nationals. Protocols would seem to confirm it.
    Maybe the phrase "not as well after she peaked at Nationals" would be less offensive than "downhill'.


    .
    Last edited by geod2; 05-13-2010 at 08:00 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Competing at Olympics and Worlds and placing in the top 10 at both is going "downhill"? I don't think so.
    Yes, it was downhill, in my opinion. Besides Nagasu got a better result both in Olympics and Worlds.

  19. #39

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    Let's think about some other situations when you hear something like, "If your international results aren't better next season than they were in 2010, think long and hard about what you might gain and what you may lose by continuing" -- is that what you say to someone who had a really good season this past year? Or is that what you say to someone who actually did badly this year - Ryan Bradley, perhaps, or Sasha Cohen.

    Is that what Phil would have said to Mirai last year after a pretty poor season? How 'bout Zhang? Was there something Rachael could have done to have better results at the Olympics? (Other than be in the skate order after Rochette so that the judges could be sure that Rochette had earned a medal?) Jeremy Abbott has gone to Worlds and had very weak results two years in a row.

    He could have just focused on the argument that Mirai deserves top level funding, and I'd agree with him. His reply on his column seems to indicate that this is what he was trying to say, but the reference to Flatt is an unfair swipe at a skater who had a really strong season. Abbott, who finished 9th at the Olympics, and 6th at a Worlds with a much depleted entry field, following two other years when he hasn't had stellar Worlds results might have been someone to point the finger at when asking why Nagasu didn't get the highest level funding; Flatt wasn't.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    That line makes me sad. US used to be able to rely on Kwan and Cohen. OK, Cohen might never be clean or win Worlds but she would almost always medal despite faltering somewhat.

    But after they were gone, it's relying on Meissner, Czisny and Flatt. For a nation that has been dominant in the ladies for so long, a US champion who can place 5th at Worlds at her absolute best, while admirable given her circumstances, is very sad for the state of US skating. Zhang, Nagasu and Wagner were all supposed to have grown up but their international results have been moderate at best. The only exciting result since Meissner's world title is probably Nagasu's 4th at the Olympics. But then that wasn't even considered in the funding for next season. How silly.

    I think it's silly Nagasu isn't also in the top tier, and it's silly that Cohen is still right up there.
    Agree with everything, including the last sentence.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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