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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by OlieRow View Post
    But they'll do the same patterns as they do now?
    Yes, same exact pattern, just using their own music instead of what's currently being provided for them. I think it's being proposed to help prepare the younger levels for this new ISU short dance.

  2. #42
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    Thanks for clarifying Tammi.

  3. #43

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    Many thanks to HisWeirness for the lengthy synopsis of the proposals in his several posts. I have downloaded and saved the .pdf files for personal reading at leisure, but getting a general overview as he presented was most beneficial. Much appreciated for sure.
    There is nothing more captivating in this world than a woman's form gracing the ice in skating boots. It's simply sensational!

  4. #44
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    213. Austria FS: In view of the fact that the number of entries to the Olympic Games is limited, the qualification should be based on the names of the competitors, who actually placed within the top 24 in singles and 16 in pairs and 19 in dance at the previous World Championships and not the country. The right to participate in the Olympics should be privilege of the athletes and not their Member Associations.
    That would mean Nationals the year before the Olympics determines the potential Olympic team, and the Olympic team is determined at Worlds before the Olympics if a country qualifies Olympic spots at the prior Worlds. This doesn't address whether a skater who qualifies through the Olympic qualifier in the fall before the Olympics earns the spot for him/her/their self/ves.

    In view of the fact that the number of entries to Championships is limited under these proposals, there are actually more guaranteed spots in the Olympics (24 for singles, 16 for Pairs, 19 for Dance than for Championships (20 for singles, 12 for pairs, 12/15 for dance in Euros/4C's or Worlds) and more overall spots in the Olympics than for Euros and 4C's (30 vs. 28 for singles, 20 vs. 18 for pairs, 24 vs. 20 for dance). Why doesn't the proposal just require all of the slots to go to specific skaters vs. countries?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    I love that France is trying to think of ways to bring in cash, but if online gambling of skating events becomes standard than I fear for my financial well being.
    Figure skating wouldn't be a betting event.
    On-line bets about sports were forbidden in France. But the EU has asked the governement to liberalize the sector. So there are big operations and talks and the market should gain life for the football world cup. It would approximatively represent 250 millions € in sponsoring for sports in France. And if the football, rugby, tennis and a few other federations are expected to get the biggest part of the cake, other federations are lining up too to get a little slice. ( Woof ! )

    OTOH, sports with grades are considered too "manipulable" and won't be the subject of bets (that includes gymnastics, figure skating, some events of horse-riding ...).
    But the french fed is also governing speed skating (and even curling) which does fit the criterias. As developping speed skating has been required from the french fed (by the press, by the sport minister) after Vancouver, it would fit perfectly, especially as Gailhaguet has made moves to make some bridge with roller in line skaters, both for speed and figure skating. And there is a project to build a speed skating rink in Annecy (France doesn't have any). Gailhaguet and whoever will be in power after June should therefore become very interested in speed skating to bring a nice bit of extra money to the FFSG.

  6. #46
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    Ah ok. That makes sense.

    Well then my bank account shall remain pathetic rather than completely obliterated.

  7. #47
    The wiener takes it all
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    Ice Dance Technical Rules Proposals

    Lots of definitions of the new dances here. IDTC = Ice Dance Technical Committee

    281. IDTC: The pattern of any dance is the design of the dance on the ice. The diagram of a Pattern Dance includes all the information needed to execute one complete pattern (sequence) of the dance.

    Set Pattern Dance – A dance for which the location, direction and curvature of all edges to be skated are designated in the diagram. This diagram must be followed as closely as possible.

    Optional Pattern Dance – A dance for which the pattern may be altered by a Couple provided that the original step sequences, positions and timing are maintained. Each repetition of the altered pattern must be executed in the same manner and the restart must be commenced from the same place.


    282. IDTC: All Pattern Dances may be started with optional introductory steps/movements which shall not exceed the introductory phrasing (8 measures) of the particular tune (unless otherwise specified).

    Sequence – The set order of the prescribed steps/turns that compose one pattern (sequence) of a Pattern Dance or any portion thereof.

    Step Sequence– A series of prescribed or un-prescribed steps, turns and movements in a Short Dance and Free Dance. Divided into three groups (A, B, C).
    A: straight line step sequences (midline, diagonal)
    B: curved step sequences (circular, serpentine)
    C: partial step sequences - series of steps and/or turns that can be performed anywhere on the ice surface. The steps and/or turns maybe specified to be performed in a prescribed order or may be performed in any order as specified for the particular dance by the IDTC.


