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  1. #81
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    There's nothing wrong with choice. You have a choice. You can refuse to do moves and therefore not compete, or you can suck it up, do the moves and compete. Those are your options, and they aren't going to change.
    I'm sorry. I do not feel that this is a legitimate choice.

    And there are other options.....

    Look at it this way: At least you don't have to do FIGURES!!!!
    Good gosh!! No Way! Yikes!!

  2. #82
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    Ok. Let's take this in another direction. I do understand that the MITF thing is an "old horse" that's been beaten a million times....

    But I am honestly confused about the jumps especially at the Masters Junior/Senior level which is the highest level under adult so far (unless they add an "elite" for ex-pros which they haven't done so far.)

    This is incorrect. Good skating skills can make up for lack of jumping skills at the adult level, and good skating skills coupled with good jumping skills will give the edge to that skater over someone who doesn't have as good of skating skills
    I will admit that I am only judging by what is posted on youtube and have never attending adult nats in person so I can definitely be very wrong here.......But from what I saw on youtube, (and I am not going to name any names or reference any videos), the jumps were ..... shakey.....at best. Now, yes, there were some very nice spins, (but very few flying spins strangely. ) But, all in all, some nice spins. And very nice footwork, spirals and transitions. But, I'm sorry, for the most part, I didn't see the "good jumping skills" you are referring to. I just didn't see it. One lady did have a nice 2axel. She did have some very good jumping skills as well as spinning and overall skating ability. But she was definitely the exception, not the rule. If you want to double check me, put in "masters, senior, ice skating" in a search on youtube. I am not being mean and, as I said, I am only refering to the jumping skills. These are obviously very good skaters. But I just don't see the 2-2 combos and there are a lot of fall outs and touch downs and pops to singles at least going by what is posted to youtube. (And I'll admit that I only have these videos to judge this on, so I can be very wrong here.) But that is what it looks like to me.....

    Also, there is a male adult skater who posts here who has provided videos and he is capable of some nice 2-2 combos. But, again, I do believe he is an exception not the rule...

    My argument was that someone capable of "tricks" could possibly pull ahead on the strength of those tricks, even if other skaters had good "skating" ability due to the fact that most of the skaters (not all, but most) are so......weak....on the tricks that they are relying on skating ability (spirals, transitions, presentation) very heavily. It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone who was strong in the "trick" department was put in the mix with these skaters....... I wouldn't be so sure skating skills would necessarily carry the day (especially under IJS). That was my point. It is a legitimate observation. It would be interesting to try the experiment and see what happens.....
    Last edited by Firefly123; 05-31-2010 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Added final paragraph

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    I will admit that I am only judging by what is posted on youtube and have never attending adult nats in person so I can definitely be very wrong here.......But from what I saw on youtube, (and I am not going to name any names or reference any videos), the jumps were ..... shakey.....at best. Now, yes, there were some very nice spins, (but very few flying spins strangely. ) But, all in all, some nice spins. And very nice footwork, spirals and transitions. But, I'm sorry, for the most part, I didn't see the "good jumping skills" you are referring to. I just didn't see it.
    I'd suggest you get a subscription to icenetwork.com, so you can watch the whole, actual competition. I don't know what age category you would be---

    But I can tell you that a lady from my rink competed this year in Masters Junior/Senior I (the youngest group). She is a BEAUTIFUL skater, the kind you just can't take your eyes off when she skates. She also has jumps through double lutz, in combination, and they are very, very strong & good technique. She wasn't even in the top half of her group. Not because she didn't skate well, but because the whole group was just that good.

    That's the first thing. Secondly, you have to factor in the nerves of competition--unless someone is a 'nerves of steel' skater, generally you figure that the performance level drops about 25% in competition. You've posted that you are a nervous competitor, so figure that your performance also would suffer in competition.

    Thirdly, I'd HIGHLY recommend that you work with a choreographer who is an expert in IJS. Otherwise you stand a good chance of missing a lot of points just because of the choreography not taking advantage of everything it could.

