Concern for the Future Development of Pairs & Dance (ISU's proposed JR age limits)

[Ziggy]

Kids are not in that sort of situation at home, at least none that I know.

Uhmmm... how to break it to you.

It's called:

- school
- parties
- internet
- neighbourhood
- siblings' friends
- family's friends
- etc.

If the respective coaches and team leaders are not supervising adequately, it is a sport issue. When athletes are up on a roof getting drunk and one falls off, we'll see what happens. The younger kids can get out of control. They are away from parents, etc. often for the first time, and are not watched 24/7.

Again: That is not the responsibility of the ISU. It's the responsibility of the respective young skaters' coaches and team leaders. So take your issues there.

P.S. You're coming off as a crazy evangelical mum who home schools all her kids.

[cruisin]

Uhmmm... how to break it to you.

It's called:

- school
- parties
- internet
- neighbourhood
- siblings' friends
- family's friends
- etc.



Again: That is not the responsibility of the ISU. It's the responsibility of the respective young skaters' coaches and team leaders. So take your issues there.

P.S. You're coming off as a crazy evangelical mum who home schools all her kids.

Um, reaching a bit?

Don't home school, don't believe in it. I strongly believe that kids should go to school. Especially, elite athletes, since that is probably the only place they will meet kids their own age who have other interests. My kids went to public schools and socialized normally, as normally as kids can socialize in an activity packed world. There were parties, but parents made themselves aware of whether or not adults would be home. You cannot compare the freedom and the situations that occur at JGPs with kids hanging out in their own neighborhoods. The amount of drinking is staggering (yes, including the 13 year olds), even to a mother whose kids drank themselves silly in college. My kids were hardly overprotected. Though I will admit that when my son did a semester in Florence it was hard to find a basement or an attic to keep him imprisoned in .

[yfbg722]

Oh for the love of god...

The "seperate young girls from older boys or they will get sexually abused" stuff is just .

ITA! These older boys are not going to be interested in a 13 year old and in most cases the young girl will have either a parent, coach, or team leader looking out for her.

[yfbg722]

Kids are not in that sort of situation at home, at least none that I know.



Yeah, that's it

To some degree it is a supervision issue. To some degree it is putting kids, who are not ready to be exposed to serious partying, in that situation. As I said, it is not a reason to raise the age restrictions, but it is a problem. If the respective coaches and team leaders are not supervising adequately, it is a sport issue. When athletes are up on a roof getting drunk and one falls off, we'll see what happens. The younger kids can get out of control. They are away from parents, etc. often for the first time, and are not watched 24/7.

The issue of a young girl partying could happen anywhere! Many skaters are sent away from home to train and there is often "partying" going on in their everyday worlds. Should we next ban skaters from training away from home because they won't be adequately supervised and may party?

This is a parenting issue, not a reason to change the age limits at the junior level for ISU competitions!

[cruisin]

not a reason to change the age limits at the junior level for ISU competitions!

How many times did I say that? I swear, sometimes people don't fully read these posts.

But, it's not a simple parenting issue. If you have a skater in pairs or dance who has to move for a partner, you have to make tough choices. Do you just say no? Do you uproot the whole family? What about jobs? Does Mom move with them and leave other children home without her being there for them? Do you send them to live with a partner, a coach, a family you don't know? I know of several girls, who were in situations where they moved away from home alone. Some of them did not fare well. I really can't say more than that.

[reckless]

What could work in making the age limits tighter for Novice and Junior, is making restrictions on elements. Especially in pairs. If 14-18 year old boys are not allowed to do elements that could hurt them with a close in age partner, they would have more time to develop. But the age issue makes no sense, unless they address the elements allowed at certain levels. In having a 14-21 year spread, it forces the kids on the younger end to do these elements in order to keep up. It also pushes, as you say, the gorilla-flea combinations. Either way, there is a lot of pressure on these young girls to remain tiny. For some, that is an injury (illness) all by itself.

I don't get your point. There would be more pressure on young girls to remain tiny if their partners are smaller, which is more likely to occur if the boys are closer in age. You may not have as many gorillas, but you would have even more fleas.

As for restricting elements, it wouldn't work for myriad reasons. First, it would effectively cap junior teams in competition, resulting in most teams doing the same elements.

