Skating UP????

[Firefly123]

I'd honestly suggest to you to try to pass the Intermediate MIF/FS first and try your hand at Masters Int/Novice and see how you fare before jumping in to the "big time". A lot of the Jr/Sr ladies are former competitive Senior level skaters and they skate like it. I know this sounds blunt and I don't mean it to be, but just because you have some doubles doesn't mean you'd be competitive in Jr/Sr at all, at the National (and sometimes Sectional) level, at least.

I do understand what you're getting at (and no offence taken).

Recently, as you know, I have been considering taking the USFS tests and competing (primarily because the ISI competitions are so far away.) As I see it I basically have 2 options:

1. (Probably reflecting most forum members' position) says: Stay at a lower level where the jumps are capped but work very hard on your transitions/footwork/presentation. In this manner you will improve your basic skating skills and become a much better and complete skater. And, under a 6.0 judging system, this may be the best approach if you want to get the hightest scores.

2. While it's true that you have to take MITF in order to compete, you can "get away with" only taking the tests up to the very lowest level in order to use your jumps. If you can "skip" by using the "skate up" option then.....GREAT!! Then, you can continue working on the jumps and don't have to bother very much with the transitions and other elements that you are not fond of. Under ISJ this might actually be a doable strategy because the jumps are worth so much base value (although, granted, the adult skaters usually use 6.0 at local meets, so it's probably not a very good idea there.)

The upside of this approach is that, obviously (because I am immature or lazy or whatever) this appeals to me the most. The downside is that I'd never be able to use the skate up option at qualifying events so I couldn't use my best items at any of them. Although, realistically, I cannot afford to travel outside my state, so I'd probably only attend Nats if it was a Lake Placid, anyways. So this option might work since I'd only be attending local events (where they often combine levels), in the first place.

Not trying to make anyone mad. Just reviewing my options.

A lot of the Jr/Sr ladies are former competitive Senior level skaters and they skate like it.

Yes, I have seen some on youtube.

[Skittl1321]

Then, you can continue working on the jumps and don't have to bother very much with the transitions and other elements that you are not fond of. Under ISJ this might actually be a doable strategy because the jumps are worth so much base value (although, granted, the adult skaters usually use 6.0 at local meets, so it's probably not a very good idea there.)

I think part of Stormy's point though is that you'll be competiting against skaters with all the jumps and flying spins you like to do who ALSO have the footwork and transitions of elite skaters.

And the former elites I've met may have lost some of their highest jumps, they rarely lose their edge quality. I think they'd be tough to compete against without the same command of the ice.

[Firefly123]

Skittl,
Right now I'm just going over options. I'm not sure what I'm going to decide.

I think maybe it is easier to explain if I use spins (since you are a spinner).

You said you are a very good spinner and are even working on the flying sit. That's awesome!! Now let's say you worked really hard on that move and you have a nice high, centered flying sit, but you are not allowed to use that spin in competition until Master's level. (I understand that you can use it beneath this level, I am just trying to make a point.) You worked really, really hard on that spin and you are proud of it and you should be!! ......But, because of the limitation rule on adults, you can't use it until you land an axel and at least 2 doubles (in order to pass the Intermediate Freeskate). Jumping is hard for you. Spinning is your speciality. It is your strength that can bring you the most points....And, as a really good spinner, that would be your strategy...to use the spins to gain the points. Now, some skater who can do a Level 4 spiral or footwork sequence at your level (I know it is unlikely, but theoretically, it is possible), she is allowed to put that it....But not your spins. Not until you get those jumps and go up several levels. Sorry. Wouldn't you be a bit.....fustrated and demoralilzed? Especially if we were not only talking about one spin but 3 or 4 upper level spins you could do really well (let's say an edge change camel, a flying camel and a deathdrop), but you were not allowed to use because of the test system/adult caps. That is why I am looking at options. MITF is very hard for me. I will do it because I have to .....but if there is a way around some of it, some sort of loophole, of course I will try to take it. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is allowed.

I think part of Stormy's point though is that you'll be competiting against skaters with all the jumps and flying spins you like to do who ALSO have the footwork and transitions of elite skaters.

You are right. But at least I could use my best moves and feel like I did my best instead of having to hold my best items back while others (spinners, footwork and spiral specialists) do not.

[Stormy]

I think part of Stormy's point though is that you'll be competiting against skaters with all the jumps and flying spins you like to do who ALSO have the footwork and transitions of elite skaters.

And the former elites I've met may have lost some of their highest jumps, they rarely lose their edge quality. I think they'd be tough to compete against without the same command of the ice.

