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  1. #1
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    question about spiral sequences under new rules

    I have an extremely shallow knowledge of figure skating and its rules, from what I understand the new rules themselves change frequently right? what I'm confused about is how much have they changed regarding levels from back in the early 2000's to now. basically I'm confused about how some skaters with amazing spirals were given level 3 spirals back around the time the new rules were instated (which were considered very high and excellent) but now some ppl with subpar spirals are given level 4 spirals? O_O;; I'm hoping there was just a change in ranking levels or something

    sorry if this is the wrong place to post, it's a question I've been wondering for awhile.

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    For the first two seasons of the new system (2003 Grand Prix, and full 2004-05 season), there were only three levels of elements -- Level 3 was the highest possible.

    Then they added a fourth level, so level 4 is the highest possible.

    Does that answer your question?

    There have also been some other changes in the rules for spiral sequences -- e.g., what counts as a feature and what doesn't, how many spiral positions are allowed and how long they have to be held -- during the first few years of the system, although they have been the same for the past several years now.


    Also, levels are based on the number of "features" that the element contains, not on the quality, which is reflected in the grade of execution. So it's possible for an excellent spiral sequence to be classified as level 1 because it doesn't meet the criteria for higher levels and to receive higher GOE, and for a mediocre spiral sequence to meet the criteria for level 4 but not deserve positive GOE.

    Keep in mind also that good body line and superior flexibility are only one of several possible criteria for positive GOE. So skaters with mediocre body line might still deserve positive GOE because of strengths on the other criteria.

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    thank you very much, that answered all of my questions regarding this issue thoroughly

    as I thought though, I feel some skaters are overscored in this regard. it's true there are other aspects to a great spiral than just extension or body line, such as speed. but it's always possible to have both speed and great extension. judges should leave more room and have higher standards >O don't mind my little rant lol

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    From what I can gather basically it doesn't have to look pretty. Ha as long as u can contort your body and hold it for a certain amount of seconds ur good.

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    I'm sure they also put into consideration steadiness, control of edge, and speed =/ wish they would leave the +2's GOE and up to actual beautiful spirals though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    There have also been some other changes in the rules for spiral sequences -- e.g., what counts as a feature and what doesn't, how many spiral positions are allowed and how long they have to be held -- during the first few years of the system, although they have been the same for the past several years now.
    Actually, the spiral sequence rules have changed every single season, even over the past several years. These rule changes have gradually brought the difficulty of the level 3 and 4 spiral sequences more in line with that of the spins, and closer (although still not as difficult) to that of the step sequences.

    Changes made between 2007 and 2010:
    - Limited the number of spiral positions to 3, so that all level features had to be completed in just 3 positions.
    - Took away the feature level for the fan spiral unless it was performed with an inverted torso and/or extreme flexibility.
    - 6-second hold added as a feature
    - Change of edge must be completed within 1 meter of ice on the change-edge spiral
    - Second difficult variation now needs to be significantly different from the first, not just on a different foot.

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    The proposal for 2010/2011 is that spirals for ladies SP (and also the other StSq in men SP) will have no levels but all of them the same SOV (Scale of Values) and Judges will be only GOEing them (from -3 to +3).

    So we will see soon.

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    Yes, they're tired of the cookie cutter level 4 spiral sequence that we see over and over again. Anyone can get a level 4, really, so the levels have become pointless and just made the spiral sequences uncreative (save for a few innovators who have refused to take the easy way out and do vary from the norm). Taking away the level requirements will allow skaters to choose any style of spiral that best suits their choreo and focus on quality rather than the easiest way to SpSq4.

  9. #9
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    Great! Now if only they could somehow get rid of required spiral sequences in the LP or maybe let them do individual spirals throughout the routine and average the GOE or something if they're that desperate to keep the spirals as another element to put on the score sheet.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Great! Now if only they could somehow get rid of required spiral sequences in the LP or maybe let them do individual spirals throughout the routine and average the GOE or something if they're that desperate to keep the spirals as another element to put on the score sheet.
    Sorry my wrong interpretations. Short Programmes would be less of one element (SpSq for ladies and StSq for men - if the lady is going for spirals in the SP, the execution would be rewarded in transitions) , what I was posting was applying for the free programmes.

