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Thread: Mao News !

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    I think that is pretty much a leap. If trained properly, one doesn't (or shouldn't) have an adverse affect on the other.
    Well it depends to what degree she does ballet. Serious ballet and serious skating don't go together. When I was 12 or so my ballet teacher and skating coach both made me choose one, as I couldn't do both seriously and not have one affect the other.

    A lot of skating moves are done turned in (like spirals) that ballet need turn out for. In genera, turn out in skating is BAD, and ballet dancers tend to turn out for everything (like spins, in air jump positions that can lead to wraps, etc etc...).

    Also turns are done completely differently (spotting, etc...) and doing the two at the same time is very confusing.

    I'm one to think serious skaters shouldn't do too much ballet. One can learn elegance and musicality without it, and there are other, more easily "combined" dance forms such as jazz or lyrical, that would be less obtrusive to skating technique than ballet.

    Just my opinion. A LITTLE ballet never hurt anyone, but too much ballet isn't good for skaters.

  2. #62
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    Someone has pointed out in another forum that Mishin is teaching his girls 3A. I am not sure if Mishin is just probing the possibility of it or he has made the commitment to 3A for the girls. Hence, I think it is rather pointless to argue for or against it at this point.

    However, generally speaking, 3A is a very costly gamble. It would be a near impossibility for girls to hit 3A fully rotated (or within the allowance of 1/4 rotation) unless they have a certain physique, and the Russian girls can easily grow out of the size for it. Tuktamysheva is a speed jumper. It will be very hard to control the energy necessary for 3A from the speed, especially when her body gets more mature.

    It is one thing to learn a jump. It is quite another to master it so as to execute it with consistency. Then, it becomes a career long struggle to keep it competition-ready. 3A requires huge investment when you consider the practice time for each stage.

    Tuktamysheva can use the time on her other triples and combinations to keep them consistent before she hits the first growth spurt. Once the consistency is achieved, then she can try 3A. I heard a simple rhetoric that "she is only so young, which is why she does not have consistency." Age is not a real factor for consistency. It is just that you would have more practice to establish consistency in your jumps as you grow older. But, the real factor is the amount of practice, not age itself. She needs more practice on them if she cannot land them consistently.

    It seems Mishin wants his last masterpiece if he has made the real commitment to 3A. All the conventional wisdom suggests that the U.S. and Japan should be happy with his attempt as it is more likely that 3A proves to be a waste of time for the Russian girls. Even worse, it can backfire and mess up some jump mechanics for them.

    If under-rotation is strictly enforced, a winning layout for ladies may be 3Lz, 3F, 3Lz-2, 3F-2, 2A-3, etc. (obviously with correct jump edges). GoE may prove to be critical. I am having a hard time to envision another girl other than Yuna hitting 3Lz-3T of a highest quality in terms of athleticism and aesthetic when UR is strictly called. If Tuktamysheva or any Russian kid can hit 3Lz-3T consistently in Sochi, it is highly likely that the kid is going to be the gold medalist.
    Last edited by key65man; 04-05-2010 at 03:29 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    Someone has pointed out in another forum that Mishin is teaching his girls 3A. I am not sure if Mishin is just probing the possibility of it or he has made the commitment to 3A for the girls. Hence, I think it is rather pointless to argue for or against it at this point.

    However, generally speaking, 3A is a very costly gamble. It would be a near impossibility for girls to hit 3A fully rotated (or within the allowance of 1/4 rotation) unless they have a certain physique, and the Russian girls can easily grow out of the size for it. Tuktamysheva is a speed jumper. It will be very hard to control the energy necessary for 3A from the speed, especially when her body gets more mature.

    It is one thing to learn a jump. It is quite another to master it so as to execute it with consistency. Then, it becomes a career long struggle to keep it competition-ready. 3A requires huge investment when you consider the practice time for each stage.

    Tuktamysheva can use the time on her other triples and combinations to keep them consistent before she hits the first growth spurt. Once the consistency is achieved, then she can try 3A. I heard a simple rhetoric that "she is only so young, which is why she does not have consistency." Age is not a real factor for consistency. It is just that you would have more practice to establish consistency in your jumps as you grow older. But, the real factor is the amount of practice, not age itself. She needs more practice on them if she cannot land them consistently.

    It seems Mishin wants his last masterpiece if he has made the real commitment to 3A. All the conventional wisdom suggests that the U.S. and Japan should be happy with his attempt as it is more likely that 3A proves to be a waste of time for the Russian girls. Even worse, it can backfire and mess up some jump mechanics for them.