    So I'm sorry, but yes, you are being pretty arrogant assuming that you'd sweep in and win it all, having never even competed as a figure skater yet. I've seen your jump/spin videos--they are okay, but there are some flaws that you'd get deductions/-GOE for under IJS. With this scoring system, it's no longer enough to simply "do" the jumps/tricks--you have to do them well in order to get full credit.

    So--Suck it up, get the moves tests under your belt, and then do some competing and see how it goes. You may win some, you may lose some--but you'll never know until you do it, and meanwhile you're just setting yourself up by sitting & comparing a few videos on youtube to what you *think* you'd be able to do in competition.
    Last edited by backspin; 05-31-2010 at 07:30 PM.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Yes, I think that is the whole crux of the problem. If the MITF are so good for skaters and help their skating skills so much, then why force them on the skaters, (which is what they are doing by requireing them on tests)? I would think that skaters, themselves, would be desperate to take them in order to improve their jumps and spins. And, as many members mentioned, if you did't require them, then (most) skaters simply wouldn't do them. But then I guess it could be argued that if most skaters felt that way then maybe that is how the sport should evolve.....in that direction.....rather than enforcing a discipline to prop up an artifically imposed standard.
    I really don't understand, other than your own stubbornness, why you think MITF are somehow separate from skating skills. You have to be able to use an edge and move to do jumps and spins. You have to be able to use an edge and move to do MITF.

    You also seem to be assuming that MITF are the only tests that are "forced" upon skaters. Last time I checked, there were USFS tests that also required skaters to do certain jumps and spins. Why is the test only "forced" when it's an MITF test?

  5. #85
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    So I'm sorry, but yes, you are being pretty arrogant assuming that you'd sweep in and win it all, having never even competed as a figure skater yet. I've seen your jump/spin videos--they are okay, but there are some flaws that you'd get deductions/-GOE for under IJS. With this scoring system, it's no longer enough to simply "do" the jumps/tricks--you have to do them well in order to get full credit.
    Well....I'm not necessarily referring to myself. It is a hypothetical argument based upon an observation I made watching videos posted on youtube of skaters in the junior/senior catagory. Admittedly, not all of the skaters were on these videos so this argument may very well be flawed. Until I attend adult nats and watch the event in person I really cannot say for sure. Fair enough.

    You also seem to be assuming that MITF are the only tests that are "forced" upon skaters. Last time I checked, there were USFS tests that also required skaters to do certain jumps and spins. Why is the test only "forced" when it's an MITF test?
    That is a good point. I guess it is because MITF doesn't have it's own catagory and FS does. I wouldn't object to separating the two and having separate tests for each division. I just object to forcing FS to take MITF in order to skate FS.......Why not just make a division for MITF if everyone loves it so much and drop it as a prerequsite for FS.......But then this is the same old dead stinky horse. Must stop beating the horse..... (Oh! Really cool emote!!)

  6. #86
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    post removed. never mind.

  7. #87
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    Well.....If you were going to compete in Senior MITF event I don't think you should have to pass the Senior FS. (That is really the equilivant.) But, of course, there is no Senior MITF event......That is kind of the point.

    And while I can understand (but not necessarily agree with) the idea that MITF is setting some sort of high standard for skaters who want to compete internationally (world and Olympic level) this is really an argument for the standard tract skaters, not the adults. Why not drop the MITF requirement for adults as it is unduly prohibitive since most adults are not headed into international competitions or have any hope of representing the US at the Olympics. Also, I would argue that MITF is not the only way to ensure a high standard. Frankly, it depends upon WHAT you are basing the standard upon. Should it be quads and difficult tricks (as the Plushinko/Stojko camp would argue)? Or should it be art and transitions? It really despends upon what you want that standard to be....and that is, to a large degree, a matter of opinion. The opinion of the people in power is the standard they want to uphold. Exactly what the standard you want to uphold is reflects your own attitude/opinion. Standards can and do change. (Oh! I truely love this emote!!)
    Last edited by Firefly123; 05-31-2010 at 09:08 PM. Reason: spelling

