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  1. #81
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    Well I had publicly wished S/B would get new choreographers this season, but this is not they way I wanted it... I was hoping more for Chris Dean or something.... Sigh!

    Hopefully S/Z can work on improving SamBates speed. Hopefully they will leave the rest of their beautiful technique alone, though!
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  2. #82
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    I don't exactly see all the Shpilband teams looking alike either. The obvious V/M and D/W comparison of course, but Emily has such great technique and talent..i don't think ( or certaintly don't hope) her beautiful toe-pointing qualities will be destroyed by S/Z The Shibus have always reminded me of V/M in a way, good skating skills, but most obviously the way in which they use their knees. They need to grow more in height to allow them to add more difficulty in their step sequences such as holds and changes in direction with ease to make look less awkward. S/B already have the talent it takes to be a contender, and it's just a matter of working on precision and laying everything together. Wow the depth of US ice dance

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    Well I had publicly wished S/B would get new choreographers this season, but this is not they way I wanted it... I was hoping more for Chris Dean or something.... Sigh!

    Hopefully S/Z can work on improving SamBates speed. Hopefully they will leave the rest of their beautiful technique alone, though!
    Well, where did they get all the good technique? I heard all the bad critiques about their former coaches, should we give them some credits for "S/B's beautiful techniques"? It's sad that no other coaches were given any credit except for S/Z, the magicians!!

  4. #84
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    The critique is about the music choices and the choreography.

    Samuelson/Bates were doing fine technically.

    Although S/Z are by far the best technical coaches in the world.

  5. #85
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    I don't get where all the Z/S bashing comes from...Why would anyone worry that they'll starve Emily or ruin the team's pointed toes ? It strikes me as bizarre, when none of Z/S's other couples show evidence of these problems.

    Their choreography can hardly be called generic..it all seems very individually crafted to each couple , utilizing a wide range of music choices.

    S/B will only benefit from this move. Krylova / Camerlengo might have been an OK choice, too, but Z/S are right next door, so to speak. S/B already have friends in their school, so will feel at home , and if you can go to the current top coaches, why wouldn't you?

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    I don't get where all the Z/S bashing comes from...Why would anyone worry that they'll starve Emily or ruin the team's pointed toes ? It strikes me as bizarre, when none of Z/S's other couples show evidence of these problems.

    Their choreography can hardly be called generic..it all seems very individually crafted to each couple , utilizing a wide range of music choices.

    S/B will only benefit from this move. Krylova / Camerlengo might have been an OK choice, too, but Z/S are right next door, so to speak. S/B already have friends in their school, so will feel at home , and if you can go to the current top coaches, why wouldn't you?
    Not everyone thinks that Phantom of the Opera, or Mahler was art at its greatest. Davis/Whites OD was great and very original, but that was one program. Liked Virtue/Moir's free dance two years back too, but feel the star crossed lovers is quite overdone by them now.

    I liked Virtue/Moir's OD and agreed with them winning the OD at Worlds/Olympics, but I liked it mainly due to Scott and not really due to thinking it was this great original program.

    Not to mention the fact that both Virtue/ Moir and Davis/White do the same program layouts every year...

    And as for none of Igor's teams having problems with things like pointed toes etc. I suggest you look again at Meryl now and Tanith Belbin (when she was with them. And get back to us. Virtue/Moir are fine, but I think that can be attributed to previous coaches. So I do think that Samuel/Bates will be fine in that area.

    This doesn't mean Marina/Igor don't have their good qualities, they obviously do. But I think that all of these good teams is going to hurt ice dance in awhile. I think Samuel/Bates would be better off with a good coach and good choregraphy who could devote a lot of attention on just them.

  7. #87

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    Exactly bek, you said it better than I would've.

  8. #88
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    I don't get it either, it's not like V/M are regressing technically, they've always had the right packaging, so I don't think Emily will be ruined at all. For example I think Zuerlein, and both Shibus have very good technical elements, but when people think Zoueva/Shpilband they like to think of Tanith and how she started out. But still, there was Ben Agosto, who imo was always still a great skater with Zoueva/Shpilband.
    S/B are not like them at all, and are already rather impressive for their age. I'm just happy to see them get better programs than last season.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    Their choreography can hardly be called generic..it all seems very individually crafted to each couple , utilizing a wide range of music choices.
    The programs are usually very open and very little is going on in between the required elements. Z/S are changing ID into stroking into required elements and that's what is totally killing the discipline for me.

    Z/S also usually show a total lack of understanding of the music they are choreographing to. It's usually splits and smiles, even if the music evokes a sombre or dramatic mood.