    If under-rotation is strictly enforced, a winning layout for ladies may be 3Lz, 3F, 3Lz-2, 3F-2, 2A-3, etc. (obviously with correct jump edges). GoE may prove to be critical. I am having a hard time to envision another girl other than Yuna hitting 3Lz-3T of a highest quality in terms of athleticism and aesthetic when UR is strictly called. If Tuktamysheva or any Russian kid can hit 3Lz-3T consistently in Sochi, it is highly likely that the kid is going to be the gold medalist.
    Liza is not like other girls, she can do 3a ON THE GROUND IN SNEAKERS at the age of 10. http://picasaweb.google.com/Professo...61276064363666

    She should be learning 3a if she can do it on the ground!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Liza is not like other girls, she can do 3a ON THE GROUND IN SNEAKERS at the age of 10. http://picasaweb.google.com/Professo...61276064363666

    She should be learning 3a if she can do it on the ground!
    Just wow!



    I can't wait to see her develop as a skater in the future!

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post

    It seems Mishin wants his last masterpiece if he has made the real commitment to 3A. All the conventional wisdom suggests that the U.S. and Japan should be happy with his attempt as it is more likely that 3A proves to be a waste of time for the Russian girls. Even worse, it can backfire and mess up some jump mechanics for them.
    Your really underestimating Mishin as a coach. Look there are a lot of things that can be said about Mishin, especially when it comes to how he packages his skaters. But when it comes to the jumps, I don't think there's a coach who knows more about the mechanics of jumps and how jumps affect the body. This is a guy who has written books about how science and figure skating go together.

    From the little I understand about Mishin, he is someone whose whole system of teaching jumps is based on the idea that its a bad idea for skaters to fall all the time learning a jump. So he's developed conditioning exercises that get his kids to the point, where they can learn the jump. This isn't exactly the example of a coach who takes risks with his skaters health.

    The point I'm making is I hardly doubt that Mishin would be teaching Eliza the 3axel, if he didn't think that Eliza was capable of learning the 3axel, and if he didn't think he could teach Eliza the 3axel safely. While he hasn't had a female star yet, he has had female skaters before, and we've yet to see one of his females attempt the 3axel. I hardly doubt he'd risk Eliza's career on a pipe dream.

    As for Eliza's consistency from what I understand the jumps are consistent in practice (or at least they were) and it may be a matter of her just becoming a better competitor.

    I somehow highly doubt that the Japanese federation and the US federation find the idea of Mishin teaching a female how to do the 3axel as funny. I suspect if they know about its something that they would take quite seriously because they know this is someone who is one of the best jumping coaches around.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Liza is not like other girls, she can do 3a ON THE GROUND IN SNEAKERS at the age of 10. http://picasaweb.google.com/Professo...61276064363666

    She should be learning 3a if she can do it on the ground!
    Many people can do a double on the ground. But, it is a diff story with the boots on.

    I guess, Mishin will go on if he is serious about it right now.

  7. #67

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    oopss sorry delete.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Your really underestimating Mishin as a coach. Look there are a lot of things that can be said about Mishin, especially when it comes to how he packages his skaters. But when it comes to the jumps, I don't think there's a coach who knows more about the mechanics of jumps and how jumps affect the body. This is a guy who has written books about how science and figure skating go together.

    From the little I understand about Mishin, he is someone whose whole system of teaching jumps is based on the idea that its a bad idea for skaters to fall all the time learning a jump. So he's developed conditioning exercises that get his kids to the point, where they can learn the jump. This isn't exactly the example of a coach who takes risks with his skaters health.

    The point I'm making is I hardly doubt that Mishin would be teaching Eliza the 3axel, if he didn't think that Eliza was capable of learning the 3axel, and if he didn't think he could teach Eliza the 3axel safely. While he hasn't had a female star yet, he has had female skaters before, and we've yet to see one of his females attempt the 3axel. I hardly doubt he'd risk Eliza's career on a pipe dream.

    As for Eliza's consistency from what I understand the jumps are consistent in practice (or at least they were) and it may be a matter of her just becoming a better competitor.

    I somehow highly doubt that the Japanese federation and the US federation find the idea of Mishin teaching a female how to do the 3axel as funny. I suspect if they know about its something that they would take quite seriously because they know this is someone who is one of the best jumping coaches around.
    No doubt that Mishin is a great coach and a great mind when it comes to jump. However, that does not mean teaching 3A is not a huge gamble as he cannot foresee how the bodies of the girls' may change. Again, it is a gamble. Whether or not it is justified is based on one's projection of their body changes. As you can guess, I am not positive about it. If he has made the commitment, Mishin obviously thinks otherwise. But, it is still a huge gamble.