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post

    I will admit that I am only judging by what is posted on youtube and have never attending adult nats in person so I can definitely be very wrong here.......But from what I saw on youtube, (and I am not going to name any names or reference any videos), the jumps were ..... shakey.....at best. But, I'm sorry, for the most part, I didn't see the "good jumping skills" you are referring to. I just didn't see it. One lady did have a nice 2axel. She did have some very good jumping skills as well as spinning and overall skating ability. But she was definitely the exception, not the rule. If you want to double check me, put in "masters, senior, ice skating" in a search on youtube. I am not being mean and, as I said, I am only refering to the jumping skills. These are obviously very good skaters. But I just don't see the 2-2 combos and there are a lot of fall outs and touch downs and pops to singles at least going by what is posted to youtube. (And I'll admit that I only have these videos to judge this on, so I can be very wrong here.) But that is what it looks like to me.....

    Also, there is a male adult skater who posts here who has provided videos and he is capable of some nice 2-2 combos. But, again, I do believe he is an exception not the rule...
    I agree with backspin...I don't think these youtube videos you refer to provide an accurate glimpse of Adult Master's Jr/Sr...I have seen some videos and then watched the skaters in person and I can say that they are all so much more impressive in person. Their jumps are much better than "shakey at best"

    Also, it makes a huge difference if you are watching a competitive program or watching practice. Pretty much all of the Champ Master's Jr/Sr women are capable of 2/2 combos and strong smooth double jumps in practice even if they do not perform up to par in the competition.(and all of the men are...this year there were skaters placing 5-6 in the mens that did multiple 2/2 combos) Yet these skills don't always transfer to a competitive program. It is way different skating into a double lutz 2 minutes into a program than just skating into a jump in practice.

    I know I can do a double sal / double loop in my sleep, but I managed to screw it up in competition twice this year...these things happen, but the jumping skills of these skaters are better than you describe.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Well.....If you were going to compete in Senior MITF event I don't think you should have to pass the Senior FS. (That is really the equilivant.) But, of course, there is no Senior MITF event......That is kind of the point.
    A more accurate analogy would be school figures. Throughout the 1990s, there were separate events for school figures and freestyle at novice through senior level. For a while there were separate events at lower levels and adult levels as well. It was not necessary to pass the corresponding freestyle tests in order to compete in figures, or vice versa.

    During the period of 1880s-1980s, singles skating consisted of both figures and freestyle. Pairs was only freestyle, with a compulsory short program more than a decade before the singles had one. Ice dance had compulsory dances. Many pair and dance skaters did learn school figures when they were learning to skate, because everyone is a single skater before committing to a specific discipline, but unlike singles competitors they weren't required to test figures to compete in the partner disciplines.

    MITF tests are not specific to any one discipline of figure skating and are not a discipline in themselves. They're just basic skating. They're designed to establish the basics for all disciplines.

    School figures (although it's not an official competition any more) is a subset of basic skating skills performed in very precise and exacting patterns.

    Singles skating (divided by sex) is basic skating plus jumps and spins.

    Pair skating is a team of one male and one female doing basic skating plus pair tricks and side-by-side singles tricks.

    Ice dancing is a team of one male and one female doing basic skating plus specific kinds of musical interpretation/dancing in almost constant physical contact.

    Synchronized skating is teams of many skaters doing basic skating in formations and in almost constant physical contact.

    Artistic or interpretive skating (more of a fun side discipline than a championship event) is basic skating plus musical interpretation and theatrical qualities. Theatre on Ice is the same in concept for large groups. These are not really part of the sport as sport, but something fun for skaters to do on the side or instead.

    Notice that there is not any discipline that is only about the special skills for that discipline without also involving basic skating.

    All of these are now available to adults as well as kids.