Second, restricting elements would retard development so those teams would not be ready to compete as seniors. You would have teams scrambling to make up the elements that top senior teams are already doing. How many years would those teams be playing catch-up -- and how many of those teams will give up in the process? Or, alternatively, the junior teams would practice those elements but not do them in competition, which would make restricting elements utterly ineffective.

[MacMadame]

I forgot about that -- was there some enormous problem with junior pairs when that rule was in effect?

There was a problem with not having enough pairs and the development of the sport. IMO, anyway.

if the ISU is willing to sacrifice pair development for a silly Youth Olympics, it shows there isn't a whole lot of knowledge of how pair teams develop.

People keep saying "the ISU" as if this proposal came from the ISU. Proposals come from NGBs. Some of them are quite whacky and have no chance of passing. Some of them have widespread support. The question is: where does this proposal fall? I suspect it's not going to pass. Every country has one vote and, as has been pointed out, this will hurt the smaller countries disproportionately and they will all vote "no". There are a lot of them and they can bring down the proposal even if the larger countries support it (which I don't think they do).

Would it be possible for them to keep the 18/21 age cutoffs but then say no more than 3 years (or whatever) between partners ages if they wanted to prevent excessive age gaps?

The ISU is not as concerned with large age differences as some fans are.

Of course, that makes little sense because nearly any team aged-out of juniors is almost certainly going to be eligible for senior competition.

Not necessarily. There are enough teams where the guy is too old for Juniors and the girl is too young for Seniors. The new categories might let them compete in some smaller Senior B events.

The problem with that argument is that the same could happen just from hanging out at a rink without parental supervision.

The other problem is that it assumes that the ideal situation is to keep kids in age ghettos where they supposedly won't be subject to "inappropriate" influences. That's a value judgement, not a fact. Personally, I send my kids to a private school where there are no grades and 5 year olds and 18 year olds are free to interact. So obviously this is not a value judgment that I share.

[Sylvia]

People keep saying "the ISU" as if this proposal came from the ISU. Proposals come from NGBs.

This particular age rule change proposal comes directly from the ISU Council (AFAIK, it's the same one from two years ago that did not make it to the 2008 ISU Congress vote). As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Russian federation has their own Junior age rule proposal that includes cutting 2 years from the maximum age limit for male pair/dancers (to 19 before July 1st) rather than the ISU Council's 3 years (the ISU Council already has stated they are not in favor of the Russian fed's proposal).

[skatefan]

From ISU Communication 1561 (May 2009)

5. Winter Youth Olympic Games 2012, Innsbruck
As announced in ISU Communication 1550, the first winter edition of the Youth Olympic Games will be held in Innsbruck/Austria on January 13-22, 2012.
The applicable program including disciplines, qualifying systems, entry quotas, competition formats and age limits are under preparation in cooperation with the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and will be released in due time.
The tentative age limits, subject to final confirmation, for the ISU disciplines will be as follows:
- For all ISU disciplines: Skaters born between January 1, 1996 and December 31, 1997, i.e. 15-16 years old;
- For male skaters in Pair Skating and Ice Dance: born between January 1 1994 and December 31, 1997, i.e. 15-18 years old.

It appears from the Communication that the ISU will be following the IOC's age-related criteria for all athletes, in that it will be age as at 31st December which will apply, rather than age on the 1st July preceding the event which ISU events use. So, does this mean that pair/dance males who have reached the proposed 'not age 18 on 1st July' ISU rule and who would therefore be ineligible for ISU events, are still eligible for the Youth Olympic events?

[jlai]

WIth the way ice dancing is stealing pair spins, if we'll be seeing less of that in pairs, I honestly don't know what pairs skating is about any more.

[yfbg722]

How many times did I say that? I swear, sometimes people don't fully read these posts.

But, it's not a simple parenting issue. If you have a skater in pairs or dance who has to move for a partner, you have to make tough choices. Do you just say no? Do you uproot the whole family? What about jobs? Does Mom move with them and leave other children home without her being there for them? Do you send them to live with a partner, a coach, a family you don't know? I know of several girls, who were in situations where they moved away from home alone. Some of them did not fare well. I really can't say more than that.

In fact, I read every post quite fully. I simply disagree with you. It appears that you have some personal knowledge of a girl (or girls) who got into some sort of unseemly situation. That is unfortunate but as Ziggy pointed out, could happen anywhere, at any time.

