Skating UP????

[Firefly123]

In all of those disciplines, the actual skating is paramount. In none of them, not even singles and pairs freestyle, is there an important event for highlight tricks only with actual skating irrelevant.

You do bring up an interesting point. With all the disciplines within "figure" skating there is nothing at all that just hilights jumps and spins except (as you mentioned "fluf events" that aren't ment to be taken seriously.

The sport of figure skating is the sport of figure skating.

Well.... if you notice, they kind of took the figures out (at least at an "official" level). So "figure" skating is a bit of a misnomer nowadays. And if the name of the sport can be tweaked (as it seems it can be) ....I say we do the same for the "skating" part as well.... To quote Julliet, "What's in a name?"

And, of course, for people who don't want to do the "tricks" (jumps & sins) they have a discipline called dance.

For limited tricks but heavy skating skills you have theatrical (showcase).

But for nothing for heavy tricks but limited/no "skating" skills. (And I don't mean that these people don't have skating skills. It's obvious that you need a certain degree of "skating" tallent to do decent tricks. But chatows in both directions and twizzles in both directions.) ....Um.....Seems like a "trick" catagory would be a fairly relevant catagory. So why no catagory?

This all Begs the Question: What, exactly, does "figure" skating fear (and I do smell fear) about letting people just do tricks (and dumping the corresponding twizzles in both directions)....That the flashy tricks will overshadow the acutal "beautiful" edgework and eventually that (the tricks) is all people will want to see and/or do? (At ice shows the non-skaters are usually not there to just watch the ice dancers. Most of them do want to see the tricks because they are flashy.)

And no, I can't start my own event. You know very well that is exactly like a mom crossing her arms over her chest and telling her 10 year-old daughter she can either follow her rules or move out and get her own place.

And the fact remains, you can (and will) tell me I'm wrong all day long.....But not wanting an event for only tricks and not removing the MITF or allowing them to be elective.....On some level you (the powers that be in "iceland") are scared of something. (I'm just not sure what it is.)

[gkelly]

Well.... if you notice, they kind of took the figures out (at least at an "official" level). So "figure" skating is a bit of a misnomer nowadays. And if the name of the sport can be tweaked (as it seems it can be) ....I say we do the same for the "skating" part as well.... To quote Julliet, "What's in a name?"

Well, let's just call it ice skating then.

Or freestyle skating for the discipline that involves jumps, spins, spirals, steps, edge work, etc.

The skating is still the basis.

A sport of ice jumps and ice spins with no skating would still not be part of ice skating.

And, of course, for people who don't want to do the "tricks" (jumps & sins) they have a discipline called dance.

Ice dance has a lot more restrictions than just not doing jumps and s(p)ins.

You have to skate to certain kinds of music. If you're doing compulsory dance you have to do specific steps.

If you're doing free dance you have to do lifts and twizzles and dance spins . . . which means you need a partner of the opposite sex and compatible body size.

Someone who wants to do only edges and steps on the ice and doesn't want to skate to music no longer has a discipline to compete in either.

Someone who doesn't want to do jumps or spins and doesn't want skate with a partner (or can't find a suitable one) doesn't have an elite discipline to aspire to either. Solo dance and artistic/interpretive are still pretty much fluff events too.

There isn't really a current event for pure skating technique without tricks for solo skaters. Some club comps offer MITF events or footwork events, on par with a jump or spin or compulsory moves event.

For limited tricks but heavy skating skills you have theatrical (showcase).

Still new and and fluffy. It exists because people who wanted to do it built it. If enough people want to do only tricks, they can build that.

But showcase or theatre on ice doesn't require heavy skating skills. A lot of participants put more effort into the costumes and the acting or music expression than into the actual skating. The skating powers-that-be don't want to see ("fear") events that are all about props and costumes and upper-body expression and not about skating skills. The events that allow this have come into existence because there's a demand for it, but they will never be part of the sport as sport, especially at the elite level.

That's what pro skating is for. Or was. Not part of the sport.

But for nothing for heavy tricks but limited/no "skating" skills. (And I don't mean that these people don't have skating skills. It's obvious that you need a certain degree of "skating" tallent to do decent tricks. But chatows in both directions and twizzles in both directions.) ....Um.....Seems like a "trick" catagory would be a fairly relevant catagory. So why no catagory?

There are fluff categories for this at club competitions.

Most skaters who learn to jump and spin on ice learn to skate on ice at the same time. Even if they're much better at and much more interested in the tricks, they learn the minimum skating skills along with the tricks.

You are an exception. There are only a handful of skaters involved in the sport who are 1) adults, and 2) able to do double jumps but not able or willing to pass the gold or intermediate tests, 3) same sex and comparable age.

Most adult skaters who want to participate in the sport with double jumps either already have at least mid-level skating skills and tests to prove it from when they were younger, or else they are willing to work on their skating skills at the same time they work on their jumps, even if they like the jumps better.

