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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlieRow View Post
    Would it be possible for them to keep the 18/21 age cutoffs but then say no more than 3 years (or whatever) between partners ages if they wanted to prevent excessive age gaps?
    But sometimes you really do not have a lot of choice.

    Imagine being a young Polish or Australian pair skater.
    - There are very few potential partners in your country.
    - Being at developmental level, you don't have the status and the money that comes with it yet to relocate or pay towards somebody else relocating. Not to mention your or your parents could not even consider you leaving home either.

    So sometimes, the only partner that is available is going to be much younger.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 05-03-2010 at 12:08 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    The girl-18, boy-21 rule has only been in effect for about 6 years or so. Before that it was 18 for all. So, they are actually going back to the way it used to be.
    That is not true. My copy of the 1998 ISU Regulations has the "19 for ladies and 21 for men in pair skating and ice dancing" exception language. It is marked as a change so that's the year it went into effect.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.frog View Post
    That is not true. My copy of the 1998 ISU Regulations has the "19 for ladies and 21 for men in pair skating and ice dancing" exception language. It is marked as a change so that's the year it went into effect.
    It may have been in place for pairs, but it was not for dance (at least not in 2000). They've probably been playing with this for a while.

    I don't necessarily think that same age cut offs (for ladies and men) for pairs and dance is a bad thing. Maybe they should up the age for "team" disciplines to 19 or 20. But, in making the age limits different they create a whole other sort of problem. they create problems with teams where the age difference is great and they create a problem for teams where they are the same age or a year apart. I appreciate that finding a partner is hard, harder in some places than others, but age can be a problem regardless of the distribution.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by OlieRow View Post
    Would it be possible for them to keep the 18/21 age cutoffs but then say no more than 3 years (or whatever) between partners ages if they wanted to prevent excessive age gaps?
    Where in the ISU document does it say that age gaps are their concern? My understanding is that they are trying to align the ages across the entire ISU organization in order to be prepared for the upcoming Youth Olympics. To me, this shows more of an interest on the part of the ISU in sucking up to the IOC than in being caretakers of the sport and its participants.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogie View Post
    Where in the ISU document does it say that age gaps are their concern? My understanding is that they are trying to align the ages across the entire ISU organization in order to be prepared for the upcoming Youth Olympics. To me, this shows more of an interest on the part of the ISU in sucking up to the IOC than in being caretakers of the sport and its participants.
    Actually, this may strengthen pairs and dance. Don't be so quick to think it will be harmful. When there is a significant age disparity, there is also a maturity disparity. This may, very well, be a good thing. It will also keep the teams in the same age restriction, so that they can move up together. It could, very well, prevent many break ups.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    It may have been in place for pairs, but it was not for dance (at least not in 2000). They've probably been playing with this for a while.
    The language in the 1998 regulations absolutely did say both pairs and ice dancing. If by "in 2000" you are referring to the 1999-2000 competitive season, then the 1998 regulations would have been in effect at that time.

    Yes, the ISU has been playing with the age rules for both junior and senior competitions for a long time. But this particular rule was in effect in 1998.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    When there is a significant age disparity, there is also a maturity disparity. This may, very well, be a good thing. It will also keep the teams in the same age restriction, so that they can move up together. It could, very well, prevent many break ups.
    Maturity disparity can be a good thing, you want little girls to be confident that the partner who has them above their head is physically strong enough to do so.

    A good thing?? If they can 1st find a partner in the same age group and if your prepared to have a young boy lifting a girl who is often the same size and weight as him, In fact a lot of boys don't even grow until 15-16.

    Personally as the mother of a 16 year boy there are not many 14-15 year old girls I would be comfortable seeing him lift or throw, Its dangerous to the girl and physically dangerous to a still growing body for the boy.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.frog View Post
    The language in the 1998 regulations absolutely did say both pairs and ice dancing. If by "in 2000" you are referring to the 1999-2000 competitive season, then the 1998 regulations would have been in effect at that time.

    Yes, the ISU has been playing with the age rules for both junior and senior competitions for a long time. But this particular rule was in effect in 1998.
    I don't have my old rule books, so I can't look any of this up. But, I do remember that there was a change raising the age limit for boys in pairs and dance to 21, sometime after the 00/01 season. Do me a favor, and check the limits for 00/01. Also, could it be that the old age regulation was 18 for girls/19 or 20 for boys?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oz_sk8ting_mum View Post
    Maturity disparity can be a good thing, you want little girls to be confident that the partner who has them above their head is physically strong enough to do so.