    The events are divided by skill level based on the quality of basic skating, with limits or minimum expectations for the specialized moves of that discipline where applicable.

    Beginning skaters, whether adults or kids, start out by learning the beginning techniques of basic skating, and then as they move up in skill level they may specialize in one or more specific disciplines and develop the special skills related to that discipline, but they still need to keep improving their basic skating.

    There are many thousands of figure skaters who test and compete. For female singles skaters at least, there are thousands of skaters in the US at some specific age and skill levels. To make the competitions meaningful, the events are divided according to minimum skill level of basic skating, as measured by MITF tests. Age and jump limits break things down further but are secondary to the basic skating.

    Frankly, it depends upon WHAT you are basing the standard upon. Should it be quads and difficult tricks (as the Plushinko/Stojyko camp would argue)? Or should it be art and transitions? ...Standards can and do change.
    The primary standard in all disciplines has always been the basic skating. That is not going to change.

    How much difficult tricks or highlight transitions or above-the-blade artistry should count in comparison to each other or even in comparison to basic skating may fluctuate. But there is never going to be a discipline of figure skating where basic skating is not the most important criterion.

    It's not ice jumping. It's not ice ballet. It's not ice art. It's ice skating.

  10. #90
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    I don't think these youtube videos you refer to provide an accurate glimpse of Adult Master's Jr/Sr...I have seen some videos and then watched the skaters in person and I can say that they are all so much more impressive in person. Their jumps are much better than "shakey at best"
    I will defer to your judgement, then, since I have never seen these skaters in person. (I hope to attend this year and will have a better understanding of this seeing things first hand.) Meanwhile I will try to get the scoresheets off of the USFS site. Maybe the best routines were not posted. (This is also very possible.)

    Though from what you have described and from what I have seen from the video I am interested in how a skaters can manage the excellent quality edgework needed to pass junior/senior MITF tests and still have difficulty in preforming 2-2 combos (under pressure) and, it seems, any triples at all. Also they seem to avoid flying spins (generally)....It has been ground into me multiple times that the MITF are the basis of all these "ticks" and that it is absolutely necessary to be proficient in them in able to preform the ticks.....But here we have people who are obviously proficient in the moves yet seem to have problems with the tricks (at least when under pressure). These are your very highest level adult skaters with excellent skating (edgework) skills. What gives? I mean with that kind of edge quality (the same as demonstrated by the standard level skaters at this level) they should find this stuff a piece of cake, right?

    As I have pointed out several times, if edge quality were all that crucial in determining freeskating ability, then Tanith Belbin and Meryl Davis should both be capable of quads (easily)...But they obvioulsy aren't......So something else is at work here. And it is that "something else" (athletic ability? physical strength? I'm not even sure what it is, to be completely honest with you, but it is... something). And whatever this mysterous "tallent" is, that is being insulted and dismissed here. This is what bothers me.

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    Beginning skaters, whether adults or kids, start out by learning the beginning techniques of basic skating, and then as they move up in skill level they may specialize in one or more specific disciplines and develop the special skills related to that discipline, but they still need to keep improving their basic skating.

    There are many thousands of figure skaters who test and compete. For female singles skaters at least, there are thousands of skaters in the US at some specific age and skill levels. To make the competitions meaningful, the events are divided according to minimum skill level of basic skating, as measured by MITF tests. Age and jump limits break things down further but are secondary to the basic skating.
    Fair enough. OK. So since the adult events are so carefully crafted to avoid anyone doing "excessively" difficult jumps (and, to a point, spins), then you would not have a problem with someone who for whatever freaky reason was fully capable of tricks without the necessary basic skating skills. (Yup, it's possible. Sorry. But for ex-rollers and gymnasts, it is.) .....So you wouldn't have a problem with a person like this entering an extremely low level event (say, Bronze) and skating it. (After all, they will be limited in what tricks they may preform and, theoretically, their basic skating may not even be up to the other skaters.) No problem with this on your end? I'm beginning to rethink my idea of "ethical".....

