Jumps: Difficult Entries for GOE???

[Firefly123]

I know that a difficult entry can increase the GOE for jumps, but I'm not exactly sure what would count...... Here is a list of jumps with what I would guess may meet the reqirement. Can anyone help out and add other ideas or set me straight on something that I have wrong on the list.....Thanks.

waltz jump/axel:
Probably: LBI-LFO 3 turn entry; spread eagle or ina bauer entry; LBO-LFO counter
Maybe:

toe loop:
Probably: Traveling 3 turns directly into the jump; split, stag, or falling leaf immediately proceeding (land forward 3 turn to RBO edge and jump)
Maybe:

salchow:
Probably: ?
Maybe: LFO spiral directly into an upright position and a 3 turn into the salchow

loop:
Probably: Traveling 3 turns directly into the jump
Maybe: ROB spiral into upright position and directly into takeoff off that edge

flip:
Probably: ?
Maybe:

lutz:
Probably: LFO-LBO Bracket entry; Back power pulls
Maybe:


Also, since an inside axel (bockle) and one foot axel (coolege) aren't recognized jumps if you did them immediately proceeding a recognized jump (for example bockle-loop or coolege-salchow) would they:
1. Be counted as a difficult entry to a jump?
and
2. Would that item count as as a combination or a individual jump since the first "jump" is not techincally recognized?

Please add to my list!!!! And/or fix the items I have wrong. Thanks!!!

[kayskate]

If I remember correctly, Jill Trenary used to do an inside axel into a 3sal.
Midori Ito used to fake a lutz entry then turn and a 2axel. So she did LBO edge, LBO rocker? to LFO jump to an axel.
I've also seen one-foot pulls into a lutz.
The falling leaf into a toe loop would be a jump sequence.

Kay
www.skatejournal.com

[Firefly123]

Kay,
I was reading all the ISJ info and I read the GOE sheet. I understand how it relates to spins/spirals (or at least how it did, I guess a lot has changed).....But for jumps it just says "difficult entry" but doesn't specify. I watched my old videos from the 2006 Olympics and the commentators (Scott Hamilton? Sandra Belzac?) specifically mentioned that Slutskaya's 3 turn entry into the 2axel counted. They also mentioned the bracket into the 3lutz and traveling 3's into the 3loop so I know those count. I also heard about (Yu-Na Kim's?) spread eagle into 2axel being difficult because in a few competitions they mentioned it. But I'm not sure about the other stuff on the list????? Do you know if there is a reference sheet somewhere for this that I missed?

Ooohhh! Back pulls into a lutz....NICE!! Will add to list. Going to call it definite. (I think it would count.)

[gkelly]

Also, since an inside axel (bockle) and one foot axel (coolege) aren't recognized jumps if you did them immediately proceeding a recognized jump (for example bockle-loop or coolege-salchow) would they:
1. Be counted as a difficult entry to a jump?
and
2. Would that item count as as a combination or a individual jump since the first "jump" is not techincally recognized?

Inside axel is a nonlisted jump and counts as a transition. So, yes, if you did one immediately before another jump, it would probably be considered a difficult transition. If you did something like inside axel-double toe combination that would probably make the tech panel scratch their heads and try to figure out exactly what you did and whether it was a jump combination or a solo jump with a nonlisted jump as the entry (which is what they should eventually decide on unless you cheat the inside axel entry and they call it a single loop).

One-foot axel is considered a variant of a single axel. It is a listed jump. If you do a salchow or flip right from the landing edge, that will be considered a jump combination, so don't do three other combinations/sequences. If you do any steps or turns in between or if you do a one-foot axel on its own, it will be considered a 1A and will fill a jump slot. Count it as a jump when planning your program.

If I remember correctly, Jill Trenary used to do an inside axel into a 3sal.

Yes.

Midori Ito used to fake a lutz entry then turn and a 2axel. So she did LBO edge, LBO rocker? to LFO jump to an axel.

LBO counter.

Both those moves have also been done by a handful of other skaters, but Trenary and Ito were best known for them by doing them at high-profile events.

The falling leaf into a toe loop would be a jump sequence.

Not under any definition of jump sequence in use today. Fifteen or 20 years ago it would have.

Now the falling leaf would just be considered a transition.