    V/M's last FD was the best example of that. Changing a piece as haunting and sad as this into a cheesy Hallmark romance is quite an accomplishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Davis/Whites OD was great and very original, but that was one program.
    I think it had way too much posing for one program and it was totally unsuited for that particular team. It was a dance that required a lot of energy and attack, whilst Meryl is much better in subdued pieces.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The programs are usually very open and very little is going on in between the required elements. Z/S are changing ID into stroking into required elements and that's what is totally killing the discipline for me.

    Z/S also usually show a total lack of understanding of the music they are choreographing to. It's usually splits and smiles, even if the music evokes a sombre or dramatic mood.

    V/M's last FD was the best example of that. Changing a piece as haunting and sad as this into a cheesy Hallmark romance is quite an accomplishment.
    There can be more than one way to interpret a piece of music. Maybe you didn't like or "get" V&M's interpretation, but clearly some people (fans and judges alike) did. I know a lot of people didn't like or were annoyed by S&S's interpretation of "Send in the Clowns" that you thought was brilliant (as did I), so not every interpretation will appeal to everyone. I know certain pieces of music and songs can evoke different emotions in me at different times, and I don't think there's always a "right" answer as to whether a piece is happy or sad.

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    It's true that music can strike people differently,and I don't find V/M's Mahler particularly somber. It might be , or it might be dreamy..all depends what you do with it. The music itself is not "Death in Venice"..it was just used for the film.

    Send in the Clowns, on the other hand is about something. It has a lyric , and it's really nothing to do with clowns. I would have enjoyed the choreography much more without the ridiculous clown costumes ( not to mention the dreadful face paint).

    I think Z/S exhibit some of the most sophisticated use of music in skating today..so I'm not saying people don't have reasons or rationalizations for being against them..I'm just saying I can't agree ..or sometimes even relate.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    There can be more than one way to interpret a piece of music.
    Why does Zueva only see one then?

    That's exactly the problem.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Z/S also usually show a total lack of understanding of the music they are choreographing to. It's usually splits and smiles, even if the music evokes a sombre or dramatic mood.
    I don't recall Meryl and Charlie smiling much during POTO or S&D or during Eleanor Rigby, all programs that evoked a somber or dramatic mood.
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  14. #94

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    Ugh. They'll be one of the clones now. I'd hoped they switch to Krylova or Platov or get some of Dean's choreo.

  15. #95

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    to all the negativism on this thread. I'm one who really enjoys S/Z teams (all of them) and am happy that S/B will join them. I think S/Z are great coaches and the results speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall
    I think Z/S exhibit some of the most sophisticated use of music in skating today..so I'm not saying people don't have reasons or rationalizations for being against them..I'm just saying I can't agree ..or sometimes even relate.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratfall View Post
    Their choreography can hardly be called generic..it all seems very individually crafted to each couple , utilizing a wide range of music choices.
    Actually my exact problem with S&Z is that the programs don't seem crafted to each team. The FDs are all pretty interchangeable for the most part when looking at the choreography.

    For example look at any slow section of D&W's past few FD's, and compare it to the slow sections of Mallory & Rand's FD that S&Z did for them this year. Pretty much the same connecting moves, holds, highlights, composition, TES elements, etc.

    No matter what the music choice, I know what a S/Z program will look like choreographically. Yet D&W's programs get nines for choreography on the PCS and M&R would get like fives.

  17. #97

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    I totally agree, casken.

  18. #98
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    De gustibus.

    FWIW, I like S/Z choreography, I like the way they coach, I like the way they treat their teams, I like the way they fit the music to the team, I like the way they keep inventing new interesting and haaaaaard lifts, and I freely admit I'm a fan. Sure, I can tell in the first few seconds it is a S/Z program, but so what? I can tell in the first paragraph it's a Hemmingway book, or at a glance it's a Van Gogh painting, etc. Having a style doesn't mean you don't have scope.

    But yes, it is boring to be a fan and it is much more fashionable to be a "critic".

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadBob View Post
    De gustibus.

    FWIW, I like S/Z choreography, I like the way they coach, I like the way they treat their teams, I like the way they fit the music to the team, I like the way they keep inventing new interesting and haaaaaard lifts, and I freely admit I'm a fan. Sure, I can tell in the first few seconds it is a S/Z program, but so what? I can tell in the first paragraph it's a Hemmingway book, or at a glance it's a Van Gogh painting, etc. Having a style doesn't mean you don't have scope.

    But yes, it is boring to be a fan and it is much more fashionable to be a "critic".
    I totally agree, BBB.
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  20. #100
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    " Having a style doesn't mean you don't have scope." ...Wish I'd said that..

    Oh. I just did...then I wish I'd said it first.

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