    283. IDTC: Dance lifts. Dance Lift (definition) – A movement in which one of the partners is elevated with active and/or passive assistance of the other partner to any permitted height, sustained there and set down on the ice.

    284. IDTC: Holds. Update language to include new dances.

    285, 286, 287, and 288. IDTC: Update language to include new pattern dances.


    289. IDTC: Short Dance.
    “Short Dance” - is a dance created by an Ice Dance couple to dance music with designated rhythm(s) and/or theme(s) selected by the Ice Dance Technical committee annually for the season. The dance must reflect the character of the selected dance rhythm(s) or theme(s) and be translated to the ice by demonstrating technical skill with steps and movements along with flow and the use of edges.

    The duration of the Short Dance must be two minutes and 50 seconds.

    The music for the Short Dance, including music for the specified Pattern Dance (if required) is to be provided by the couple. Only dance music with an audible rhythmic beat may be used and couples must skate primarily to the rhythmic beat. Vocal music is permitted.

    The choreography must fit to the phrasing of the music and must express and reflect the character of the dance. Incorrect selection of music (rhythm(s) and/or tempo) will be penalized. Couples are required to submit the name/title of the selected music and the rhythm(s)/theme(s) of their program when registering their music for the information of the Referee and Judges.

    There are no restrictions on dance holds (or variation thereof). Skating in Hand-in-Hand hold with fully extended arms is permitted only if in the character of the rhythm chosen but must not be used excessively.

    Partners must not separate except to change hold or to perform not-touching step/turn sequences, a set of twizzles or during the permitted stops. The change of hold must not exceed the duration of one measure of music.

    A program which is choreographed so that its performance extends to all sides of the arena is preferable to one directed to only one side (Judge’s side).

    Touching the ice with the hand(s) is not permitted.

    Kneeling or sliding on two knees and/or sitting on the ice is not allowed and it will be considered by the Technical Panel as a fall.

    The rhythm (or group of rhythms) and/or theme(s) as well as the guidelines and technical requirements for the Junior and Senior programs, including specified elements will be published annually by the Ice Dance Technical Committee in an ISU Communication.

    The dance will contain elements selected by the IDTC from the list of required elements specified below:
    • Dance Lift(s) – see Rule 604, paragraph 16;
    • Dance Spin(s) – see Rule 604, paragraph 14 e;
    • Set(s) of Twizzles – see Rule 604, paragraph 14 b);
    • Step Sequence(s) – see Rule 603, paragraph 4 (Groups A, B, C);
    Sequence(s) of Pattern Dances;
    Combination(s) of steps/turns from Pattern Dances.

    Illegal elements: (new) Jumps (or throw jumps) of more than one (1) revolution or jumps of one (1) revolution skated at the same time by both partners.


    290. IDTC: Free Dance. Some additional words added to definition.
    The program including Required Elements must be skated in time and phase with the music. The couple should skate primarily in time to the rhythmic beat, and not to the melody alone.

    The choreography should clearly reflect the dance character, accents and nuances of the chosen dance music, demonstrating a close relationship between partners with obvious, distinct changes of mood and pace with variations in speed and tempo.

    291. IDTC: Free Dance. Duration of the Novice FD is 3 minutes.


    292. IDTC: Free Dance music.
    The music for Free Dance must be suitable for Ice Dance as a sport discipline and must have the following characteristics:
    1. The music must have an audible rhythmic beat and melody, or audible rhythmic beat alone, but not melody alone, and may be vocal. The music may be without an audible rhythmic beat for up to 10 seconds at the beginning or end of the program and up to 10 seconds during the program.
    2. The music must have at least one change of tempo and/or expression. This change may be gradual or immediate, but in either case it must be obvious.
    3. All music including classical music must be cut/edited, orchestrated or arranged in a way that it creates an interesting, colorful, entertaining dance program with different dance moods or a building effect.
    4. The music must be suitable for the couple's skating skills and technical ability.

    Free Dances that do not adhere to these guidelines will be severely penalized.


    293, 294. IDTC: Update rules about permitted elements, steps, etc. for Free Dance.

    295. IDTC: Free Dance. The number of separations to execute intricate footwork is not restricted. The distance between partners should not exceed two arms lengths. The duration of each such separation must be up to 5 seconds.

    296. IDTC: Free dance holds. Nothing really new.

    297. IDTC: Free Dance. Touching the ice with the hand(s) is not permitted.
    Kneeling or sliding on two knees and/or sitting on the ice is not allowed and it will be considered by the Technical Panel as a fall.


