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Thread: Skating UP????

  1. #61
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    As I remember back to adult testing before the MITF requirement, I seem to recall the program for the test had to include footwork sequences. Don't remember what they were, but someone here can probably clarify. Didn't these require certain skills we now call MITF and test under that system?
    Yes. That is my complaint. I don't mind having MITF or footwork or whatever you want to call it comprise a part of the freestyle test. (To be weighed against the jumps/spins as in done currently under the ISI testing system.) That's fair.

    However....To make MITF it's own test. And then to force the freestylist to pass it before they are able to test freestyle and not to allow the freestylist to use their jumps/spins to raise the mark of a low MITF....Now that is what boils me. IMO, MITF is given an undo emphasis that it doesn't deserve. And the necessary edges argument for successful jumps spins doesn't make sense. Two words: Surya Bonaly. Also, by the reasoning that good edges make a better jumper, than any ice dancer should be easily capable of at least triples since they have superior edges....See it doesn't work.

    P.S. I like you. Please don't be mad at me.

  2. #62
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    Didn't Surya Bonaly have to do figures? Her edges might not have been great for an elite- but she still did them.

    I'm sure her edge quality could knock the socks off of even a good adult skater.

  3. #63
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    Yes, I'm sure she did. They didn't remove patch until the early 90s, right?

    I think they should let you guys do patch as it's own event. Don't know why they don't. I guess a lot of skaters like it. Roller gives it it's own event at Nats and Worlds. There you go. Civil disobedience. A whole freestyle routine full of patch. Actually, John Curry did that once, didn't he?

    Link

    Firefly watching video and shaking head. Why? oh Why? Oh the humanity....

    Admin Edit: Fixed link.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayskate View Post
    Maybe someone else can add more info here.
    As I remember back to adult testing before the MITF requirement, I seem to recall the program for the test had to include footwork sequences. Don't remember what they were, but someone here can probably clarify. Didn't these require certain skills we now call MITF and test under that system?
    The freestyle tests just require steps, but they don't specify what kind of steps have to be included.

    See the forms for Adult Bronze, Silver, and Gold freestyle tests.

    Only gold requires a full step sequence. And there's no reason it couldn't consist of all easy steps (forward threes, mohawks, half jumps in the preferred direction, non-turning steps like chasses).

    That wouldn't score very well even in 6.0 competition, but it would fulfill the test requirement.

    Moves in the Field tests systematically require all the three turns (forward and backward, inside and outside, on both feet) on the Adult Silver (or standard Prejuvenile) test and all the brackets on the Adult Gold or Intermediate test.

    Novice MITF requires all the counters, Junior requires all the rockers, most of the choctaws are included in one move or another at those levels as well.

    Twizzles and loops are also being added starting with Intermediate as of this coming September.


    In competition, Adult Gold and Masters levels currently require either a step sequence or a spiral sequence. That may change in the near future now that the ISU has changed the spiral sequence definitions at the elite levels.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    I think they should let you guys do patch as it's own event. Don't know why they don't. I guess a lot of skaters like it.
    There was an all figures competition held in Portland, OR in July 2009. Maybe a little research is due before you get all and "oh, the humanity"? The dramatics aren't necessary. We're all well versed in our sport here. You have to remember roller isn't figure skating. Just because they do something at their nationals, dosen't mean we have to. And vice versa; they're two completely different sports. I think it would help you some to try to remember that fact. I wouldn't start roller skating and then begin to demand all the rules change for me if there's something about their system I didn't like.

  6. #66
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    Maybe a little research is due before you get all and "oh, the humanity"? The dramatics aren't necessary.
    Actually, that was supposed to be funny. Sorry.

    There was an all figures competition held in Portland, OR in July 2009.
    That is cool. Yes that is what I'm saying.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbie S View Post
    Since Firefly can do double jumps through flip, I would hope she would realize that she is waaaay above the Pre-Bronze level, and would either compete at the level appropriate for her tech ability (which would be Gold or Masters, and would require the passing of MIF tests) or just continue to compete ISI.

    IMO, USFS made a big mistake when they removed the disqual rule based on ISI testing, but I hope ISI skaters will realize that just b/c they haven't passed any USFS tests, doesn't mean they should steamroll over beginner adults.
    Well, if the main reason she wants to compete is to show people that the system is wrong--that she should not have to do MITF in order to do freestyle--this is a perfect example of what the drawbacks of requiring MITF would be, particularly as far as adults are concerned. Certainly practicing MITF makes for better, stronger skaters but if you're adult enough to have your own set of tests, should you be forced to do MITF if you don't want to? Understand I'm playing devil's advocate here--doing moves and dance have improved my freestyle tremendously and I think anyone who wants to be a good skater ought to do them, or figures. But the way the system is set up, skaters can only compete at or below their lowest MITF level, which for this gal would be Pre-Bronze. The MITF requirement actually came after the establishment of the separate adult tests--initially, you could take the freestyle tests without having taken MITF tests.