You hit the nail on the head. You could have a program with level 4 spins and spirals and still get slammed on your PCS scores. If you have weak skating skills, transitions, etc in Jr/Sr, it would be very, VERY obvious.

MITF is very hard for me. I will do it because I have to .....but if there is a way around some of it, some sort of loophole, of course I will try to take it. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is allowed.

You are right. But at least I could use my best moves and feel like I did my best instead of having to hold my best items back while others (spinners, footwork and spiral specialists) do not.

Skating up isn't a "loophole". I still say even if you hate MIF and the way USFS testing is structured, you have to play by our rules if you want to play our games. There isn't a way around it. I haven't watched your videos in a while but honestly, if you're doing double loops, flips and lutzes with correct technique, MIF shouldn't be that hard for you. I'm not sure why you hate it so much. If you truly think you're a Masters level skater, then you shouldn't be saying you'd need a wing and a prayer to pass low level moves. Those should be cake for a true Masters level skater, even a Masters Int/Novice skater.

I totally get your point about wanting to use your best elements, and it's a very valid point. But if you try to compete in Jr/Sr with only your Intermediate MIF and FS, you're at an extreme disadvantage. You're competing against people with their Senior MIF/FS and likely a bunch of dance tests too. If you just want to go out there with your best elements and see what happens, that's cool. Just make sure you have very realistic expectations of the outcome.

[Firefly123]

Stormy,

I totally get your point about wanting to use your best elements, and it's a very valid point. But if you try to compete in Jr/Sr with only your Intermediate MIF and FS, you're at an extreme disadvantage. You're competing against people with their Senior MIF/FS and likely a bunch of dance tests too. If you just want to go out there with your best elements and see what happens, that's cool. Just make sure you have very realistic expectations of the outcome.

Yup, I'd have to get as many points as possible on the jump/spin elements but concede the transition mark to the other skaters. (I understand that.)

Now, that we don't have to be contortionists, I think I can hold my own on the choreo step seq. So it would only be the preformance/transition mark that would pose the difficulty. Admittedly, under 6.0 this could be a problem, but not so much under ISJ. I may be wrong here, but I do think that under ISJ if you can manage decent jumps/spins and get credit for them, then you can pull ahead of better skaters (ie. good at "skating" skills like transitions, smooth edges etc.), who might have difficutly with level 4 spins and jump combos. I just think that is how the scoring system is set up, but I could be wrong here. Obviously, at standard Novice, Junior and Senior this is not much of an issue (unless you end up with a Bonaly), because so many skaters have the "complete package," but within the adult structure, especially at my age level (40+) and with my own set of skills, I think I could compete best in this way.....

....MIF shouldn't be that hard for you. I'm not sure why you hate it so much. If you truly think you're a Masters level skater, then you shouldn't be saying you'd need a wing and a prayer to pass low level moves. Those should be cake for a true Masters level skater, even a Masters Int/Novice skater.

I'm not sure how to explain this. Only an ex-roller or gymnast would understand. I think Kay understands, maybe she can help. The best way to explain it is to say that our edges are not your edges. While this did not hamper me on transfering the jumps/spins onto ice, it does affect a discipline that looks at nothing but "correct" edges......MITF. I still skate "roller" and probably always will. (It is a muscle memory thing like wrapping on jumps.) It really can't be "fixed." Question: Why doesn't Nakano just "fix" her wrap. (After all, most people agree it cost her several high level competitions.) Answer: Because she can't without loosing the jumps. It is too ingraned in her muscle memory. That is what I am saying... Maybe I'm not explaining it right. Do you get it?

However....

I feel really bad when everyone else goes to competitions and I am left behind at the rink. And it really bothered me this Adult Nationals...

So....

Skating up isn't a "loophole". I still say even if you hate MIF and the way USFS testing is structured, you have to play by our rules if you want to play our games. There isn't a way around it.

Yup. As much as I hate the idea, I guess I will be taking the MITF so that I can test up to Masters. Maybe "loophole" wasn't the right word.....But if I can find a way to do the lest MITF and be allowed to skate with the highest level jumps (which are my "stong point") then that would be best for me.
Skating up would be one option. ISI is another (which I've already done.) Like I said, I decided to skate USFS because (for the sake of $ and time off work issues), I need to stay in my home state (NY) or very close by (maybe PA). Skating USFS would open up a whole bunch of competitions vs. the 2 or 3 a year I could actually attend under ISI..... So onward to the Pre-Bronze MITF

[sk8er1964]

Firefly - do you have a subscription to Ice Network? You can get real good idea of adult skating under the IJS there, because they have video and the score sheets.