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    ^ I thought that was just a rumor. But it's true?!?!?! I love spirals and that's the only reason why I watch the ladies (some ladies at least).

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    ^ I thought that was just a rumor. But it's true?!?!?! I love spirals and that's the only reason why I watch the ladies (some ladies at least).
    in the past year or so that I started to watch skating again I've noticed most ladies do contortionist looking spirals while holding their foot. they're all very similar and unattractive O_O; save for a few

    spirals used to be one of my favorite elements though. when sasha cohen or michelle kwan did them <3

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    That's true. Most skaters don't do proper spirals a-la Yuna Kim... But for those who can, they're just beautiful.

    I thing I never understood is that many ladies can do split jumps (full split) and biellman spins (meaning they need good flexibility to do it), but they can barely get above they're hip in the spiral. Does anyone know why? It just doesn't make sense to me. For example, Joannie can do a full split yet her classic back spiral barely gets over her hip.

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    no offense, yuna is a spectacular skater but her spiral is one of the few things I don't like about her. she has good speed on it though..

    and I totally share ur confusion over some ladies having proper flexibility yet bad spirals....if I'm going to speculate as a non-skater I think it's cos doing a split jump is very brief, and as for the biellman - that has the assistance of the skater's hand in achieving the position. with a spiral you have to keep the free leg extended independently and for an extended period of time while keeping your skate edge steady

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by oubik View Post
    The proposal for 2010/2011 is that spirals for ladies SP (and also the other StSq in men SP) will have no levels but all of them the same SOV (Scale of Values) and Judges will be only GOEing them (from -3 to +3).

    So we will see soon.
    YES YES YES!!!!

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    but do spirals still have to be done in "sequences" - I mean do you have to do 3 in succession? I remember in the 90's some skaters just did one or two positions and put them into the program where it would fit with the music. I prefer if they were just judged this way, otherwise it's so forced

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    I have a question, how do judges factor GOE? I'm always confused because I look at scoring sheets and see a bunch of +2s for GOE and then in the GOE column it's like 0.8. Like for Mirai at Worlds, all 9 judges gave her +3 for her layback spin, but then in the GOE column it said 1.5. Why is it this way? If all the judges gave her +3, shouldn't she get +3 instead of +1.5?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    I have a question, how do judges factor GOE? I'm always confused because I look at scoring sheets and see a bunch of +2s for GOE and then in the GOE column it's like 0.8. Like for Mirai at Worlds, all 9 judges gave her +3 for her layback spin, but then in the GOE column it said 1.5. Why is it this way? If all the judges gave her +3, shouldn't she get +3 instead of +1.5?
    Look at the Scale of Values.
    The judges don't factor it -- the computer program does.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    That's true. Most skaters don't do proper spirals a-la Yuna Kim... But for those who can, they're just beautiful.

    I thing I never understood is that many ladies can do split jumps (full split) and biellman spins (meaning they need good flexibility to do it), but they can barely get above they're hip in the spiral. Does anyone know why? It just doesn't make sense to me. For example, Joannie can do a full split yet her classic back spiral barely gets over her hip.
    Split jumps and Bielmanns take flexibility, yes, but it takes an additional amount of SERIOUS strength in the butt muscles and back to hold/push your leg up. And you have to have flexibility way beyond 180 degrees to get a spiral that's 180 degrees.

    Also, we've been spoiled by a few super flexible skaters to think that spiral = splits (180 degrees), when the edging and body position and steadiness of the blade on the ice are all tremendously important parts of a spiral. And I would hardly call this or this "barely above hip level."

  20. #20
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    Okay so it's not barely, but they aren't the full splits they could be capable of But in my opinion, the leg should at least be a tad bit higher with their flexibility (Biellmans and full splits).

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