    I did not say 3A is a health risk although it could be. And, some of your arguments are not about what I said. So, I will not argue about it.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    No doubt that Mishin is a great coach and a great mind when it comes to jump. However, that does not mean teaching 3A is not a huge gamble as he cannot foresee how the bodies of the girls' may change. Again, it is a gamble. Whether or not it is justified is based on one's projection of their body changes. As you can guess, I am not positive about it. If he has made the commitment, Mishin obviously thinks otherwise. But, it is still a gamble.

    I did not say 3A is a health risk although it could be. And, some of your arguments are not about what I said. So, I will not argue about it.
    Nobody knows how any skater's body is going to change and that goes for girls and boys. Throughout Mishin's career, he's been teaching young kids how to jump. Its not like this is the first time this guy has taught the 3axel. He knows it can affect the other jumps and how.

    Most coaches have found that its difficult for girls to learn jumps after puberty. So most of them try to teach the girls the tricks before puberty, and then hope that they are able to keep the jumps afterwards. Asada after all learned the 3axel before puberty.

    Once again, I highly doubt Mishin is putting all of his hopes on Eliza learning the 3axel. He's clearly worked very hard to make sure Eliza has all the other triples with good technique. She has 3/3s. Lots of girls have trained the 3axel, and it hasn't ruined their careers or turned out to be this big gamble. As long as Mishin is being careful, and not putting all of his eggs in that basket. I think it will be okay.

    The guy knows what he's doing. And Eliza is not Mao. She has a solid foundation on all of her jumps. So she will never have to just rely on the 3axel.
    Last edited by bek; 04-05-2010 at 04:53 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    Many people can do a double on the ground. But, it is a diff story with the boots on.

    I guess, Mishin will go on if he is serious about it right now.
    Yeah but a double axel is very different from a triple axel, and for most people, it's easier to do a 2a on the ice because you have momentum. Liza's 3a on the ground was practically at a standstill, which makes it that much more impressive. Also Liza looks pretty tall already.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Nobody knows how any skater's body is going to change and that goes for girls and boys. Throughout Mishin's career, he's been teaching young kids how to jump. Its not like this is the first time this guy has taught the 3axel. He knows it can affect the other jumps and how.

    Most coaches have found that its difficult for girls to learn jumps after puberty. So most of them try to teach the girls the tricks before puberty, and then hope that they are able to keep the jumps afterwards. Asada after all learned the 3axel before puberty.

    Once again, I highly doubt Mishin is putting all of his hopes on Eliza learning the 3axel. He's clearly worked very hard to make sure Eliza has all the other triples with good technique. She has 3/3s. Lots of girls have trained the 3axel, and it hasn't ruined their careers or turned out to be this big gamble. As long as Mishin is being careful, and not putting all of his eggs in that basket. I think it will be okay.

    The guy knows what he's doing. And Eliza is not Mao. She has a solid foundation on all of her jumps. So she will never have to just rely on the 3axel.
    Yes, it is true that you should teach kids jump techniques before the first growth spurt. And, I do absolutely agree on Mishin's insight and knowledge, especially on jump. But, the odds are against any girl when it comes to fully rotated 3A, which is a statistical truth. Therefore, when you cannot foresee how the body may change, it becomes a game of probability and is not very favorable. In other words, it is a judgment call, and I do not feel good about it.

    Obviously, Mishin believes that the girls have mastered the techniques, so he is moving on to 3A again if and only if he is indeed serious about it (I doubt he actually is, which is why I don't wanna get into this too deeply). We will see next season as kids usually master triples and combinations around 14 or 15 (the downside of the gamble is so much less at that age with the triples and combinations already mastered).

    I actually care about Tuktamysheva a great deal because it is apparent how gifted she is.
    Last edited by key65man; 04-05-2010 at 05:08 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Yeah but a double axel is very different from a triple axel, and for most people, it's easier to do a 2a on the ice because you have momentum. Liza's 3a on the ground was practically at a standstill, which makes it that much more impressive. Also Liza looks pretty tall already.
    You will have to take off and land on a small blade with so much more speed. But, I guess you may be right that Tuktamysheva can make it. As for now, though, we will have to disagree on it.