    298. IDTC: Free Dance. Include Novice FD in well-balanced definition.

    299. IDTC: Free Dance. More about kneeling on the ice, change to reflect proposal 297.

    300. IDTC: Update scoring specifications to reflect new dances.

    301. IDTC: Marking of Short and Free Dance. Illegal elements - If there is an illegal movement during the execution of any element, the deduction for an illegal movement will apply and the element will receive Level 1 if the requirements for at least Level 1 are fulfilled. Otherwise the element will be called No Level. Goal is to lessen penalty when elements go wrong.


    302. IDTC: PCS (Program Component Scores). Conformity to pattern and stop requirements (Short Dance only) moves from the Transitions score to the Composition/Choreography score.

    Interpretation/Timing will include whether the music's rhythm is expressed well by the dance and whether the skaters skate to the rhythm of the music (both for short dance and free dance). Also, whether the music is "appropriate."


    303. IDTC: “Rhumba D’Amour” removed from the list of CDs/Pattern Dances for ISU/International competitions.
    Combination(s) of steps/turns from the Pattern Dances may be included as required element(s) in the Short Dance.

    304. IDTC: updates to reflect new pattern dance procedures.

    305. IDTC: Competition schedules. Pattern dance or Short Dance must be skated before the Free Dance.
    At the option of the Organizers the Pattern Dance(s) or Short Dance can be skated either on a preceding day or on the same day as the Free Dance (except ISU Junior and Senior Grand Prix events) provided there is an interval of at least four hours after the ending of the Pattern Dance(s) or Short Dance.

    306. IDTC: Draws. Update to reflect new format.

    307. ISU: Clarify procedure in case of withdrawal or disqualification.

    308. IDTC: Warm-up periods. Update to reflect new format.

    309. IDTC: In case of an interruption in the competition due to unforeseen circumstances of more than ten (10) minutes, the Couples concerned will be permitted a second warm-up period of five (5) minutes duration.

    310. IDTC: Program interruptions. Update to reflect new format.

    311. IDTC: Program interruptions. No restarts of the whole program are allowed. The only exception to this principal is when the tempo or quality of the music is deficient or incorrect music is played, a restart from the beginning of the program is allowed if the Competitors inform the Referee within 30 seconds after the start.

    312. IDTC: Program interruptions. Update to reflect new format.

    313. IDTC: Announcement of Dance requirements.
    For Novice International Competitions, the lists of Pattern Dances will be announced annually by the Ice Dance Technical Committee in the ISU Communication not later than June 1st, to become effective on July 1st of the year
    following the announcement.
    For other International competitions (except Senior and Junior Grand Prix events) the Pattern Dance to be skated may be decided by the Organizers and included in the Announcement. note: most Senior and Jr. events will use the Short Dance, not the Pattern Dance.

    314. IDTC: Announcement of Dance requirements.
    The specific requirements for the Short Dance and Free Dance will be decided annually by the Ice Dance Technical Committee and announced in ISU Communication.
    The specific requirements announced for the Short Dance and Free Dance must be used at all ISU Championships, ISU Grand Prix Events (Junior and Senior) and respective International Competitions during the year, from July 1st to June 30th, for which it is announced.

    315. IDTC: Announcement of Dance requirements.
    All Communications concerning technical requirements must be published before June 1st to provide skaters and coaches with the required information earlier.

    316. IDTC: Pattern Dances. Remove Rhumba D’Amour from list.

    317. IDTC: Duration of Program. Short Dance is two (2) minutes and 50 seconds. Novice FD is 3 minutes.


    318. ISU: Draws for starting order at ISU Championships. Update to reflect new format.
    Based on the result of the Short Dance,
    a) Competitors placed 1 to 15 in the ISU European Figure Skating Championships and the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships will qualify for the final Free Dance.
    b) Competitors placed 1 to 16 in the ISU World Figure Skating Championships and the ISU World Junior
    Figure Skating Championships will qualify for the final Free Dance.



    319. ISU: Judges draws, Update to reflect new format.

    320, 321, 322. IDTC: Update starting order/warm-up groups table with the new dance names. Delete OD draw groups table.

    323-373 are Synchro rule proposals. That's all folks.

    Looks like for ice dance we need to wait for an official ISU Communication/Announcement about what the required elements for the Short Dance and Free Dance will be.

  8. #48

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    I like many of the changes, particularly: 3A for women in the short (Go Mao!!); no spiral sequence in the Ladies SP (fabulous, those were getting awfully dull and generic); and counting the half-loop as a jump.