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    I will admit that I am only judging by what is posted on youtube and have never attending adult nats in person so I can definitely be very wrong here.......But from what I saw on youtube, (and I am not going to name any names or reference any videos), the jumps were ..... shakey.....at best. Now, yes, there were some very nice spins, (but very few flying spins strangely. ) But, all in all, some nice spins. And very nice footwork, spirals and transitions. But, I'm sorry, for the most part, I didn't see the "good jumping skills" you are referring to.
    I've been to every Adult Mids since 2003, and five Adult Nationals. I can honestly say that you are wrong about this. Especially amongst the masters ladies - those ladies are getting stronger and stronger each year. So are the golds, for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by backspin View Post
    I'd suggest you get a subscription to icenetwork.com, so you can watch the whole, actual competition.
    Word. This is the next best thing to being there.

  13. #93
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    No $ for Ice Network subscription. But I will definitely check out the scoresheets on the USFS site. In fact, will do that now...

    I've been to every Adult Mids since 2003, and five Adult Nationals. I can honestly say that you are wrong about this. Especially amongst the masters ladies - those ladies are getting stronger and stronger each year. So are the golds, for that matter.
    I will defer to your judgement since I was not there in person. You must understand that I am only judging by what I see on youtube. I will check out the scoresheets and write more later.

    And, of coure, as mr7740 wrote, it is much harder to preform under pressure and with the cardio demands of a full routine. So that has to be considered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post

    Though from what you have described and from what I have seen from the video I am interested in how a skaters can manage the excellent quality edgework needed to pass junior/senior MITF tests and still have difficulty in preforming 2-2 combos (under pressure) and, it seems, any triples at all. Also they seem to avoid flying spins (generally)....It has been ground into me multiple times that the MITF are the basis of all these "ticks" and that it is absolutely necessary to be proficient in them in able to preform the ticks.....But here we have people who are obviously proficient in the moves yet seem to have problems with the tricks (at least when under pressure). These are your very highest level adult skaters with excellent skating (edgework) skills. What gives? I mean with that kind of edge quality (the same as demonstrated by the standard level skaters at this level) they should find this stuff a piece of cake, right?

    And whatever this mysterous "tallent" is, that is being insulted and dismissed here. This is what bothers me.
    This is a silly argument because clearly good edges and turns do not automatically equal good jumps and you know that since you claim to have poor enough basic skating not to be able to pass mitf. And this mysterious talent you refer to is not being dismissed just because MITF are required by USFS to pass freestyle tests. Yes good basic skating skills form a groundwork where good technique can be built.
    I mean many adults have to deal with injuries and limited practice time...from my experience the jumps are the first thing to declne in quality while basic skating skills remain. At a competition if the ice sucks, my skates feel off, or I am low on energy my jumps are going to be affected more than my rockers or counters...and stamina plays more of a role in successful jumping in a program. I mean look at all the standard level skaters who lose jumps when they their body changes. Jumping needs very specific movements that can be easily affected or thwarted by many things. No one is discounting the ability and skill it takes to be able to do doubles and double/double combos. It is valued and good jumps are given proper credit.

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    Problem is if you are a "freak" whose edgework went before your jumps (or was never there to begin with), then you are prohibited from using those jumps, (due to restrictions by event level and the MITF is required to move up in event level and use more difficult jumps), but it does not work the other way around. It is just fine if they jumps go because it "happens to all of us." Can you at least agree that it is one-sided? That you are "forcing" the edgework on the jumpers, but not the other way around. (gkelly admits this, but defends it by claiming it is "basic skating" skill, so that makes it ok. At least in her book. )

