Dumb Spiral Question, (Sorry)

[Firefly123]

I was looking through the guidelines and, basically, I understand the ISJ, but this is one of the things I am confused about.....

It says that it is a feature to hold the spiral position for over 6 seconds. Let's say that your spiral sequence consists of:

LIB (catch)
ROF
ROB

If each spiral position is held for more than 6 seconds, does that equal 3 features (one for each spiral)?
Or do you have to hold all three for over 6 seconds to equal the one feature?
Or does it only count once as a feature, so it counts for the first spiral but not the subsequent ones?

Thanks. Sorry about that. Would ask a coach, but even some of the coaches seem confused about some of this stuff.

[gkelly]

I was looking through the guidelines and, basically, I understand the ISJ, but this is one of the things I am confused about.....

It says that it is a feature to hold the spiral position for over 6 seconds. Let's say that your spiral sequence consists of:

LIB (catch)
ROF
ROB

If each spiral position is held for more than 6 seconds, does that equal 3 features (one for each spiral)?

My understanding is that you can only get credit for that feature once. So choose which of the three positions you want to hold that long. If you hold them all, it may help your GOE but it won't help the level.

Or do you have to hold all three for over 6 seconds to equal the one feature?

No. But you do have to hold at least two of them for 3 seconds to get credit for the sequence.

Or does it only count once as a feature, so it counts for the first spiral but not the subsequent ones?

This.
You can choose to put the 6-second hold only on one of the later spirals in the sequence and not the first one.

Of course all of this might change depending on whether the major changes to junior and spiral sequence rules are approved at the ISU Congress at the end of June. But the US would probably wait a year before making major changes for novice and adult levels.

[vesperholly]

Of course all of this might change depending on whether the major changes to junior and spiral sequence rules are approved at the ISU Congress at the end of June. But the US would probably wait a year before making major changes for novice and adult levels.

I'm not exactly sure, but I think USFS has a "reflection" rule that whatever IJS changes the ISU makes, so too does USFS - automatically and without a vote.

[Firefly123]

Thanks. I doubted that holding the positions, by itself, made it a level 3, but I honestly counldn't figure it out by the wording.

[gkelly]

I'm not exactly sure, but I think USFS has a "reflection" rule that whatever IJS changes the ISU makes, so too does USFS - automatically and without a vote.

Yes, and that will apply to the junior and senior short and long programs.

The novice rules are separate and not specified in the current ISU proposals, and the US doesn't strictly follow ISU novice rules anyway. And the ISU doesn't make rules for adult competitions. So USFS would have to make changes at those levels on their own initiative. Whether they will do so for 2010-11 season, without going through a vote at Governing Council, is the question.

Thanks. I doubted that holding the positions, by itself, made it a level 3, but I honestly counldn't figure it out by the wording.

To reach level 3, you need three different features. One of them can be a 6-second hold in one of the positions. One of them could be a difficult position since you mention a catch. That would be level 2.

If you want level 3 you'd need another feature. Good old edge change would probably be the easiest: could you do RFI-RFO (3 seconds in each) and then LBI (catch, 6 seconds)?

[Firefly123]

Thanks for the info!! So, right now I think it is only a level 2. (Difficult position and 6+sec hold). Definitely going to work on a RIF-OF edge change to get the level 3. (Hopefully the MITF will help.)...But I'll probably have to stop there. No full splits or Y positions in my future.

[sk8er1964]

LIB (catch)
ROF
ROB

Just a little housekeeping. In the rule book you will usually see the direction before the edge ie LBI, RFO, RBO. Just wanted to pint this out to avoid future confusion.

gkelly is right on the rules that you asked about.

ETA - one thing to be careful of on the change edge - if you have a dip on the change where the free leg goes lower than the hip even for a second, you lose that feature. Happened to me - couldn't figure out why my L2 ended up as an L1 until I saw the video. Sure enough I broke on that change.

[Firefly123]

Just a little housekeeping. In the rule book you will usually see the direction before the edge ie LBI, RFO, RBO. Just wanted to pint this out to avoid future confusion.

Oooops! Will do.

Thanks for the advice on the edge change. I will definitely keep that hip/leg up there on the edge change. I also read that it has to be done quickly (I think I read within 1 meter of ice space.)

You guys are really very nice!! I'm glad I spent this time on the forum and got to know you all a little better.

A lot of the members have given me some really good advice. When I get back onto the ice I will video some of the spins/moves and post link to see what you think. (Would be nice to get some constructive criticicism on the MITF before I attempt them in front of some poor judge.)

Also, on spins, I am a little bit confused on levels. For example, a few years ago I asked Dianne Deleeuw if stars were considered a difficult entry to spins (I thought so), but at that time she said no, but that it might help the GOE. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Figure-Sk...ures-Spins.htm

Jumps are pretty much self explainatory.

Getting stitches out today. Hopefully, back on the ice by the end of the month. Have video camera. Will post.

Be Nice!!

[Doubletoe]

Yes, and that will apply to the junior and senior short and long programs.

The novice rules are separate and not specified in the current ISU proposals, and the US doesn't strictly follow ISU novice rules anyway. And the ISU doesn't make rules for adult competitions. So USFS would have to make changes at those levels on their own initiative. Whether they will do so for 2010-11 season, without going through a vote at Governing Council, is the question.

Actually, ISU rule changes on level features are automatically incorporated into IJS events in the U.S. each season, including the adult events that are judged on IJS. Typically, new IJS rules (like level features and point values) take effect July 1 and new USFSA rules (like new moves-in-the field test elements) take effect September 1.

To reach level 3, you need three different features. One of them can be a 6-second hold in one of the positions. One of them could be a difficult position since you mention a catch. That would be level 2.

If you want level 3 you'd need another feature. Good old edge change would probably be the easiest: could you do RFI-RFO (3 seconds in each) and then LBI (catch, 6 seconds)?

Don't forget the change of edge must now be completed within 1 meter--just over 3 feet--which is actually very hard to do, but definitely worth working on.
Unfortunately, none of these spiral level features will matter if the ISU passes the proposal to remove levels from spiral sequences and give them a standard base value starting next season.

[gkelly]

Unfortunately, none of these spiral level features will matter if the ISU passes the proposal to remove levels from spiral sequences and give them a standard base value starting next season.

Right.

So the question is, what changes if any will USFS make to the novice ladies' SP and the novice and adult freeskates for 2010-11 if the proposed changes for the junior and senior levels are adopted this June.

[Firefly123]

Unfortunately, none of these spiral level features will matter if the ISU passes the proposal to remove levels from spiral sequences and give them a standard base value starting next season.

So this means, basically, they would only be judging edge quality, speed etc. Positions would not matter? Even edge changes would not matter?

[gkelly]

Who knows? We haven't seen the guidelines yet.

I would expect that everything that already figures into the GOEs will still be there -- the quality of the edges, the quality of the positions, whether it goes with the music, etc.

But will there be provisions for judges to reward difficulty in the spirals? The features that contribute to the levels now, or anything that doesn't count as a feature but is recognizable difficult and could/should have been a feature?

[Doubletoe]

So this means, basically, they would only be judging edge quality, speed etc. Positions would not matter? Even edge changes would not matter?

Well, the new spiral rules have now been approved, and as of now, there is nothing specific in the GOE guidelines that would award +GOE to any of the previous level features. Things that get GOE's are things like speed & flow, body line, extension, flexibility, originality, getting into position quickly, etc., but the interpretation of what counts as body line, extension and flexibility is left up to the judges rather than the technical definitions we have had up to now.