  8. #68
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    Well since she is technically qualified to skate up to PreBronze, she could if she wanted to.

    But she wants to skate at a level where she can do double jumps and flying spins, so that won't work.

    Of course, even at those levels she wants to do whatever she wants- so why not do that at PreBronze? She could go out with a1:30 program of double jumps and high level spins. Of course, each time there would be a deduction for an illegal element. She could even make the program longer if she wanted, but there would be a penalty for that too.

  9. #69
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    More or less what Surya Bonaly did in one of her last competition--did an illegal (but great-looking) backflip landed on one foot.

  10. #70

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    I'm definitely not mad. I think this discussion is interesting. It has made me think more about this sport and its history. As for Bonaly: I love her. She is a great skater. Supposedly, she got dinged for her edge quality and MITF. I have no doubt she was pretty good at edges compared to most skaters, though may be not other elites. Her quality of skating got her World silver (which was huge disappointment to her if we recall the infamous medal ceremony), trips to Olys, Euro titles, a pro career, etc. She is one of a kind. I mean that in a good way. After Dorothy, she is my fav female skater. Even named a cat after her. I'm certainly glad Surya's reputed lack of edge quality did not keep her out of the game, b/c she was a joy to watch. Similarly, I am glad Lucinda's lack of jumps did not keep her out of the game. She has spins like no other.

    Supposedly, Janet Lynn was not highly skilled at figs, though she could probably skate circles around most skaters (pun intended). Hence, the short program. Even when the rules changed to favor skaters w her skills, she did not win the title. But she instituted change that ultimately led to the demise of figs, the sport's original core. As I understand it, MITF was a way to bring back figs in a FS context. This is more apparent now w the new changes that have brought loop figs back and other skills. Again, this seems to be an answer to lower edge quality and over-emphasis on jumps. Read: teen jumping beans.

    Another ex: Plushenko's recent Oly silver. Lots have been said about this program and results that I will not restate. Apparently, Plush was upset that jumping did not beat a well-balanced program. Not necessarily everyone's opinion, but the end result.

    I read some where that Russia does not (or did not) have a test structure. Don't know how true this is. Apparently, skaters were sent to events their coaches and fed thought were appropriate for their level. Plush and Slutskaya did well under this system; maybe not exactly what they wanted, but who can argue w their career achievements?

    At the end of the day, this seems to support Flyfly's argument to a pt. Skaters have been hugely successful while falling short in jumps, figs, and/or in-betweens, but they missed the big prize. OTOH, Shuba won Olys by having great figs, something the audience did not understand. Even the premise of Ice Castles was based on a great FS skater who did not have the right mix of skills in figs. This is more apparent in the novel than the movie.

    Kay
    www.skatejournal.com

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayskate View Post
    Even the premise of Ice Castles was based on a great FS skater who did not have the right mix of skills in figs. This is more apparent in the novel than the movie.
    There was a novel?

  12. #72

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    You bet there was a novel even a photonovel. Check out listings on amazon or ebay. You can probably get a copy for 1$. it's a fun read.

    Kay

  13. #73
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    FYI, the novel was based on the screenplay, not the other way around.

  14. #74
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    Of course, even at those levels she wants to do whatever she wants- so why not do that at PreBronze? She could go out with a1:30 program of double jumps and high level spins. Of course, each time there would be a deduction for an illegal element. She could even make the program longer if she wanted, but there would be a penalty for that too.
    I had thought if I did something like this.....(besides possibly looking kind of jerky to the other skaters) ...I might get banned from the USFS or in some way disciplined. I guess a lot of rinks require the card to be on the ice, or at least require you not to be in "bad standing." I don't want to loose my practice rinks because the USFS is angry with me. I realize I can push them so far, but at the end of the day, they are the head organization and the rinks/clubs etc. "belong" to them, so to speak. (Kind of like a passive-agressive thing with a parent. You can push them, but it is their house. As my mother used to remind me a lot. )

    I had thought of doing something like this in a different way....

