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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    The age for girls was 18, how would this have effected Meryl?
    The proposed rule says skaters "may not have reached" 18 before the July 1 before the season, so Meryl would have been ineligible for the 05-06 JGP or JW if the proposed rule had been in place (which I think is what reckless is talking about). They would likely not have gotten SGP's in 05-06 and may not have gotten any in the fall of 06 - they might have qualified for an invite to SA. Would they have finished 7th at their first Worlds with almost no int'l credentials - maybe, or maybe not.

    If the Shibs had to compete Senior this past year, they would have definitely gotten 1 GP, b/c of their medal at JW the year before. Perhaps the 2 assignments that went to the Hubbells this year would have effectively had to be split between the 2 teams, so they might have each had only 1. It's hard to say where they would have finished at Nats - I'm guessing below C/Z and the Hubbells, maybe ahead of S/G? But they would have been ineligible for 4CC b/c Maia was too young (not 15 before July 1).

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    The age for girls was 18, how would this have effected Meryl? And their success had more to do with a coaching change than age.

    The other teams you mention had success long before they would have aged out.
    I don't know why Davis/White were eligible for 2006 Junior Worlds. Meryl turned 18 on January 1, 2005 according to her ISU bio (her birthdate is listed as 1/1/87).

    As for the other teams I mentioned, what are you talking about? Domnina/Shabalin had no success whatsoever before they would have aged out. Max turned 18 in 2000, two years before they teamed up and three years before they won junior worlds. What success did they have before they would have aged out? Even with prior partners, Domnina's top junior worlds result was 7th and Max's was 2nd -- in a year he would have been ineligible due to age.

    Chock/Zeurlein teamed up after he would have aged out. Neither had success with other partners. Madison had won a pewter medal at US Nats with a prior partner.

    At the time they would have aged out, Belbin/Agosto would have been the top US junior team, with a single win in an JGP event. Delobel/Schoenfelder would have been the top French junior team when they aged out. Now maybe the change wouldn't have been as significant for these teams because they began doing the GP events (though continued to do Junior Worlds) the years they would have aged out.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless View Post
    I don't know why Davis/White were eligible for 2006 Junior Worlds. Meryl turned 18 on January 1, 2005 according to her ISU bio (her birthdate is listed as 1/1/87).
    So she was 18 as of July 1, 2005. The rule then and now was that she had to be not yet 19 as of July 1.

    If the rule had been what's now being proposed, lowered to not yet 18, she wouldn't have been eligible.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless View Post
    I don't know why Davis/White were eligible for 2006 Junior Worlds. Meryl turned 18 on January 1, 2005 according to her ISU bio (her birthdate is listed as 1/1/87).
    The current rule for girls is that they have to be under 19 as of the preceding July 1, so Meryl was eligible b/c she was only 18 on the cutoff date. Under what is being proposed, she wouldn't have been, b/c all skaters would need to be under 18 by the cutoff date.

  5. #85

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    It's hard to predict who will be added to the JGP or JW team this year, so I used the current list of dance teams who competed at either. Of those skaters who have not split or aged out already this season:


    Current age rule (unchanged) = 32 eligible teams for 2011/2012
    Russian age rule proposal = 8 eligible teams for 2011/2012
    ISU age rule proposal = 3 eligible teams for 2011/2012 (FRA, POL, RUS)


    Of the 60 teams that I used, the average age difference within the teams is just under under 2 years. 9 teams out of 60 were the same age.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless View Post
    I don't know why Davis/White were eligible for 2006 Junior Worlds. Meryl turned 18 on January 1, 2005 according to her ISU bio (her birthdate is listed as 1/1/87).

    As for the other teams I mentioned, what are you talking about? Domnina/Shabalin had no success whatsoever before they would have aged out. Max turned 18 in 2000, two years before they teamed up and three years before they won junior worlds. What success did they have before they would have aged out? Even with prior partners, Domnina's top junior worlds result was 7th and Max's was 2nd -- in a year he would have been ineligible due to age.

    Chock/Zeurlein teamed up after he would have aged out. Neither had success with other partners. Madison had won a pewter medal at US Nats with a prior partner.