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    Obviously, Mishin believes that the girls have mastered the techniques, so he is moving on to 3A again if and only if he is indeed serious about it (I doubt he actually is, which is why I don't wanna get into this too deeply). We will see next season as kids usually master triples and combinations around 14 or 15 (the downside of the gamble is so much less at that age with the triples and combinations already mastered).
    But Eliza is already doing 3/3s and double axel/3toes. She's been doing them for years. So this is just the next step. I doubt she's practicing just the 3axel and not the 3/3s or double axel/3toes. So I'm not seeing the big deal here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    But Eliza is already doing 3/3s and double axel/3toes. She's been doing them for years. So this is just the next step. I doubt she's practicing just the 3axel and not the 3/3s or double axel/3toes. So I'm not seeing the big deal here.
    I guess it really depends on how we define consistency. Better yet, the acceptable level of consistency for whatever her goal is. I acknowledge that I have not seen as many Liza's clips as you might have. But, based on a few clips I have seen on youtube, I feel differently about the consistency of her jumps. I am not just talking about simple success rate, either. Consistency is also about how reliably one can reproduce the same motions as far as the mechanics are concerned. I see her jump mechanics amazing to say the least. However, I doubt that they are reliable enough yet. Then again, I am sure Mishin is far, far better qualified to make a judgment of it as you may agree. I guess that is where we see things differently. In other words, you may see her jump mechanics reliable enough.

    3A is a very difficult jump, and therefore it requires bigger a commitment in terms of time than any other jumps for girls. And, you probably know where I am driving this at. And, my argument is based on the level of commitment, really. If Mishin is just probing the possibility, that may be a completely diff story, and I am just making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Again, you may be right. We will have to wait till the next season, though.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Nobody knows how any skater's body is going to change and that goes for girls and boys. Throughout Mishin's career, he's been teaching young kids how to jump. Its not like this is the first time this guy has taught the 3axel. He knows it can affect the other jumps and how.

    Most coaches have found that its difficult for girls to learn jumps after puberty. So most of them try to teach the girls the tricks before puberty, and then hope that they are able to keep the jumps afterwards. Asada after all learned the 3axel before puberty.

    Once again, I highly doubt Mishin is putting all of his hopes on Eliza learning the 3axel. He's clearly worked very hard to make sure Eliza has all the other triples with good technique. She has 3/3s. Lots of girls have trained the 3axel, and it hasn't ruined their careers or turned out to be this big gamble. As long as Mishin is being careful, and not putting all of his eggs in that basket. I think it will be okay.

    The guy knows what he's doing. And Eliza is not Mao. She has a solid foundation on all of her jumps. So she will never have to just rely on the 3axel.
    Liza is not Mao, and I'm not sure puberty will necessarily be a bad thing for her 3a. I mean, Mao's 3a is nice and yeah she is a stick but Midori and Tonya's 3a were so much better than Mao's, I mean Midori's was huge and she could do 3a-3t no sweat and it was definitely fully rotated and she was not a little pixie. Liza has very good jump technique and yes she does fall a lot but when she falls, her jumps are usually rotated, and if I had to guess the falls are likely due to growing really fast as most 13 year olds are. I don't think it's bad that she's working on the 3a, lots of people work on the 3a. I mean, even Alissa Czisny who can't even rotate a 3loop was working on the 3a for awhile when she was like 18. Yuna said she worked on 3a when she was 12-13 and Johnny says Ksenia works on it and the 4sal. Anna Ovcharova has also been working on 3a recently. I really don't think there is much harm in learning the 3a, it doesn't mean you have to do it in competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyh201 View Post
    I think Mao had better work on the speed into and out of a jump. If you lose speed after the first jump, it would be hard to get a momentum for the second jump. If she does not work on that, 3F+3Lo is not worth taking a risk, IMO.
    Plus, working on her speed going in and out will help her having more GOE.
    But I think it's very difficult to rework the whole technique...

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    What about height? Is she able to get her toe jumps higher? I'd like to see a 2a+3t from her again, or a 3+3t combo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    What about height? Is she able to get her toe jumps higher? I'd like to see a 2a+3t from her again, or a 3+3t combo...
    I think these combo's will be more likely. Her toeloop is so much more stable and technically cleaner now than when she did 2a-3t in 2007. Unless the rules are changed, her 3-3loop combo's will nearly always be downgraded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    What about height? Is she able to get her toe jumps higher? I'd like to see a 2a+3t from her again, or a 3+3t combo...
    Mao's jumps seem to have gotten lower since she has lost the weight, but I feel like she's always had a bit of a hammertoe problem with her toe jumps, and that's why she doesn't do 3-3s with the 3t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Mao's jumps seem to have gotten lower since she has lost the weight, but I feel like she's always had a bit of a hammertoe problem with her toe jumps, and that's why she doesn't do 3-3s with the 3t.
    Well, she did them before. Her toe jumps have actually gotten more stable for her to bring them back this season, so I think she could start working on a combo with a 3T. It's very hard to get a 3L at the end of the combo ratified for some reason.

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