    Put in a real effort for, say, a year or so and see where I get with the MITF. Then if I hit a wall say, at Gold Level or so, (hopefully, I can get that far if I try. Even though there is a lower passing average, there are now twizzles on the Intermediate test). So, when I hit the wall I will put together a routine and skate it and get hammered for "illegal content" and/or lack of artistic elements. Of course, I will come in last but as I said that honestly doesn't bother me.

    The problem is I'm sure I will be "spoken to" by a judge/official. Maybe they will let me "slide" the first few meets, but after that:

    a) They might become nasty.
    b) Could they ban me/take some sort of action against me for "bad sportsmanship," basicaly for not following the rules????

    Also, like I said I might look jerky to my competitors. But adults tend to be a small group. Most are probably on this board anyways (so they probably "get it").

  15. #75
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    No offense, but I think you are overestimating the impact anything you do will have on the USFS! All you will get from judges will be a number on a sheet. The people running the competition, or competing against you, would be the ones who might be annoyed. The USFS--and the PSA--really has a much stronger stake, and therefore interest, in up and coming young skaters who might go on to the national level than in adult skaters. The USFS is not going to ban you unless you hire someone to wallop your competitor on the knee with a baton.

  16. #76
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    The people running the competition, or competing against you, would be the ones who might be annoyed.
    Do you think they do anything other than yell at me and/or ask me to leave the rink and ban me from future invitationals at their rinks?

    I doubt competitors would be too annoyed as I would defintely come in dead last if I was even allowed finish the program. (I will probably be the first skater to actually receive a negative mark. ) More than likely the music will cut off and I will be asked to exit the floor. At Gold level I might be allowed to continue since they will just assume I got the requirements mixed up (at least for the first few meets.)

    The USFS is not going to ban you unless you hire someone to wallop your competitor on the knee with a baton.
    Cool. I just don't want to end up back in the rain on my inlines at the skatepark because no rink will allow me onto their ice. I may be tempted to throw in a few "unallowed" jumps and spins, but I'm certainly not going to wallop anyone.

    IMO, USFS made a big mistake when they removed the disqual rule based on ISI testing, but I hope ISI skaters will realize that just b/c they haven't passed any USFS tests, doesn't mean they should steamroll over beginner adults.
    Is this rule really gone?

    I think it would help you some to try to remember that fact. I wouldn't start roller skating and then begin to demand all the rules change for me if there's something about their system I didn't like.
    Actually, this would not be an issue on roller because there is not a testing structure that requires you to skate at a specific level. You can choose your own level (well, up to Sophomore which is their version of Novice). Group A is for "beginners" and Group B is "competitive." If you chose to skate Sophomore B with single jumps and upright spins (instead of A) then good luck. The embarrassment is your own. The point is, no one tells you that you are not allowed to do so. You can if you want to. Also, there is very little by way of "program requirements" at least until you get up to Junior/Senior level. If you are a good spinner like Skittl and Kay then build your program around spins. If you are a good jumper (like me) then throw in a lot of jumps and long combinations. (Theoretically, the program is supposed to be "well-balanced and relate to the music" but that leaves quite a bit of leeway.) Of course, this allows skaters to develop "uneven skills" but roller uses the judging system to weed out the skaters who are too unevenly developed (after Sophomore, the skater must place at Regionals to advance to Junior and Juniors must place at Regionals to advance to Senior. Only Seniors represent the US at international competitions). So roller self-regulates in this way while ice uses the testing structure.

  17. #77
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    Is this rule really gone?
    Not quite yet, since the rulebook has not been revised- I think only the "emergency" things are in effect at the end of Governing Council. But it has been striken by the governing council, so when the new rulebook comes out, it will be gone.


    If you are a good spinner like Skittl and Kay
    hahaha. Kay could spin circles around me. I'm just good for a beginner adult. Based on her journal, she's good for a skater.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8lady View Post
    No offense, but I think you are overestimating the impact anything you do will have on the USFS!
    Yeah, really. Firefly, you might want to seek some professional help, seriously - you have grandiose opinions of yourself and seem to enjoy being antagonistic and oppositional.

    If you want to show up and compete some crazy program, go ahead - what you will accomplish is alienating the other adult skaters who might otherwise want to be your friends. I can pretty much guarantee that USFS is not going to care what you do - as sk8lady said, they've got more important things to worry about than some crazy adult skater, and so does the Adult Committee. They're just going to write you off as a nutcase (and as an example of why adult skating needs its current rules).