So the existing competition categories are designed to accommodate the existing skaters, and newcomers to the sport need to plan their training to fit those categories.

When they're already active in the existing sport and part of the community, they can also work from within to expand the offerings to include new events, if there are enough other skaters interested in participating in such events..

Competition levels are divided by skating skill (because even freestyle skating is primarily a skating contest) and also subdivided by age as appropriate. These divisions are intended to make the competitions as fair as possible for the participants.

The jump content for the various levels and age groups has limits or requirements to try to keep each competition meaningful and on a relatively even playing field.

It's a lot easier to subdivide groups into very similar skill sets and age groups when there are huge numbers of skaters at that level. E.g., there are thousands of prepreliminary-level girls in the US. There might be several dozen entering any given nonqual competition. So the event can be divided into age groups so that 7-year-olds don't have to compete against teenagers
and into high (axel allowed) and low (no axel) events, and now there's also a "test track" event with stricter jump and spin limits.

There are much fewer boys who skate, so if even two boys sign up for a prepreliminary event at the same competition they may have to compete against each other even if one is 7 and the other is 17 and one has passed the tests and has an axel and the other is "skating up." Otherwise they'd have no event.

When there are very few skaters at a given age and skill set, it's harder to make meaningful groupings.

There are a few hundred adult women in the US who can pass the bronze or silver MITF and can do most single jumps. So there are events for these skaters that do (silver) and don't (bronze) allow axels and that may be divided by age when there are enough entries.

There are much fewer adult men at any level. Like boys, they have to plan which events to enter even to find competitors. And age groups will likely be combined.

There are almost no adults who can pass the bronze or silver moves but no higher and can also do double jumps. You're one of a very small handful. The others might be many years younger. They might be male. They might live 3000 miles away from you. There just isn't a demand for an adult event at that skill level.

That's why I think that if you want to compete with your current skill set and minimal test requirements, you should compete in Open Juvenile where doubles are allowed and at least you'd be guaranteed that all the competitors are over 13.

This all Begs the Question: What, exactly, does "figure" skating fear (and I do smell fear)

And the fact remains, you can (and will) tell me I'm wrong all day long.....But not wanting an event for only tricks and not removing the MITF or allowing them to be elective.....On some level you (the powers that be in "iceland") are scared of something. (I'm just not sure what it is.)

I don't think it's fear so much as maintaining standards and maintaining the identity of the sport. Skating competitions are about skating.

They don't want a sport that's all gymnastics on ice, because that would be a different sport -- it wouldn't be skating.

[daisies]

Also, like I said I might look jerky to my competitors.

"Might"? Sorry to break it to you, but mission already accomplished.

I hereby nominate gkelly for sainthood. I can only aspire to such patience.

[Firefly123]

Wouldn't it self-regulate, though? I mean if you let the MITF requirement drop for freestyle (and just let skaters take the USFS freestyle tests to gauge their "correct" level,) but kept the competition requirements for a well balanced program with transitions and step /spiral sequences intact, then as many posters pointed out, a skater who did not bother with MITF and only loaded up on jumps and spins while ignoring the rest would be slammed to the ground by the judges. (Well, unless they were carrying a full set of flawless quads including axel under the ISJ. )

[carriecmu0503]

Wouldn't it self-regulate, though? I mean if you let the MITF requirement drop for freestyle (and just let skaters take the USFS freestyle tests to gauge their "correct" level,) but kept the competition requirements for a well balanced program with transitions and step /spiral sequences intact, then as many posters pointed out a skater who did not bother with MITF and only loaded up on jumps and spins while ignoring the rest would be slammed to the ground by the judges (Well, unless they were carrying a full set of flawless quads including axel under the ISJ. )

I am usually a very nice, very patient person. People on this board have done their very best to be helpful to you, but all you continue to do is complain, complain, complain. I think the only thing left is for someone to put it in black on white terms for you: if you don't like the rules of figure skating, then don't participate! It's that simple! I can't understand why you are so determined to compete when you know will get slammed for having zero actual skating in your program, anyways. Why not just do club exhibitions/ shows if all you want to do is show off your jumps and spins? Your complete lack of respect for people who actually want to help you, such as people on this board and coaches who would be happy to teach you (if you remotely had a good attitude), is astounding.

[Firefly123]

Going to stop now before this gets locked. Probably will anyway as people continue to bash me.

But I really do think that if you remove MITF, the system would self regulate due to the fact that MITF are so prevailent in the judging standards for the freestyle events. Anyone who ignored edges/transitions would automatically be marked down for it. That is a fact, not an argument or a complaint. It's just a fact.

OK end of my posting onto this thread. Whoever wants it locked up. Keep bashing me.