    A good thing?? If they can 1st find a partner in the same age group and if your prepared to have a young boy lifting a girl who is often the same size and weight as him, In fact a lot of boys don't even grow until 15-16.

    Personally as the mother of a 16 year boy there are not many 14-15 year old girls I would be comfortable seeing him lift or throw, Its dangerous to the girl and physically dangerous to a still growing body for the boy.
    Sorry for the double post.

    I understand your concerns, but age doesn't necessarily dictate size. And while I see your points re: physical maturity, I don't know that it is a good thing for 12 year old girls to be partnering 18 year old boys. Even when they are close in age, there can be emotional problems.

  10. #30

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    I'm very about this one (page 64):

    5. Special Categories for All Disciplines

    It is evident that some Skaters who reach the upper age limit for Juniors require further improvement (through training and competition) to compete effectively with more seasoned Skaters.
    Accordingly, Skaters of an age exceeding Junior age may be assigned to one of two Special Categories (SC) titled: SC1 and SC2. Such assignment is made by each Skater’s respective Member association if approved by the relevant ISU Technical Committee.
    It is foreseen that at national level elite Skaters of a Member aged 18, 19 will be assigned to SC1, those aged 20, 21, 22 to category SC2 and can take part in all International Competitions, ISU Events and Olympic Winter Games, provided they are qualified and entered by their Member/NOC according to the ISU/IOC Rules Age reached before the July 1st immediately preceding the relevant competition.
    In Pairs and Ice Dance, Skaters of age for SC1 or SC2 can participate with a partner of Junior age in competitions open to the mentioned categories SC1 or SC2, but the Pair or Couple having one Junior Skater cannot skate in Junior competitions.
    Organizers may organize events/competitions that permit all entered Skaters in categories SC1 and SC2 to compete with the other entered Skaters. The results for the Special Categories, however, may be separately reported for statistical purposes.
    It's for singles as well but I see this as more relevant to pairs/dance so I post this in this thread rather then the other.

    Is this a way to offer aged-out-but-not-senior-ready-teams the possibility to compete? What's the exact purpose of the categories? Is it only a distinction at national level? Are there separate SC1 and SC2 category winners at competitions? Actually which kind of comps should include such a segment? Senior Bs? GPs? Can a comp/event be exclusively for SC1 and SC2 teams?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    Sorry for the double post.

    I understand your concerns, but age doesn't necessarily dictate size. And while I see your points re: physical maturity, I don't know that it is a good thing for 12 year old girls to be partnering 18 year old boys. Even when they are close in age, there can be emotional problems.
    Lets face it .. there are always emotional problems.. no matter the age In fact they get worse as they get older !!! THAT would be the least of my worry's .. THAT is just life

  12. #32
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by OlieRow View Post
    Would it be possible for them to keep the 18/21 age cutoffs but then say no more than 3 years (or whatever) between partners ages if they wanted to prevent excessive age gaps?
    Surely this would be a much more sensible approach. You make too big a change too soon the small number of competitors will just throw in the towel and the discipline may never recover. I agree that a 5-7 year age gap is just ridiculous, so bring it down to 3 years but maintain the current age limits ... should fix the issues, and give teams plenty of time to make adjustments in team composition if necessary. :runs:

    It is so hard to find teams here in the minority countries that this may just kill the discipline in Australia completely.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by softlip View Post
    I'm very about this one (page 64):



    It's for singles as well but I see this as more relevant to pairs/dance so I post this in this thread rather then the other.

    Is this a way to offer aged-out-but-not-senior-ready-teams the possibility to compete? What's the exact purpose of the categories? Is it only a distinction at national level? Are there separate SC1 and SC2 category winners at competitions? Actually which kind of comps should include such a segment? Senior Bs? GPs? Can a comp/event be exclusively for SC1 and SC2 teams?
    It sounds like they might be opening the door for special SC1 and SC2 events or, more likely, the possibility that a country could invite SC1 or SC2 competitors to a GP or Senior B. Of course, that makes little sense because nearly any team aged-out of juniors is almost certainly going to be eligible for senior competition. The idea that anyone is going to host events specially for SC1 or SC2 competitors is beyond absurd. The ISU can't even find places that want to host the GPs with the top-ranked senior skaters. Who is going to volunteer to host competitions for the pairs and dance teams that are in international limbo because they are aged out of juniors but not strong enough to compete at senior internationals?