[southernskater]

I'm not trying to be mean, but if you got a moves coach to teach you the correct patterns with the right arm positions and intro steps it might not be as challenging for you as you think. I don't know exactly what is on the adult track tests since I tested standard, but if you just do a few moves lessons with a coach it won't be too hard. I have looked at the patterns and watched people on YouTube and in practice, but when I showed my coach some of the pre- juv moves patterns I was working on (that she had showed me in that past) there were some problems with my arms and shoulders that she had to fix. Also your edges will improve and your jumps will get much better. I know lessons are expensive, but you will improve much faster

[Skittl1321]

So onward to the Pre-Bronze MITF

Oh come on- you're being ridiculously dramatic here. I can understand being worried about Intermediate MITF, or maybe even Gold- but Pre-Bronze?

If you can do a double jump, you can pass pre-bronze. The edge quality needed there is non-existant. Want proof- my pre-bronze test is on youtube. Go to youtube and serach my user name (or the link is in my signature on skating forums).

The patterns do need to be what the rulebook says- but the 3 turns don't have to be exactly on the top of the lobe like they will need to be later. Same with the waltz-8, it needs to be reasonly close to the pattern in the book- but this is an encouragement test.

[Firefly123]

Skittl,

If you can do a double jump, you can pass pre-bronze. The edge quality needed there is non-existant.

OK.......Bronze MITF,then.

Oh! I finally figured out how to explain the edge thing it so it makes sense. It is almost exactly like speaking a foreign language.

Since I didn't start on ice I learned roller edges. (It is like growning up in Japan and speaking ONLY Japanese until you are 15. No English language contact at all).....Yes, I know foreign cultures learn languages early. It's just an example, bear with me.

Then this individual moves to the US were he/she must use English. There is the problem. The Japanese speaker can learn the English language.... But for many non-native speakers it is difficult to think in English. They will think in their native language and then very quickly translate what they want to say into English so they can speak. That is exactly how it is for me on ice!!!! Totally. Exactly. Bingo!!

Now some foreign speakers with a lot of natural talent and/or people who have used English the longest may start to think in English instead of their native language.....But for some who aren't so gifted, well, they just continue to think in Japanese and quickly translate (especially for difficult concepts). That is why MITF is so hard for me. I can translate the jumps/spins much more easily than I can the MITF. (Probalby because I can "fix" a problem on those items by quickly adjusting my bodyweight to "save" the item if necessary vs MITF where I bad step is, well......a bad step. )

I know many posters on this forum speak/read/write several languages. Do you know what I mean? Do you agree?

I'm not saying that with a lot of effort the MITF can't be done. (They can)......But with a lot more effort than most people would suppose for a skater capable of deathdrops and 2flips.....

[Skittl1321]

OK.......Bronze MITF,then.

Fine, I'll give you this one.

But the pre-bronze is going to be like learning to count to 10 in anothe language- I can do that in like 5 or 6 of them. No one is saying MITF are going to be easy. I've had to change habits from dance for skating, but I was never great at dancing, and I'm not really good at skating so it hasn't been too difficult. My biggest difficulties have been chronic injuries.

Having been great at roller- it will definetly be a challenge. But the whole sport is supposed to be a challenge.

[Firefly123]

But the pre-bronze is going to be like learning to count to 10 in anothe language- I can do that in like 5 or 6 of them.

I'm ok until you get to conjugating verbs. Is that Silver?

[gkelly]

Yeah, more or less.

You shouldn't have any trouble with the prebronze or bronze moves as long as you take the time to understand the patterns correctly.

If you're not used to doing forward threes and mohawks clockwise, you'll need to practice them. But it's not that hard and the standards aren't that strict at those levels.

There should be no reason why you couldn't pass those tests within a month or two of learning how to do the moves correctly -- you already have enough power and probably don't get caught on your toepicks as much as some tentative adult beginners.

Silver may take you several months or even up to a year, depending whether you could already do back threes and outside mohawks on rollers, whether you bother to play with them on ice outside the context of the moves, and how much time you put into practicing them and checking your technique with a coach.

I really think it will be more cost efficient for you to have at least half an hour of lesson every month or every two weeks while you're working on the silver and higher MITF than to try to learn them all on your own. It'll take more months to unlearn bad habits than to learn skills and patterns correctly in the first place, and it will be a waste of money to sign up for a test and not pass it because you taught yourself something incorrectly.

[Firefly123]

I really think it will be more cost efficient for you to have at least half an hour of lesson every month or every two weeks while you're working on the silver and higher MITF than to try to learn them all on your own. It'll take more months to unlearn bad habits than to learn skills and patterns correctly in the first place, and it will be a waste of money to sign up for a test and not pass it because you taught yourself something incorrectly.

Expensive and horribly discouraging....