    Oh! I found the results and the scoresheets on icenetwork.com but I won't post a link because names are involved. I will take a look at them and maybe comment....... But I don't want to use names, so please don't use names if you write back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    (gkelly admits this, but defends it by claiming it is "basic skating" skill, so that makes it ok. At least in her book. )
    gkelly is saying quite articulately what most of us here seem to think, and IMHO how most of the skating community would view the importance of basic skating skills to the sport of competitive ice skating. So please don't paint her as some nut who is twisting reality to suit her own little anti-you agenda.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    So you wouldn't have a problem with a person like this entering an extremely low level event (say, Bronze) and skating it. (After all, they will be limited in what tricks they may preform and, theoretically, their basic skating may not even be up to the other skaters.) No problem with this on your end? I'm beginning to rethink my idea of "ethical".....
    I think if you're honestly trying to cross over into ice skating and willing to work your way through the process, go ahead, test to bronze, enter a bronze event with a program including moves that are legal in bronze, and see how you do. Continue to work on your skating and pass the tests as you improve, and move up to silver and gold as you're ready. You can skate up at nonqual competitions so you can start using harder jumps and longer programs sooner.

    At small competitions, your results determined solely by whether the other skater or few skaters who enter the same event happen to be much older and at the bottom of the bronze or silver skill range or much younger and almost ready for the next level. I expect you'll do just great in bronze, but silver might depend on who you're up against.

    Or you can enter adult sectionals or nationals where you'll get to compete against your age group in a more representative field, but you'd have to have passed the tests for that level.

    Have you tried putting together a program? Why not try a silver-length program with axels and single jumps and get some feedback on that. You could then use the same program with doubles replacing some of the singles if you can enter a prejuv or open juv event against teenagers of about your skill level.

    This will give you an idea of where you really stand in terms of overall freestyle skill.

    You may very well find that a 2-minute program is enough of a challenge at first and you need a few years to work your way up to a masters level program quite aside from the test requirements.

    If you win a lot, try to move up. Take the tests seriously and work on them in good faith. The sooner you pass them, the sooner you can add more doubles. If you really can't pass them, the reasons will probably show up in your skating.

    However, if you stay in bronze for years and keep winning because you just refuse to work on and sign up for the tests, you will alienate other skaters. And you'll frustrate yourself because you won't be allowed to include your doubles.

    But as long as you're clearly making the effort to work on balancing out your skills and move to the appropriate level, I don't think doing a few events at lower levels, using elements that are legal at those levels, to get used to the process is unethical.

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    Have you tried putting together a program? Why not try a silver-length program with axels and single jumps and get some feedback on that. You could then use the same program with doubles replacing some of the singles if you can enter a prejuv or open juv event against teenagers of about your skill level.
    I am 40 years old. It is embarrassing to skate against teenagers. Do any of you guys really want to skate against teens? Seriously. I'm not "afraid" to skate against them, but it's kind of embarrassing.....Don't you think?

    However, if you stay in bronze for years and keep winning because you just refuse to work on and sign up for the tests, you will alienate other skaters. And you'll frustrate yourself because you won't be allowed to include your doubles.
    Oh, I think most are pretty alienated already.

    OK. This just might work.
    Last edited by Firefly123; 05-31-2010 at 11:12 PM.

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    So please don't paint her as some nut who is twisting reality to suit her own little anti-you agenda.
    Um....It's not an anti-me agenda....But I do find this requirement "unduly prohibitive" and so do MANY of the parents (and lower level skaters I have talked to). We would like to be included too. Many of us simply find your "standard" set just a little too high, but want to stay in the sport without "sucking it up." So sorry. And, no, I don't think gkelly is a nut. But I do think she is a very intelligent representative of the system.....

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    The lower level MITF tests are not hard. I passed pre-pre MITF wayyyy before I was ready to work on my axel and it was pretty simple. The preliminary MITF field test was fairly simple too and the pre-juv isn't bad either I'm working on it now.

    The only thing that's annoying about them is the cost and the cost of taking my coach and getting the time off of school and work or whatever. Not the actual skating, but I know its something I have to do them and I'm not gonna try and "fight the system" to make it go away.

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