    In general, it sounds like there will be a little more room for creativity. But I'm not so sure about this one:

    Kneeling or sliding on both knees has been outlawed in both the short dance and FD, as has swinging a partner around by the skates or legs (doesn't say anything about costumes, though, I thought that had also been included?).
    Kneeling or sliding on the knees can make for some interesting choreography which allows skater to utilize different height levels.

    And I think some interest dance lifts involve swinging a partner around by legs? None come to mind but I can see what it looks like in my mind's eye.

  9. #49

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    My interpretation of the above, is that for the majority of Junior/Senior competitions the short dance will be used, but some B internationals may choose to use the pattern dance instead.
    The short dance, appears to just be the existing OD but 20 seconds longer.

    Does this mean that Juniors/Seniors will have to prepare a short dance and a set pattern dance?

    Will the theme for the short dance be the original 60/70/80's theme, or will it be the viennese waltz?

    This is starting to look very messy, and no-one will be ready for the new season in time!

  10. #50

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    "d) Novice:
    i) A Novice is a Skater who, before the July 1st immediately preceding the relevant competition, has reached the age of ten (10) but not the age of thirteen (13).
    ii) In International Novice Competitions, subgroups are permitted with the approval of the Council.
    iii) A Novice Skater in Pairs or Ice Dance may compete in a Junior Competition with a Junior partner if that partner is age-eligible to compete in the relevant competition as a Junior."

    So do I read this correctly that in Novice only kids between 10-12 years old can compete in any of the disciplines - so by 13 skaters have to be moved up to Junior???

  11. #51
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    It makes no sense to make a QR and a minimum score! The number of entries at ISU Championships will be so low, that they don't need a QR, and with one lesser element in the SP, it will be impossible for the most skaters from the smaller federations to get 30 or 40 points in the SP and 50 or 60 in the FP and pairs from smaller federations will never have a chance to compete in ISU championships!

    I don't understand why the ISU want to destroy figure skating in the most countries of the world!

    Is there a chance that the proposals won't become reality? If this proposal go through, figure skating will not exist for me anymore!
    Last edited by elfenblüte; 05-01-2010 at 11:42 AM.

  12. #52

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    Yeah to limiting 2A in the long program to only 2. It was getting annoying that skaters without the full complement of triples were able to pad their score by filling up empty jump passes...

  13. #53

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    Thank you so much HisWeirness for taking the time to break all this down!

    Quote Originally Posted by HisWeirness View Post
    292. IDTC: Free Dance music.
    The music for Free Dance must be suitable for Ice Dance as a sport discipline and must have the following characteristics:
    1. The music must have an audible rhythmic beat and melody, or audible rhythmic beat alone, but not melody alone, and may be vocal. The music may be without an audible rhythmic beat for up to 10 seconds at the beginning or end of the program and up to 10 seconds during the program.
    2. The music must have at least one change of tempo and/or expression. This change may be gradual or immediate, but in either case it must be obvious.
    3. All music including classical music must be cut/edited, orchestrated or arranged in a way that it creates an interesting, colorful, entertaining dance program with different dance moods or a building effect.
    4. The music must be suitable for the couple's skating skills and technical ability.

    Free Dances that do not adhere to these guidelines will be severely penalized.

    Does this imply that we've dodged the bullet when it comes to the uplifting music requirement? Music can be interesting and entertaining though still dark, dramatic, or unperky. It also says "different dance moods" vs. any specific ones that aren't allowed.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    And I think some interest dance lifts involve swinging a partner around by legs? None come to mind but I can see what it looks like in my mind's eye.
    La Khok's pornographic-handbag-lift.

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    actually i am in favor of a minimium qualify score to get into the finals at worlds, why-some of the skaters in all disciplines need more work, they are a big bore to get me to watch-so that most of the time i just skip over watching them.
    what the isu should do in lieu of minimium qualifying score for the countries that have skaters who might not make it . is this--in the beginning of the skating season- have those skaters that didn't make it compete before the isu world technical panel and give them a whole year to work it out. so when they show up at euros/fc they might get the score they need to get into the qualify and into final round at worlds. it might take a few years but since the prosposal if passed don't begin until the 2011/2012 season . they can start now telling which country skaters need to step it up , and what they need exactly to get into final and or qualify round for that season if passed.
    they should have more "level b" assignments for the skaters that don't make it out of qualifying rounds and or give those skaters more input as to what they really need.