It's not possible to list all possible difficult transitions because there's plenty of room for creativity in how to approach jumps.

Just doing complex steps into a jump without a break in the rhythm would be considered a difficult entry, except maybe in a short program where immediate preceding steps are required for one of the jump elements, even if the final three turn, mohawk, or step onto the takeoff edge is the same turn or step most commonly used in a simple approach to that jump.

Whether a judge gives credit for the difficult entry bullet point will depend not only on what the actual entry was, but also on how well it's executed. Probably the more seamless the better. But ever judge will draw the line in a slightly different place, so it will always be somewhat subjective.

And even if all judges agree that the entry was difficult, they might disagree on whether it was difficult enough or well executed enough to merit a GOE + in the absence of any other bullet points. And if the later phases of the jump end up having errors or weaknesses, those may cancel out any positive from the difficult entry.

I think all the examples you list could be considered difficult, but the ones that are borderline difficult (e.g., traveling threes into toe loop) would more likely need extra good execution to earn the plus.


P.S. My favorite thing about skating is all the different transitions and variations one can do to combine the basic skills in creative ways. Even when they don't count as "difficult" it's a physical and mental challenge to come up with new ways to get into an element. And in a competitive context unique transitions and variations should help the score for choreography.

[Doubletoe]

Entire post.

Yes! Everything Gkelly said, especially the fact that any listed jump landed on the other foot still counts as that jump (i.e., the one foot axel) and the issue of the inside axel possibly being confusing and mistaken for something else. These difficult entries should help your transitions score and choreography score, but it's absolutely true that they won't give you + GOE unless the other aspects of the jumps are excellent as well (unfortunately, since I keep using difficult entries to my lutzes and not getting above 0 GOE!)

[kayskate]

Double inside axel on quads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r6hF...ext=1&index=95

This may be a 2axel variant and counts only as a 2 axel on ice which is probably why we don't see it. IMO, it has to be harder than a basic 2 axel.

Kay

[Firefly123]

Inside axel is a nonlisted jump and counts as a transition. So, yes, if you did one immediately before another jump, it would probably be considered a difficult transition. If you did something like inside axel-double toe combination that would probably make the tech panel scratch their heads and try to figure out exactly what you did and whether it was a jump combination or a solo jump with a nonlisted jump as the entry (which is what they should eventually decide on unless you cheat the inside axel entry and they call it a single loop).

Ooooops. You're right. It's now so rare on ice it's not worth the chance unless the skater decides to give up a combo for it.....just in case...

One-foot axel is considered a variant of a single axel. It is a listed jump.

I didn't realize it was listed. So a skater could theoretically do one in place of a regular axel and still fit the axel requirement, right? (Because it wants an "axel type jump" not specifically the axel jump.)

Jill Trenary and Midori Ito. Wow!! (Going to add the counter entrence to the axel to the list.)

Not under any definition of jump sequence in use today. Fifteen or 20 years ago it would have...Now the falling leaf would just be considered a transition.

OK, so falling leaf or split jump immediately into a toe loop might meet the definition of "difficult entry" right? (I realize that as you said there are several variables and it's up to the judges in the end.....I'm just making a general list. Stuff that might qualify.....(I should edit the list and find better words for the catagories. Possibly change them to Probably and Maybe.)

It's not possible to list all possible difficult transitions because there's plenty of room for creativity in how to approach jumps.

I defintely agree. I'm just trying to get an idea of what has been done and would commonly count. It's not a "definitive list" by any means. Just kind of a "suggestion list."

I am having problems comming up with a transition for the flip jump. Can any of you guys think of something? I saw Evan do a LOF spiral (on the flat of the skate, not the edge) and then 3 turn directly up into a 3flip. I'm thinking he did that for this feature (difficult entry). Do you think this would count? Can you think of anything else? (From what gkelly said, I guess any one foot turn that placed the skater on the correct LOF takeoff edge might work.) Hummmm........

Even when they don't count as "difficult" it's a physical and mental challenge to come up with new ways to get into an element.

It makes my head hurt.

[Firefly123]

Kay,

This may be a 2axel variant and counts only as a 2 axel on ice which is probably why we don't see it.

I guess from what everyone is saying "inside axel" is not a listed jump; therefore the double would also be unlisted and not receive any credit.....But it would look totally cool!!!