[Stormy]

Going to stop now before this gets locked. Probably will anyway as people continue to bash me.

But I really do think that if you remove MITF, the system would self regulate due to the fact that MITF are so prevailent in the judging standards for the freestyle events. Anyone who ignored edges/transitions would automatically be marked down for it. That is a fact, not an argument or a complaint. It's just a fact.

OK end of my posting onto this thread. Whoever wants it locked up. Keep bashing me.

Your "fact" is wrong. What you want will not happen. Period. Had you been willing to listen to everyone here, and on Skatingforums, and on the Yahoo group, it wouldn't have gotten this far. But you continue to whine, complain and think yours is the only opinion that matters. When you were competing roller and someone came into your sport and demanded the rules changed because they didn't like them wouldn't you have been offended? Take what we all said as "bashing" if you want, sorry if you don't like hearing that your "facts" are wrong.

[Skittl1321]

I don't think the system would self regulate. It didn't after figures were dropped, and USFSA introduced MITF to help skaters keep those skills.


I don't think it's a fact, like you state. It's your best guess. My guess is different. Neither is fact.

[daisies]

Someone upthread suggested you seek professional help. I don't think that was a bash. You exhibit clear signs of narcissism, and it's not too late to address them. Good luck.

[sk8lady]

"Well.... if you notice, they kind of took the figures out (at least at an "official" level)."

Actually, figures are gradually being added back into the MITF and will be required at a variety of levels starting Sept. 1.

One of the reasons the MITF are being repeatedly tweaked is because folks on that committee, like Janet Champion, would really like to see kids working hard on the skills required by MITF and taking longer with them. At the last PSA conference I went to, figures were repeatedly referred to as a way to help install higher quality necessary skills in high-level young skaters.

IMO, if you removed the requirement for MITF and didn't replace them with figures, you'd have a bunch of kids seriously injuring themselves jumping so young that you'd make the pool of national contenders a lot smaller. At least requiring MITFs slow kids' progress down a little and requires them to have some basic technique. One of the guys at my rink, who is self-taught, can do doubles but can't find an edge to save his life, so he doesn't test or compete.

I hereby nominate gkelly for sainthood. I can only aspire to such patience.

And I second this! You must be a therapist in the real world!! gkelly, you are the MAN! (or WOMAN, I guess!)

[Doubletoe]

I was wondering how long it would take for the topic to come back to this. Definitely a good time for Pandora to go back into her box.

[coskater]

Oh pooh! I missed it!!

[aster]

IMO, if you removed the requirement for MITF and didn't replace them with figures, you'd have a bunch of kids seriously injuring themselves jumping so young that you'd make the pool of national contenders a lot smaller.

Yup -- the injury rate already shot up when they went from figures to field moves because a strong skater can pass through senior moves by 10 or 11 (or even 9), which never happened with figures, so by the time you were a pre-teen (which is the most dangerous time to be practicing jumps for hours and hours a day without a break), there was no longer anything to slow down your jumping. And that was before IJS added even more stress to growing bodies. I can't imagine what would happen if they got rid of moves completely.

[zaphyre14]

Everything in lskating is based on edges and turns. If you can't - or don't want to learn those skills then you really aren't learning to skate. You're just playing around with tricks, not skills.

[tangerine_dream]

I've skimmed through this thread. All I can really say is, if you can't pass intermediate MITF, I'll venture that your double jumps are probably not good enough to get ratified as such. All jumps stem from great basic skating. If you don't have that, you do not have good jumps.

Don't get me wrong, some skaters have better edges than others. But if you can do a double lutz then you can pass Intermediate MITF (even if you need to work on it a bit to get there...), otherwise you don't have a double lutz, you have one of those 1 1/4 little hop things that people think are doubles but really wouldn't even be ratified as a clean single. That is unfortunately very prevalent in both children and adults. How many times have I heard "I landed a double!!!!" only to have seen the jump beforehand myself and have thought "that was 3/4 of a jump and 1 1/4 of a spin on the ice". People sometimes don't have a clear grasp of what they are doing out there.

Bottom line, if you have ALL your doubles clean, then Int MITF should be a piece of cake. So, either your jumps aren't what you think they are, or you just don't "get" figure skating. Figure skating isn't all about jumps, it never will be, so if that's all you're in it for then might as well not bother competing because people with your outlook always finish last. I'm sure Plushenko is regretting basing his Olympic dreams on one jump, too.

I don't see why you bother with figure skating, just go back to roller if you liked it better. You're not going to change the sport. I hate to tell you but USFS doesn't care what a no-test adult skater thinks about their system.

I'm being blunt because you're 100% delusional and sometimes it helps more than sugar-coating. I don't mean to be offensive, but you really need to understand the sport because you're just wasting your time thinking you'll change anything. If you don't like the sport don't try to change it, leave it. Find something that actually suits you because clearly this isn't it.