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  1. #221
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    Does the new 1/2 loop "combination" get the new 10% combo bonus, or does it just not get the 20% sequence penalty?
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Does the new 1/2 loop "combination" get the new 10% combo bonus, or does it just not get the 20% sequence penalty?
    Gets the 10% combo bonus

  3. #223
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    The issue regarding 3-3 and 3-1Lo-3S seems to be whether or not the reward of doing a more difficult jump justifies the risk of it.

    A skater may do, for instance,

    1) 3S-3T and 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo for 18.7 in total value including the 10% bonus or
    2) 3T-1Lo-3S and 3Lo-2Lo for 17.27 including the 10% bonus

    In general, it is more difficult to do 3S-3T than 3T-1Lo-3S. 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo is naturally more so than 3Lo-2Lo. Yet, the advantage of doing the tougher jumps is 1.43 pts.

    It is a matter of opinion if or not the point difference is justifiable. But, if you ask me, 1.43 pts certainly do not justfy the risk or the level of difficulty.
    Last edited by key65man; 05-17-2010 at 02:47 AM.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    It is a matter of opinion if or not the point difference is justifiable. But, if you ask me, 1.43 pts certainly do not justfy the risk or the level of difficulty.
    But skaters have been doing 3+2+2 combos even before the bonus, when they were worth less, so obviously it is worth the risk. A lot of skaters -- even ones who can't land any triples (those at the US juvenile or intermediate level) -- can land a something+2+2 pretty solidly.

    I think you're also underestimating the difficulty of doing a triple sal off of a half loop. Half loop sequences aren't like other sequences because you don't have a chance to gain speed or fix yourself (say, if you're a little over-rotated on the landing of the first jump) before you need to do the next jump.

  5. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Choreograhers are going to have a heck of a time this summer, as they create new programs for skaters using these confounding new rules.
    Don't they always?
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    But skaters have been doing 3+2+2 combos even before the bonus, when they were worth less, so obviously it is worth the risk. A lot of skaters -- even ones who can't land any triples (those at the US juvenile or intermediate level) -- can land a something+2+2 pretty solidly.

    I think you're also underestimating the difficulty of doing a triple sal off of a half loop. Half loop sequences aren't like other sequences because you don't have a chance to gain speed or fix yourself (say, if you're a little over-rotated on the landing of the first jump) before you need to do the next jump.
    First of all, I am not saying 3-1Lo-3S is easy. But, it is not as difficult as 3-3 in general.

    Secondly, I agree that people have been doing 3-2-2. But, it is axiomatically tougher than 3-2 made up with the same jumps. I agree that it is not difficult to add a 2Lo as a third jump. But, it is not done without adding more difficulty and risk though only in some small degree.

    The set of 3T-3S and 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo in general is more difficult with the higher risk than the alternative set of 3T-1Lo-3S and 3Lo-2Lo.

    And, I believe that 1.43 pts do not account for the higher level of difficulty and the higher risk. We may see it differently, however.
    Last edited by key65man; 05-17-2010 at 04:04 AM.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    The set of 3T-3S and 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo in general is more difficult with the higher risk than the alternative set of 3T-1Lo-3S and 3Lo-2Lo. And, I do not believe that 1.43 pts do not account for the higher level of difficulty and the higher risk.
    But you can have this argument about a billion different elements in COP. Are 0.2 points enough to seperate a 3flip from a 3loop? how about the difference between level 2 and level 3 footwork and spins? It's all relative.

    I think a 3-3 sequence is easier than a 3-1/2-3 combo, and I'm glad this is getting recognized. I also think a 3-1/2-3 combo is easier that a 3-3 combo, and I'm glad this is getting recognized. are 1.43 points enough? Who's to say, but skaters should work on maximizing their points potential, so instead or a 3loop-2lo-2lo they can do a 3lz-2lo-2lo and the points difference would be more than 1.43. I also think if 1/2 loops 3sals and 1/2 loops 3flips were managable by many skaters, we would've seen it more often (especially under the 6.0 system)

    Food for thought: should a 3-3-2 be worth as much as a 3-2-3?

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    But you can have this argument about a billion different elements in COP. Are 0.2 points enough to seperate a 3flip from a 3loop? how about the difference between level 2 and level 3 footwork and spins? It's all relative.

    I think a 3-3 sequence is easier than a 3-1/2-3 combo, and I'm glad this is getting recognized. I also think a 3-1/2-3 combo is easier that a 3-3 combo, and I'm glad this is getting recognized. are 1.43 points enough? Who's to say, but skaters should work on maximizing their points potential, so instead or a 3loop-2lo-2lo they can do a 3lz-2lo-2lo and the points difference would be more than 1.43. I also think if 1/2 loops 3sals and 1/2 loops 3flips were managable by many skaters, we would've seen it more often (especially under the 6.0 system)

    Food for thought: should a 3-3-2 be worth as much as a 3-2-3?
    I think there is something wrong with how they value 3F and 3Lo. But, that is a separate issue. The same goes with 3-3-2 and 3-2-3, I think.