  16. #56
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    Ughh, my head hurts from trying to understand this stuff.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by taz'smum View Post
    My interpretation of the above, is that for the majority of Junior/Senior competitions the short dance will be used, but some B internationals may choose to use the pattern dance instead.
    The short dance, appears to just be the existing OD but 20 seconds longer.

    Does this mean that Juniors/Seniors will have to prepare a short dance and a set pattern dance?
    The way I interpreted it, is that novice isu events will use the pattern dance plus free dance. Juniors will use the short dance and free dance. Seniors will use the short dance and free dance or free dance only.

    Will the theme for the short dance be the original 60/70/80's theme, or will it be the viennese waltz?
    This should be confirmed with the ID technical communication, but it appears that this season, they are not using the theme option, but instead are using a rhythm option. Juniors will incorporate the Viennese Waltz along with an additional one or two rhythms (waltz, tango, foxtrot, quickstep).

    This is starting to look very messy, and no-one will be ready for the new season in time!
    It sounds like this was announced to coaches and officials following Worlds, so they were able to start preparing their teams back in March. While we may not know all the details, I think most of the coaches have followed up with their applicable country's leadership in getting all that information.
    Last edited by Tammi; 05-01-2010 at 04:06 PM.

  18. #58

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    Thank you Tammi!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammi View Post
    Juniors will incorporate the Viennese Waltz along with an additional one or two rhythms (waltz, tango, foxtrot, quickstep).
    The way the coaches at my daughter's rink have interpreted it is that the change of rythym is optional, so they are using just one piece of waltz music. They are working on the viennese waltz, but are not starting on the rest of the program, as they are waiting for the definitive rules in June.
    The FD is being worked on first, as the rules are much clearer for that.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by query5 View Post
    actually i am in favor of a minimium qualify score to get into the finals at worlds, why-some of the skaters in all disciplines need more work, they are a big bore to get me to watch-so that most of the time i just skip over watching them.
    Well, there are plenty of skaters who can easily achieve the minimum scores but are boring to watch. That isn't a good criterion for excluding people.

    what the isu should do in lieu of minimium qualifying score for the countries that have skaters who might not make it . is this--in the beginning of the skating season- have those skaters that didn't make it compete before the isu world technical panel and give them a whole year to work it out. so when they show up at euros/fc they might get the score they need to get into the qualify and into final round at worlds.
    Huh?
    As I understand it, they can use their best score from any international event in the current or preceding season.

    E.g., to be eligible for 2012 Euros, 4Cs, or Worlds, a high enough score at a fall 2010 or fall 2011 international competition would qualify them. But if it was from fall 2010 and then they don't reach that minimum again at any of the other events they compete in during 2011 and 2012, they will not be qualified for 2013 championships.

    So there's no need for a special extra event "in the beginning of the skating season- [to] have those skaters that didn't make it compete before the isu world technical panel and give them a whole year to work it out" -- they could use any senior B event or a junior event, including Junior Worlds, if they're age eligible.

    And just a tech panel wouldn't be able to certify the scores anyway -- the totals also include the GOEs and PCS that come from the judges.

    The skaters who have not made the minimums yet in their careers know what they have to work on -- rotate some double axels and triples and don't fall, or else do nice clean doubles and good and/or high-level spins and steps, and get their skating skills and other components up to a level worthy of scores in the 4s or higher.

    Skaters who already get PCS above 4 and already get credit for rotating double axels and easier triples are easily able to meet the minimums -- they just have to do all it in a fall competition at least once, and then keep doing it at the championships once they get to enter.

    they should have more "level b" assignments for the skaters that don't make it out of qualifying rounds and or give those skaters more input as to what they really need.
    Agreed. Right now most of the senior B events are in Europe, which means that skaters over 19 from other parts of the world who want to make themselves eligible for ISU championships would need to travel to Europe in the fall in hopes of making the minimum score that would allow them to enter 4Cs or Worlds later in the season or the next year.

    Younger skaters should stay junior until they achieve those scores.

    Might 4Cs federations who have a few skaters who can achieve those scores on their best days but not consistently (Australia, Mexico, Chinese Taipei) want to host open senior competitions to let their own skaters try to meet the minimums at home? Or could some of the big US and Canadian club competitions be internationalized so as to count for this purpose for seniors who compete there?

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    The age limit changes will dry out the junior level, IMO. Does this mean many junior pairs/teams will have to move up to senior this season? How many age eligible pairs/teams left for JGP this year?? I think almost all of the US junior pairs/teams won't be eligible for JGP??

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