It is absolutely up to parents to ensure that their child is in a safe and well supervised environment. That may well mean either making some difficult choices or yes, just saying "No". Being a parent is not always easy or fun but it is incumbent upon them to make the tough calls where their children are concerned.

The pairs and dance world are difficult enough, for a variety of reasons, without the ISU imposing rules that would further hamper partnerships simply for the sake of aligning with age restrictions for the Youth Olympics.

Tamara Moscvina was once quoted as saying it takes five years for a team to reach their potential. It would be nice if the ISU and it's members would look for ways to help nurture partnerships to their full potential rather than impose unnecessary age restrictions.

[slicekw]

WIth the way ice dancing is stealing pair spins, if we'll be seeing less of that in pairs, I honestly don't know what pairs skating is about any more.

any time the lady gets above the guy's shoulders?
And how about the way the footwork in the pairs is approaching footwork in dance.

While I sort-of see the logic of making everyone 18, 21 for the boys makes sense because young men grow until they are about that age, while young women reach maturity between 16-18. The flip side is you have pre-pubescent boys competing against grown adults, so maybe 18 is enough.

I see it as taking pairs down a notch, as younger teams with less experience will be going into seniors. Pairs has suffered a lot since the '80s. This could be a serious blow to it.

As for sexual abuse - statistics show that girls who participate in sports are less likely to be sexually active early than their peers. This is a good thing. I'd be more concerned about adult predators than competitors abusing each other. And that's a different thread.

Thanks for this thread, Sylvia. I don't think about rule changes enough and your work on this issue has brightened up my off-season with something to think about.

[cruisin]

Let's face it, the age restriction is somewhat arbitrary, regardless of it being 18 or 21 for boys. There is no absolute "right". Why not make it 25 for boys? When they raised it, people had issues, now that they want to lower it back, people have issues.

slicekw makes a very good point: within Junior (as it is now) you have 13-14 year old boys competing against 21 year old men. !8 could even out the level somewhat.

What is the big deal with moving up to Senior sooner? What difference does it make if the 5 years it takes to really get a team in synch takes place solely at the Junior level or, partly as a new Senior team. Most of the really successful teams do not stay at the Junior level for that long. The biggest problem we have establishing strong teams is that they don't stay together long enough to gel. Age limits on either side can cause break-ups, but there are many other reasons teams don't stay together. Maybe federations need to look at what all of those issues are and find more effective ways to retain teams. I do not think this is as big a deal as some people believe. You can make a case for either side. However, if they are just doing it for Youth Olympics, that is short sighted and the wrong reason.

[RUKen]

What is the big deal with moving up to Senior sooner? What difference does it make if the 5 years it takes to really get a team in synch takes place solely at the Junior level or, partly as a new Senior team.

It's difficult to get international assignments at the senior level if you are a young pairs team or a dance team from a country that has lots of pairs and dance teams, such as the US, Canada, and Russia.

[SUN]

Let's When they raised it, people had issues, not that they want to lower it back, people have issues.
.

IMO, people have issues with the permanent process of changing this. They want stability for a certain period of time.
When a new pair or dance team is grown skaters and coaches have certain objectives and plans, and this is not a 1 year project.

But when different changes happen (like age limits either up or down) you have to explain to a skater that next year he/she/they will not be able to compete at junior grand prix because of the age limit changes, and they will not be able to compete in senior because their ratings are low due to the fact they they did not compete last season and could not get the points.
Skaters may lose the motivation.

[her grace]

What is the big deal with moving up to Senior sooner? What difference does it make if the 5 years it takes to really get a team in synch takes place solely at the Junior level or, partly as a new Senior team.

The big deal is that there are hardly any competitions for an aged-out pair team to enter. Unless the team is at the very top, they will not be invited to a Grand Prix event, and there aren't many Senior Bs that include pair skating. This could mean that the aged-out team gets to enter one or less international competitions per skating season. And that would hinder the team's development long-term.

[cruisin]

IMO, people have issues with the permanent process of changing this. They want stability for a certain period of time.
When a new pair or dance team is grown skaters and coaches have certain objectives and plans, and this is not a 1 year project.

But when different changes happen (like age limits either up or down) you have to explain to a skater that next year he/she/they will not be able to compete at junior grand prix because of the age limit changes, and they will not be able to compete in senior because their ratings are low due to the fact they they did not compete last season and could not get the points.
Skaters may lose the motivation.