  14. #34

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    For those interested in the ages for the Youth Olympics, I found this:

    http://www.olympicmonitor.com/ioc-ex...innsbruck.html

    Over 1,000 athletes will compete in Innsbruck in seven sports, comprising 63 events. The number of sports on the programme is identical to the Vancouver programme. Each event has its own age group* competing, either 15-16, 16-17 or 17-18 years old. The bobsleigh age group will be 18-19 years old, and male participants in the pairs and ice dancing skating events will be 15-18 years old, to comply with the specificities of the sport.


    * The age being the athlete’s age on 31 December in the year of the YOG.
    I assume that the date of 31st December would be 2011 for the 2012 event.

    I'm sure I read somewhere that for singles the ages would be 15/16 but as yet I can't find a link.

  15. #35
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    Thumbs down

    It seems silly to hinder so many pairs/couples for an event which takes place once every 4 years ... and doesnt have the status of main Olys or even Junior Worlds.

    However maybe one solution could be split Juniors into Junior A and Junior B events one being for those up to 18, and the second for those up to say 23 give skaters even more of a chance to develop. And keep restrictions on switching between Junior/Senior. Not sure how it would work in terms of Grand Prix events and keeping numbers down ... but arguably it would keep more people happy?

    The one disadvantage of the current system is as mentioned above guys ditching partner of same age in order to stay at Junior. But then it recognises the fact that guys take longer to develop.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oz_sk8ting_mum View Post
    Lets face it .. there are always emotional problems.. no matter the age In fact they get worse as they get older !!! THAT would be the least of my worry's .. THAT is just life
    That would be the least of your worries because you have a boy. I am sure that your son is a perfect gentleman, but not all are. There are incidents of molestation in teams that are close in age, but the problem becomes a bigger issue when the age is greater. In addition, it in not always a good idea for young girls to be "hanging around" with much older partners and their friends. I am just pointing out that there are other aspects to consider.

    Personally, I think that there are many ways that skating can protect it's athletes. There are some moves that very young skaters should just not be doing. The younger we see these kids doing more difficult elements, the more injuries we see. Maybe some elements should just not be allowed at certain levels. Maybe they should raise the minimum age for junior and make the maximum age 20 for all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperfect Edge View Post
    However maybe one solution could be split Juniors into Junior A and Junior B events one being for those up to 18, and the second for those up to say 23 give skaters even more of a chance to develop. And keep restrictions on switching between Junior/Senior. Not sure how it would work in terms of Grand Prix events and keeping numbers down ... but arguably it would keep more people happy?
    The problem with that is that it will not be taken seriously. At Junior Nationals, years ago, they had 2 Intermediate events in dance, not sure if they had it for pairs (I don't remember if they did this for Juvenile). Intermediate A & Intermediate B (I think). One was for age eligible, the other for aged out couples. No one really took the aged out competitors seriously, so they dropped it.

    The one disadvantage of the current system is as mentioned above guys ditching partner of same age in order to stay at Junior. But then it recognises the fact that guys take longer to develop.
    It does, but that doesn't help the girl who was with that boy for several years, worked hard, and now has no partner.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oz_sk8ting_mum View Post
    Maturity disparity can be a good thing, you want little girls to be confident that the partner who has them above their head is physically strong enough to do so.

    A good thing?? If they can 1st find a partner in the same age group and if your prepared to have a young boy lifting a girl who is often the same size and weight as him, In fact a lot of boys don't even grow until 15-16.