    At the time they would have aged out, Belbin/Agosto would have been the top US junior team, with a single win in an JGP event. Delobel/Schoenfelder would have been the top French junior team when they aged out. Now maybe the change wouldn't have been as significant for these teams because they began doing the GP events (though continued to do Junior Worlds) the years they would have aged out.
    The point is there has to be a cut off. Why not make it 21 for girls, 24 for boys? There will always be some team that ages out. There will always be break-ups and skaters who are too old to start over with another partner in Junior, why should that stop them? Maybe if D/S had started senior, they'd have progressed faster. Who knows if winning Jr. Worlds did much for them. Just like there will always be a singles skater who ages out. I think Junior should be a little lower. At 21 the boys are men and should ready for senior.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    The point is there has to be a cut off. Why not make it 21 for girls, 24 for boys? There will always be some team that ages out. There will always be break-ups and skaters who are too old to start over with another partner in Junior, why should that stop them? Maybe if D/S had started senior, they'd have progressed faster. Who knows if winning Jr. Worlds did much for them. Just like there will always be a singles skater who ages out. I think Junior should be a little lower. At 21 the boys are men and should ready for senior.
    No, the point is that there is already a cut-off. These teams that are already together have known about that cut-off, perhaps for years, and have planned their careers accordingly. Now the ISU is pulling the rug out from under these skaters, and many are not ready to compete senior internationally, and many will be likely to leave the sport.

    I don't think there is a magical occurence that happens to boys to turn them into Seniors at 21...
    Last edited by Bogie; 05-06-2010 at 11:40 PM.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    At 21 the boys are men and should ready for senior.
    I would love to hear the opinion of someone in the medical field, regarding how the average 21 year old team athlete compares physiologically to a 23 or 24 year old team athete. Are they comporable or is there still a degree of growth going on? Is it simply a cop-out that so many men in pairs, aged 21 and under are choosing to partner with younger girls, or is there really a physical reason why they can't lift more mature girls who have weight distribution in different places? Someone with sons of their own, probably would lean towards a physical difference, just wondering if there is medical research that's been done, or if it's just seeing the differences with our own eyes.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammi View Post
    I would love to hear the opinion of someone in the medical field, regarding how the average 21 year old team athlete compares physiologically to a 23 or 24 year old team athete. Are they comporable or is there still a degree of growth going on? Is it simply a cop-out that so many men in pairs, aged 21 and under are choosing to partner with younger girls, or is there really a physical reason why they can't lift more mature girls who have weight distribution in different places? Someone with sons of their own, probably would lean towards a physical difference, just wondering if there is medical research that's been done, or if it's just seeing the differences with our own eyes.
    Not a medical expert, but football is a very good example where the collective bargaining agreement tries to limit young athletes. They don't draw the difference between 21 and 23 year olds, but do between 18 and 21. Under the terms of the agreement, a player may not turn pro until at least three years after his high school graduation year. Since most players are 18 when they graduate, that means the early departures from college tend to be 21 before they play as pros. (There are a few exceptions where a player has graduated high school at 16 or 17, but generally this is the rule.) Both the NFL and the NFL Players Association have accepted this rule because they do not believe younger players are physically up to the rigors of football.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogie View Post
    I don't think there is a magical occurence that happens to boys to turn them into Seniors at 21...
    At 21 boys are no longer boys, they are men. Should they really be competing against 13 year olds?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    At 21 boys are no longer boys, they are men. Should they really be competing against 13 year olds?
    Should 13-year-old boys be doing complicated lifts, throws, and twists?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  12. #92
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    Seriously. How many 13 year old boys are even doing Junior Pairs? That's too young. They are still little at that age.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Should 13-year-old boys be doing complicated lifts, throws, and twists?
    Should 13 year old girls?

  14. #94

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    Of the 39 Junior pairs that competed on the JGP or at Jr. Worlds this past season (I accidently counted one team twice in my initial calculations earlier), the age of the male partners as of July 1, 2009 were as follows:
    13 years old: 0
    14: 0
    15: 1 (CHN)
    16: 3 (2 CHN, 1 GER)
    17: 7
    18: 13
    19: 6
    20: 9