Yes, as much as I do dislike the whole coach idea, I will definitely have to see one....Kind of like a dentist....

Ok, for the sake of understanding the "skate up" rule:

Assuming I did pass Intermediate....

1. I could not use "skate up" rule to skate Masters Junior/Senior because even though the divisions are combined I am technically skipping two levels (not one) because I am only an Intermediate not a Novice.

2. However, this might be a moot point since at many local competitions all of the masters are thrown into one event together anyways.

3. A little confusion here..... If I am in a local event where all the Masters level skaters are grouped together, then even though I am an Intermediate level I should be allowed to use any jump/spin and I should be able to use a longer program because, otherwise the Masters Junior/Senior skaters have an unfair advantage from the get go (more skating time, one more spin element, no cap on jumps.) So I would think I could "upgrade" my program accordingly. I thought I read this might be up to an official's decision, but there should be no question about this. Without allowing the lower level Masters skaters (Intermediate/Novice) to "upgrade" they are put at a severe disadvantage in the first place. Like I said, this one has me confused.

4. You cannot use the "skate up" rule in qualifying competitions (sectionals, nats), only in local competitions that state you can on the announcement.

Right????

[sk8er1964]

1. I could not use "skate up" rule to skate Masters Junior/Senior because even though the divisions are combined I am technically skipping two levels (not one) because I am only an Intermediate not a Novice.

Correct

2. However, this might be a moot point since at many local competitions all of the masters are thrown into one event together anyways.

Correct.

3. A little confusion here..... If I am in a local event where all the Masters level skaters are grouped together, then even though I am an Intermediate level I should be allowed to use any jump/spin and I should be able to use a longer program because, otherwise the Masters Junior/Senior skaters have an unfair advantage from the get go (more skating time, one more spin element, no cap on jumps.) So I would think I could "upgrade" my program accordingly. I thought I read this might be up to a official's decision, but there should be no question about this. Without allowing the lower level Masters skaters (Intermediate/Novice) to "upgrade" they are put at a severe disadvantage in the first place. Like I said, this one has me confused.

Depends on what the announcement says. It is up to the referee to decide.

4. You cannot use the "skate up" rule in qualifying competitions (sectionals, nats), only in local competitions that state you can on the announcement.

Correct

[Skittl1321]

3. A little confusion here..... If I am in a local event where all the Masters level skaters are grouped together, then even though I am an Intermediate level I should be allowed to use any jump/spin and I should be able to use a longer program because, otherwise the Masters Junior/Senior skaters have an unfair advantage from the get go (more skating time, one more spin element, no cap on jumps.) So I would think I could "upgrade" my program accordingly. I thought I read this might be up to a official's decision, but there should be no question about this. Without allowing the lower level Masters skaters (Intermediate/Novice) to "upgrade" they are put at a severe disadvantage in the first place. Like I said, this one has me confused.

This confusion might be based on what I said about combined levels at my local comeptitions. We never know the levels are combined into "adult" until we get there- hence everyone having different program lengths.

If the announcement has the levels combined from entering the competition the information about the program length and element restrictions should be in the competition announcement.

[Firefly123]

Are all the Masters ever "lumped" together? (Intermediate/Novice/Junior/Senior).

If so, how could any official "defend" letting the Juniors/Seniors have:
1. A longer program
2. No jump limitation
3. One more spin element

I would think this sets up an "unfair" playing field from the get go????

I must have mistunderstood something here.......

[sk8er1964]

Firefly, you have to understand something about local competitions, ie non-adult competitions. Usually there's one or two adults at each level. Quite often you're the only one at your level, because the higher you go the fewer there are of you. Some locals don't even offer adult events. I'm in an area that is pretty darn big for skating, and I can count on one hand the number of ladies competing at gold. Ditto for the masters intermediate/novice level, and again for the masters jr/senior level.

Bottom line, you can't go to a local for the medal/official results. You go for the enjoyment of competing, or to prepare yourself for a bigger competition.

All adult competitons are differrent. There you would most likely be broken up by level because there's usually more people skating at that level.

[Firefly123]

Ok. So it is because there are a very small number of adults then......oh.....Still seems unfair, sort of, I mean in theory....but, as you said, in practice it is probably a moot point given the small number of skaters it affects....

[gkelly]

If there were sufficient numbers of adults who wanted to do more double jumps with intermediate-level skating skills, there would be a category for that.

The number of adults who do doubles is small. The number who didn't also learn good basic skating skills along the way is much smaller.

[Firefly123]

The number of adults who do doubles is small. The number who didn't also learn good basic skating skills along the way is much smaller

One.

Acually, I think I found 4 last time.....No, still not enough for an actual catagory....