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Not quite yet, since the rulebook has not been revised- I think only the "emergency" things are in effect at the end of Governing Council. But it has been striken by the governing council, so when the new rulebook comes out, it will be gone.
    The non-emergency rule changes passed at Governing Council go into effect on Sept 1, but most summer comps will use the new season's rules, so it will essentially be in effect before then.

  19. #79
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    Yeah, really. Firefly, you might want to seek some professional help, seriously - you have grandiose opinions of yourself and seem to enjoy being antagonistic and oppositional.
    Firefly laughing. Wasn't sure how much power they had and if they could/would bother banning certain individuals. All figure skating ice seems to be under their contol. Without that ice I will be stuck practicing at the skatepark. If you knew the skatepark then you'd understand that my fear is justified.

    A General Rule in Life (especially for us borderline personality egotistical passive agressive neurotic rebels): Best to know how far you can push things before you start pushing (or you can push yourself right off a cliff.)

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Do you think they do anything other than yell at me and/or ask me to leave the rink and ban me from future invitationals at their rinks?

    I doubt competitors would be too annoyed as I would defintely come in dead last if I was even allowed finish the program. (I will probably be the first skater to actually receive a negative mark. ) More than likely the music will cut off and I will be asked to exit the floor. At Gold level I might be allowed to continue since they will just assume I got the requirements mixed up (at least for the first few meets.)
    The first time you do this, anyone who hasn't been reading your online threads and doesn't know you've been talking about this doing this will just assume you're clueless and don't know what you're doing. They might think you made a stupid choice not to read the rules and work with a coach.

    If you do it repeatedly at competitions where the same adult competitors, officials, and/or local organizing committee members are involved, those people would probably realize that you're doing it on purpose. So would anyone who connects your behavior in competition with your posts on these boards.

    Maybe you would get disqualified from the event if you break its rules sufficiently. If they realize that you're competing at the wrong test level before the event starts, they might not let you skate.

    It's highly unlikely that there will be any high-ranking USFS officials involved in a local event. Maybe a couple of judges with national competition or referee appointments. Chances are no one on the committees relevant to the rules you want to challenge.

    The high-ranking USFS officers and the majority of members who contribute to decisions at Governing Council will have no idea who you are or what your little statement was at this local event.

    You might feel better about making your statement, but you might not be be sending a message to anyone but yourself.



    Ask yourself:

    Do you want to be part of the adult figure skating community?

    If so, recognize that
    *all adults have challenges (physical, financial, geographic, etc.) to deal with
    *everyone has different favorite and least favorite skills that may or may not fit into the competition and test structures that are designed to group competitors into meaningful levels with similar skill sets
    *everyone has different backgrounds in terms of what rules and test structures they learned to skate under and what off-ice skills they bring to skating

    Most adult skaters have head starts in one area and a lot of ground to make up in others. If they want to compete, they have to work through the process.

    The sport is run by volunteers and structured to meet the needs of the majority.

    If you want to compete in the sport of figure skating, you need to work through the process.

    Take the tests, enter competitions at the appropriate levels and don't break too many rules, make friends, get involved with your local club,
    and work develop an event at a local competition that would allow room for you to compete the skills you like best against other skaters with similar skills.

    If you don't care about the adult community and just want to enter an event where you can do double jumps with advanced-beginner skating skills, test through Prejuvenile and enter a Prejuvenile or Open Juvenile event where you can compete against teenagers with similar skill sets.


    The sport of figure skating is the sport of figure skating. There are and historically have been different disciplines focusing on the art of skating perfect circles (school figures), the art of drawing complex patterns on the ice with blades (special figures), the art of skating complex programs to music with highlight moves such as jumps and spins connected by complex skating (freestyle), the art of two skaters skating complex programs with highlights such as lifts, death spirals, and side-by-side or intertwined freestyle moves linked together with complex skating (pair skating), the art of two skaters in physical contact translating ballroom or more recently theatrical styles of dance to music onto the ice through skating skills (ice dance), the art of many skaters creating complex skating on the ice in physical contact (synchronized skating), etc.

    In all of those disciplines, the actual skating is paramount. In none of them, not even singles and pairs freestyle, is there an important event for highlight tricks only with actual skating irrelevant. At best there are little fluff jump, spin, or compulsory moves events that are sometimes held for fun at club competitions.

    It sounds as though you're only interested in jumps and spins, that you have no interest in actual skating.

    If jumps and spins are all you're interested, there is not a discipline for you in the sport of figure skating. Sorry, but there's no place in figure skating for people who don't want to figure skate.

    If you're willing to work on your skating and share your frustrations with others who also struggle with some skills, you'll be welcome.

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