The above is reasonable. The age limits, themselves, are not as much a problem as the fact that it changes. Hopefully, whatever they decide, they'll leave it in place permanently.

The big deal is that there are hardly any competitions for an aged-out pair team to enter. Unless the team is at the very top, they will not be invited to a Grand Prix event, and there aren't many Senior Bs that include pair skating. This could mean that the aged-out team gets to enter one or less international competitions per skating season. And that would hinder the team's development long-term.

I hate to be harsh, but unless your team is one of the top ones getting the GP's, how far do you expect them to go? The middle of the pack Junior teams, that go to JGP's and don't make Junior Worlds, probably will not make more of a statement at Junior level than as a new Senior team. Senior "B's" don't really give teams serious international exposure, unless they are a top team doing one to get a program out.

Part of this issue could be money. Cut backs on the cost of hosting the JGP's.

[Sylvia]

SUN sums it up very succinctly in post #75 for me (thanks!).

For many competitive skaters (and a very small fraction at that), competing on the JGP (and receiving their national team jacket, for example) may end up being the highlight of their careers.

I started this thread because I am concerned for the current batch of skaters worldwide who are ISU Junior age-eligible under the current rules and may become aged out suddenly this coming season in singles or next season in pairs/dance, and well as for the future generation of skaters/teams that may be newly formed or forming now and have yet to compete internationally -- in short, for any and all young skaters who may never get the opportunity to experience a JGP if the ISU's proposed Junior age limits pass at the ISU Congress in June.

[reckless]

I hate to be harsh, but unless your team is one of the top ones getting the GP's, how far do you expect them to go? The middle of the pack Junior teams, that go to JGP's and don't make Junior Worlds, probably will not make more of a statement at Junior level than as a new Senior team. Senior "B's" don't really give teams serious international exposure, unless they are a top team doing one to get a program out.

Part of this issue could be money. Cut backs on the cost of hosting the JGP's.

A lot of teams spend a few years at the junior level before they reach the top. If they age out before they reach the top, they have no momentum going into seniors.

Here are few examples. Davis/White placed 13th at their first junior worlds in 2004 (when they were 2nd in US juniors), did not compete in 2004-05 when Charlie broke his ankle, and would have been ineligible for 2006 JW because Meryl would have aged out. Given their absence in 2004-05, they may not have received senior internationals in 2005-06. Would they have wound up as competitive as they did at the senior level without any international competition for two years? Or would they have been written off?

Belbin/Agosto would have aged out after their first junior worlds (a 3rd-place finish). The same with Delobel/Schoenfelder (a 4th-place finish).

I think the Shibutanis are good example of the impact the rule would have on a current young team. They would have aged out before this past year, so they would have turned senior as the silver medalists at junior worlds and US Nationals before last year. But does anyone think they would have been ready to compete as seniors? Last year, they got two JGP events, and qualified for the JGPF and JW. If they had been seniors last year, coming in after two junior silver medals, they would have been lucky to get one senior GP event. With D/W, B/A, S/B, NavBoms, and Chock/Zeurlein all ahead of them in the rankings, as well as a team with fairly comparable results like the Hubbels, what would the Shibs have done last year? Without international competitions and results, the Shibs would have probably lost funding from USFSA because they would not have met envelope criteria.

And what about teams that would have never made it to junior worlds at all. Domnina/Shabalin would have aged out before the 2000-01 season. They won junior worlds in 2002-03, the year they teamed up. Would they have bothered if they were going to have to start as seniors?

Chock/Zuerlein teamed up in 2005. They did not even reach Junior Worlds until 2009, which they won at an age where he would have been ineligible. Would that team have stuck around as low seniors -- a division where they would have to move to in 2007?

[cruisin]

A lot of teams spend a few years at the junior level before they reach the top. If they age out before they reach the top, they have no momentum going into seniors.

Here are few examples. Davis/White placed 13th at their first junior worlds in 2004 (when they were 2nd in US juniors), did not compete in 2004-05 when Charlie broke his ankle, and would have been ineligible for 2006 JW because Meryl would have aged out.

The age for girls was 18, how would this have effected Meryl? And their success had more to do with a coaching change than age.

The other teams you mention had success long before they would have aged out.