    Female pair skater's ages as of July 1, 2009:
    13: 9
    14: 11
    15: 6
    16: 8
    17: 4
    18: 1
    Last edited by Sylvia; 05-07-2010 at 01:01 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Should 13 year old girls?
    If they have the strength to hold the landings and the abdominal strength to hold their bodies in lifts so that the boy is not doing a dead lift, I don't see why not. However, boys' shoulders, which are critical for lifts and throws, are not fully developed until their early to mid-20's.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Of the 39 Junior pairs that competed on the JGP or at Jr. Worlds this past season (I accidently counted one team twice in my initial calculations earlier), the age of the male partners as of July 1, 2009 were as follows:
    13 years old: 0
    14: 0
    15: 1 (CHN)
    16: 3 (2 CHN, 1 GER)
    17: 7
    18: 13
    19: 6
    20: 9

    Female pair skater's ages as of July 1, 2009:
    13: 9
    14: 11
    15: 6
    16: 8
    17: 4
    18: 1
    Now this is interesting data. Clearly the majority of jr pairs boys were in the 18-21 bracket. There is a reason for this. In order for these boys to safely lift and throw their partners they need the strength and size that comes with physical maturity.

    If you look at the ages of the OG winners the last few cycles, all were in their late 20's (or early 30's). Clearly this sport requires more maturity for the men to be successful and more time to develop at the jr level would be of benefit, not less as is being proposed.

    This data also goes a long way to dispel the argument that it would be unfair to keep the age limit at 21 because a 13 year old boy shouldn't have to compete against a 21 year old boy. There are next to no 13 year old boys in jr and that's because they are not strong enough to be there yet!

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by yfbg722 View Post

    This data also goes a long way to dispel the argument that it would be unfair to keep the age limit at 21 because a 13 year old boy shouldn't have to compete against a 21 year old boy. There are next to no 13 year old boys in jr and that's because they are not strong enough to be there yet!
    Rather, there are next-to-no 13 or 14 y.o. boys in junior pairs because they're uncompetitive when compared to 20 or 21 y.o. men. If the proposal goes through, then I would expect to see quite a few 14 - 18 y.o. boys in junior pairs because countries won't be able to send age-inappropriate pairs. I would agree that the complexity of the elements that will be handled by a younger cohort will probably be lower than what we see now, but I don't see that as a problem.

    And given the relative paucity of senior pairs, a number of teams will probably compete senior earlier than they would have otherwise done so, and again, I don't see that as being a problem. Perhaps we'd get enough to have the ISU have pairs competitions at all the GP events once again.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Why not make it 21 for girls, 24 for boys?
    Why not make it 72 for girls and 138 for the boys?

    Just don't change it. Leave it as it is. It is fine.

    And if you have issues relating to teenage delinquency, sexual abuse, parenting and what not, maybe you should seek professional advice instead of derailing this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    I hate to be harsh, but unless your team is one of the top ones getting the GP's, how far do you expect them to go?
    You do realise this statement means the vast majority of competetive skaters should just retire and not bother?
    Last edited by Ziggy; 05-07-2010 at 03:06 AM.

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Rather, there are next-to-no 13 or 14 y.o. boys in junior pairs because they're uncompetitive when compared to 20 or 21 y.o. men. If the proposal goes through, then I would expect to see quite a few 14 - 18 y.o. boys in junior pairs because countries won't be able to send age-inappropriate pairs. I would agree that the complexity of the elements that will be handled by a younger cohort will probably be lower than what we see now, but I don't see that as a problem.

    And given the relative paucity of senior pairs, a number of teams will probably compete senior earlier than they would have otherwise done so, and again, I don't see that as being a problem. Perhaps we'd get enough to have the ISU have pairs competitions at all the GP events once again.
    Except why is it fair to have 18-year old boys with 15-year old girl partners competing seniors who are 10+ years older? By collapsing the eligibility period for juniors, you are pushing more skaters into senior competition whey they clearely are not going to be ready physically for it. Do we need more senior pairs who cannot complete triple jumps or throw triple twists? And how are those young teams going to be able to get good national and international results if they cannot do anywhere close to the degree of difficulty in lifts and throws?

    And what about funding? Where are the new senior teams going to get funding when they are buried in the national and international ranks while they wait for the guy to get enough strength to become competitive with the top teams? How many of those teams are going to look at their options at age 18 and think, "hmmm, I could go to college now or I could struggle for 4 years without funding and then, maybe, Joe will have gotten strong enough that we can get some results."

  20. #100

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    I don't have it as detailed for dance as Sylvia posted for pairs, but the data seems to suggest the same thing. For the dance teams I looked up, 50 of them had a male partner between the ages of 18-20. As compared to 27 teams with a male partner between the ages of 14-17.

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