Here it is!! 2 inside axel on ice. I knew I had seen it somewhere. (It's at 3:39).
http://<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XNP6VaJZzE0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XNP6VaJZzE0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[kayskate]

I am having problems comming up with a transition for the flip jump. Can any of you guys think of something? I saw Evan do a LOF spiral (on the flat of the skate, not the edge) and then 3 turn directly up into a 3flip. I'm thinking he did that for this feature (difficult entry). Do you think this would count? Can you think of anything else? (From what gkelly said, I guess any one foot turn that placed the skater on the correct LOF takeoff edge might work.) Hummmm........

I've got it! You'll love this. In his 02 Oly long Plushenko did a 3axel-half loop-3flip! Wow! ~1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTvPYACA_c

Kay
www.skatejournal.com

[kayskate]

Trennary's 1foot axel-3sal. ~1:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyMoz...eature=related

Kay

[Firefly123]

Oh....I LOVE it!!! So under ISJ that would be counted as a 2 jump combo but would only get an axel value so it would "equal" an axel + 3salchow. So even though it was really hard and impressive, the best she could hope for would be + 3 GOE. Still a lot less base value than a 3Lutz or 3Flip combo.....

[backspin]

Trennary's 1foot axel-3sal. ~1:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyMoz...eature=related

Kay

that's very cool!

[Doubletoe]

I am having problems comming up with a transition for the flip jump. Can any of you guys think of something? I saw Evan do a LOF spiral (on the flat of the skate, not the edge) and then 3 turn directly up into a 3flip. I'm thinking he did that for this feature (difficult entry). Do you think this would count? Can you think of anything else? (From what gkelly said, I guess any one foot turn that placed the skater on the correct LOF takeoff edge might work.) Hummmm........

Or any unlisted half jump that puts you on a back inside edge (or forward inside edge for a mohawk-flip)

[smarts1]

They say it helps the GOE, but that's the last thing that judges are really looking at. Skaters who actually do some difficult moves into a jump are never recognized for it... The GOE of a jump is really only based on height and flow out of the jump. I never understood why commentators even say that difficult entries get more points because they don't!!! The only thing they help is the transition mark...

[Aussie Willy]

They say it helps the GOE, but that's the last thing that judges are really looking at. Skaters who actually do some difficult moves into a jump are never recognized for it... The GOE of a jump is really only based on height and flow out of the jump. I never understood why commentators even say that difficult entries get more points because they don't!!! The only thing they help is the transition mark...

If you look at the latest ISU Communication 1611, it does say under the Update Guidelines for marking of positive GOEs for jump elements:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry

So the judges are meant to consider it.

Agree with everything Gkelly says.

The main consideration for getting a good GOE on the jump is how well it is done. If it is not done well, then it is not going to help on the GOE.

What the judge would then probably consider is the transition mark. I think I would give a skater some credit that they are making an effort to put in transitions going into their elements.

[viennese]

Lutz:
Back shoot-the-duck on an outside edge
Spread eagle (outside edge)

Nancy Kerrigan used to do both of these, sometimes in the short program.

Flip:
Forward outside edge spiral, though there's likely a pause or step between the spiral's end and the step into the flip.

[Firefly123]

Oh...I really like the back shoot-the-duck. Never thought of that! Thanks!!

[jjane45]

This is an awesome thread!

[LilJen]

Difficult jump entries I've seen and at:
Matt Savoie did a back inside 3 into a 3axel (impossible!). Jeremy Abbott regularly does a swing choctaw-3-3-edge change then step into 3axel (again, totally nuts). Savoie used to do a lot of hydroblades into jumps, back drags into jumps, both of which take some serious leg muscles and speed! A few seasons ago wasn't Mao doing bracket-bracket-3axel? Some skaters do an Ina Bauer into a lutz. I really admire someone who can up the ante like this. It's exponentially more difficult to do jumps this way. (and more interesting to watch!)

[smarts1]

^ I never understood that... I mean some of these entries (back three turn into triple axel) are definitely very very difficult, but is really something like a spread eagle or an ina bauer that difficult into something like a flip or a lutz? After all, right before the jump you'll get back on two feet with the balance you need to do it.