    Personally as the mother of a 16 year boy there are not many 14-15 year old girls I would be comfortable seeing him lift or throw, Its dangerous to the girl and physically dangerous to a still growing body for the boy.
    I thought that this was the real purpose for the age disparity.
    It's a matter of health, and safety, for the skaters involved.
    That is more important than most of the reasons that have been mentioned for justifying the suggested changes.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruisin View Post
    That would be the least of your worries because you have a boy. I am sure that your son is a perfect gentleman, but not all are. There are incidents of molestation in teams that are close in age, but the problem becomes a bigger issue when the age is greater. In addition, it in not always a good idea for young girls to be "hanging around" with much older partners and their friends. I am just pointing out that there are other aspects to consider.
    Do you have any basis -- other than your opinion -- that older boys are more likely to engage in inappropriate sexual activity with younger girls? I would think that a boy who is 3-5 years older is less likely to be interested in the girl with whom he skates. In most states, sexual activity between people with such an age difference would be a crime, and is often a felony if the boy has turned 18. Honestly, I would think teens of similar ages are more likely to fool around.

    It does, but that doesn't help the girl who was with that boy for several years, worked hard, and now has no partner.
    But how does this proposal cure that problem? Under the new age rules, you add another variable -- the boy's development -- into the equation. While the boy may not ditch the girl so he can stay junior, you could wind up with a couple that only learns after several years that the boy is not going to grow tall enough for pairs or dance. So your girl may still be partnerless after years of skating. Only now she is ineligible for juniors and, having a smaller partner, has probably not developed sufficiently to be competitive at the senior level.

    How often does it even occur that a boy drops a female partner because she is age-ineligible for juniors and he wants to stay junior? For that to happen under the current rules, the boy would have to be less than three years older than the girl, which is relatively uncommon according to Sylvia's numbers from JW and JGP. And he is probably not going to have that many more years of junior eligibility, so I just can't see that being a major reason for a decision to switch partners.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless View Post
    Do you have any basis -- other than your opinion -- that older boys are more likely to engage in inappropriate sexual activity with younger girls?
    Yes I do, but will not offer examples, for obvious reasons.

    Honestly, I would think teens of similar ages are more likely to fool around.
    Fooling around is one issue, if it is mutually consensual. But, it is not always that way.


    But how does this proposal cure that problem? Under the new age rules, you add another variable -- the boy's development -- into the equation. While the boy may not ditch the girl so he can stay junior, you could wind up with a couple that only learns after several years that the boy is not going to grow tall enough for pairs or dance. So your girl may still be partnerless after years of skating. Only now she is ineligible for juniors and, having a smaller partner, has probably not developed sufficiently to be competitive at the senior level.
    That is a valid point, however, that is a problem regardless. Female athletes can have growth spurts much later than average. Female athletes, especially in a sport that rewards thinness, often begin menses at a later age. Therefore, they can grow in height into their late teens/twenties.

    How often does it even occur that a boy drops a female partner because she is age-ineligible for juniors and he wants to stay junior? For that to happen under the current rules, the boy would have to be less than three years older than the girl, which is relatively uncommon according to Sylvia's numbers from JW and JGP. And he is probably not going to have that many more years of junior eligibility, so I just can't see that being a major reason for a decision to switch partners.
    It happens.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperfect Edge View Post
    It seems silly to hinder so many pairs/couples for an event which takes place once every 4 years ... and doesnt have the status of main Olys or even Junior Worlds.
    THIS.

    I honestly don't know why the ISU cares that much about the YOG; pressure from the IOC? They can just send the teams that fall within the age limits of the YOG and keep the current ones for JGP/ J Worlds. Not all sports feature the best teams anyway. For example, the teams participating in football at the YOG are:
    Boys: Singapore, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Bolivia, Vanuatu, Montenegro
    Girls: Iran, Equatorial Guinea, Trinidad and Tobago, Chile, Papua New Guinea, Turkey

    With all due respect, how many of them have ever made it to the World Cup finals?

    This rule is just going to kill pairs/ dance in smaller nations. We don't have a large pool of skaters to begin with, and there's a huge dearth of male partners overall. Why does the ISU want to make life so difficult for the poor skaters?

    Reckless, there's a reason why most early partnerships do not last; there are far too many factors at play; motivation, finances, compatibility of partners, physical size (I guess to some extent you can tell how tall skaters will be looking at their parents?), talent levels, injury etc. Partnerships as long as Virtue/Moir's and Davis/White's are the rarity, not the norm. IMO, the new rules will just mean a smaller pool of suitable partners for a skater, if both parties are looking at a long-term partnership which allows them sufficient time for development at the junior level.

    Honestly, I'd be far more afraid of coaches than skaters themselves if we're talking sexual abuse/ molestation. Does anyone have any statistics or anecdotal evidence?

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