    Even if you do the calculation using 3Lz-2Lo-2Lo instead of 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo, the point difference is same as demonstrated below.

    1) 3S-3T and 3Lz-2Lo-2Lo = 18.59
    2) 3T-1Lo-3S and 3Lz-2Lo = 17.16 all accounting for the 10% bonus

    I am not saying 3-1Lo-3S is easy. It is difficult. If you believe they are as difficult as 3-3, then I am fine with that. But, it is not generally recognized so, which is why it did not receive the full value before.

    I am not arguing that we should not give 3-1Lo-3S its full value. I actually think it deserves the full value. However, I believe the 10% bonus is an over-kill. If you don't agree, I am fine with that, as well.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    I am not arguing that we should not give 3-1Lo-3S its full value. I actually think it deserves the full value. However, I believe the 10% bonus is an over-kill. If you don't agree, I am fine with that, as well.
    Oh, I see. So what would the point difference be in that case? (Sorry, I know how lazy I must seem : )

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Oh, I see. So what would the point difference be in that case? (Sorry, I know how lazy I must seem : )
    Although I would like the value of 3-1Lo-3S to be a bit less, it would be impossible to achieve it without affecting the full value. So, I have been arguing against the 10% bonus. I am sure you know the calculation, just 0.78 knocked off the 3T-1Lo-3S.

    I am sorry if I gave you an wrong impression or offended you some way.

  11. #231
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    What if the 10% bonus would only be added to the second and third jumps in a combo? Would that reward the harder combos or deter Lutz and/or flip 3-3's?

  12. #232

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    I think they should:

    Give 1.1 bonus to combinations
    straight base value to jump-1/2loop-jump series
    80% of base value for jump, step, jump
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  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarotx View Post
    What if the 10% bonus would only be added to the second and third jumps in a combo? Would that reward the harder combos or deter Lutz and/or flip 3-3's?
    I think that's what they should do, but there needs to be some reward for the first jump as well (a 3lz-3toe is much harder than a 3sal-3toe) Maybe 10% of the 1st jump and 20% of the second & third jumps could be added to the total of the combo)

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I think they should:

    Give 1.1 bonus to combinations
    straight base value to jump-1/2loop-jump series
    80% of base value for jump, step, jump
    OK, then what do you think they should give for these combinations?:
    triple jump+single toeloop+triple jump
    triple jump + single loop (landed on regular landing foot) + triple jump?

    There's no "half loop" so would they get the +10%?

  15. #235
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    Question on 10% increase for Combos

    I have looked at ISU 1611, and don't see ref to the 10% increase for combo's. Is this something being kicked around or actually integrated into the rules. If so, where can I refference it?

  16. #236
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    Right now the only published reference I see to the 1.1 jump combination bonus is Proposal #183 in ISU Comm. 1609 (Congress Agenda).
    So, I have no idea if it passed or not because the ISU has yet to publish the 2010 Rules on their website.

    You may have better luck talking to someone who attended the ISU Congress and can let you know directly.

    And if you find out, please let others know.
    Last edited by HisWeirness; 07-19-2010 at 03:16 PM.

  17. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikiAndoFan#1 View Post
    Wow, so many changes. What's the difference between choreo steps and step sequence?

    I bet that Choreo Steps is intended to bring back the zippy step sequences that we used to love from skaters like Browning, Hamilton & Sato. If that is so, then BRAVO!!!
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  18. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    I bet that Choreo Steps is intended to bring back the zippy step sequences that we used to love from skaters like Browning, Hamilton & Sato. If that is so, then BRAVO!!!

    ITA!! Only a handful of skaters could make those long drawn out step sequences even remotely interesting.

  19. #239

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    "Choreo steps" replaces the second step sequence in the men's free skate. "Choreo spirals" replaces the spiral sequence in the ladies' free skate. These elements cannot go higher than level one, but they are assigned GOEs so can have considerable value. The step sequences we saw at Liberty mostly seemed to be a bit shorter than a full sequence, though the rules indicate that the choreo steps are supposed to use the full length or width of the ice.

    Incidentally, a skating mom told me that a further change in the spin rules is expected. We didn't get into details, but I gather that one or more of the new restrictions would be loosened. I looked on the ISU web site yesterday but couldn't find anything there yet. Even if the new changes are really good ones, it's beyond late to be changing things like this.

  20. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    OK, then what do you think they should give for these combinations?:
    triple jump+single toeloop+triple jump
    triple jump + single loop (landed on regular landing foot) + triple jump?

    There's no "half loop" so would they get the +10%?
    Sorry - never saw this! I think if there is at least one full rotation to a jump (takeoff and landing on same foot), it should be eligible for the .1 bonus on jump combinations.

    I hope the proposed rule goes through.
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