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  1. #21
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    Moore-Towers & Moscvotich are truck drivers. Unless they are both taking several ballet classes per week and change coaches, I just don't see this team doing much on the international scene.
    They skated together for less than a year and did pretty awesome at Skate Canada and their team mates just finished as the best Canadian team at Junior Worlds...coaches can't be that bad ;-)
    They are both great jumpers and have awesome lifts...there are enough other lovey-dovey-edgy-ballett teams out there. What's so wrong about being an athletic team? Plus the crowd loves them!

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by ice.dance.girl View Post
    They skated together for less than a year and did pretty awesome at Skate Canada and their team mates just finished as the best Canadian team at Junior Worlds...coaches can't be that bad ;-)
    They are both great jumpers and have awesome lifts...there are enough other lovey-dovey-edgy-ballett teams out there. What's so wrong about being an athletic team? Plus the crowd loves them!
    I agree. I like this team and I like how their styles mesh well.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ice.dance.girl View Post
    They skated together for less than a year and did pretty awesome at Skate Canada and their team mates just finished as the best Canadian team at Junior Worlds...coaches can't be that bad ;-)
    They are both great jumpers and have awesome lifts...there are enough other lovey-dovey-edgy-ballett teams out there. What's so wrong about being an athletic team? Plus the crowd loves them!

    Amen....Well said.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    Cdn pairs is in shambles right now IMO.

    Dube and Langlois are both headcases and neither team has really improved that much over the last three seasons (at least L&H have an excuse with that terrible injury Langlois suffered).

    The jury is out on the alleged new pairing of Duhamel & Radford.

    . . .

    All in all, not looking good for pairs.
    I agree with you that Canadian pairs is a mess.

    IMO it has not yet recovered from the departure of Sale & Pelletier in 2002. Originally S&P were planning to stay past 2002, but the Olympics changed that and they broke their original plan. Their abrupt departure meant that Canadian pairs didn't have time to plan for a successor.

    As a result it has gone through multiple title holders in recent years, and partner changing.

    Winners:

    2003 Nationals - LaRiviere & Faustino (split up after that year's Worlds)
    2004 Nationals - Marcoux & Buntin
    2005 Nationals - Marcoux & Buntin
    2006 Nationals - Marcoux & Buntin
    2007 Nationals - Dube & Davison
    2008 Nationals - Langlois & Hay
    2009 Nationals - Dube & Davison
    2010 Nationals - Dube & Davison

    After the brief blip of LaRiviere and Faustino, there was a bit of consistency for a while when Marcoux & Buntin were competing, but their progress was halted when Valerie decided to pack it in. Meanwhile, after years of ups and downs with Archetto, it took a while for Langlois to climb the ranks again after Archetto retired. Both Langlois and Dube have continued to struggle with consistency problems. Duhamel & Buntin, while not as strong as Marcoux & Buntin, brought Canada some consistency as a 2nd tier pair, but now Buntin has retired.

    As a result, Canada is left with 2 pairs, L&H and D&D both who struggle with consistency problems, and a lot of question marks for all the other teams below them.

    I think it will be several years before a Canadian pair is on the World podium again. The U.S. pairs are now even catching up with the Canadian pairs, something that was evident at the Worlds and Olympics.

  5. #25

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    They are both great jumpers and have awesome lifts...there are enough other lovey-dovey-edgy-ballett teams out there. What's so wrong about being an athletic team? Plus the crowd loves them!
    The problem is that even skating clean (as they did at Skate Canada) they don't break 100 points. They couldn't do any more technically, nor should they have to. They NEED better PCS and GOE scores if they want to make an impact internationally. If they don't get those, they will never make the podium at a Grand Prix event.

    I guess if their only goal is to make the crowd happy, they won't worry about their currently low PCS/GOE scores. However, I think they wouldn't mind winning a few medals too, and that will require improving their quality of execution for their technical elements (to get the GOE points) and developing better basic skating, unison and style (to get the PCS points).

    The question is whether the PCS and GOE scores will come with more time together and more experience, or whether their lack of them is a fundamental problem related to their coaching. Hopefully it's the former, because I like this team.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoskate View Post
    The problem is that even skating clean (as they did at Skate Canada) they don't break 100 points. They couldn't do any more technically, nor should they have to. They NEED better PCS and GOE scores if they want to make an impact internationally. If they don't get those, they will never make the podium at a Grand Prix event.

    I guess if their only goal is to make the crowd happy, they won't worry about their currently low PCS/GOE scores. However, I think they wouldn't mind winning a few medals too, and that will require improving their quality of execution for their technical elements (to get the GOE points) and developing better basic skating, unison and style (to get the PCS points).

    The question is whether the PCS and GOE scores will come with more time together and more experience, or whether their lack of them is a fundamental problem related to their coaching. Hopefully it's the former, because I like this team.
    Exactly.

  7. #27
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    Anyone know if D/D have considered using the 3toe instead of 3S? With them both being strong singles skaters not too long ago, I am surprised to see Jessica having confidence problems with the salchow

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoskate View Post

    The question is whether the PCS and GOE scores will come with more time together and more experience, or whether their lack of them is a fundamental problem related to their coaching. Hopefully it's the former, because I like this team.
    At the risk of hijacking the thread, aren't PCS and GOE still the judge's playground? IMO this is still where the judges can play favourites - and sometimes it still seems like skaters/team have to put in their time. This team hasn't put their time in yet so they haven't been rewarded yet.

    I love their energy and enthusiasm and they are both just so cute! As others have said, they've come a long way in just a year together and I'm pretty excited to see where they will go with it.

    I also quite like Paige and Rudi. I loved their short program this year. IMO both these teams are just a lot of fun to watch. I know mainstreamers prefer the pretty ballerinas - and I like some of them too but I can also appreciate teams like these two.

    As for the juniors coming up - I think there are some really good possibilities there too. We've already hashed it out in other threads but there were lots of teams attempting and landing some of the big tricks and if they are willing to "put in their time" together there could be lots of promise there too. Sometimes I think we are just too quick to write off all these kids have to offer the sport!

    Okay, getting off my soap box now

  9. #29

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    IMO it has not yet recovered from the departure of Sale & Pelletier in 2002. Originally S&P were planning to stay past 2002, but the Olympics changed that and they broke their original plan. Their abrupt departure meant that Canadian pairs didn't have time to plan for a successor.
    I think the success of S&P merely masked a long history of a flawed Canada's pairs program, which commenced when Brasseur/Eisler retired. S&P were a bit of a fluke--they paired up late in their skating careers and then BAM! Instant success. It's hard to attribute their success to anything Skate Canada did for them. Kinda like crediting Russia if Tatianna and Maxim end up being a successful pair.

    Canada just seems to be behind the ball, technically. I mean, inconsistent jumps is one thing--hello, Canadian ladies! But why is the triple twist such a rare move amongst the current Canadian pairs?

    Maybe Canada's stronger skaters are deciding to choose dance over pairs. In a different time, maybe Crone/Poirier would've done pairs.

    Anyways, given our country's population numbers, it'll be really hard to replicate the depth of other nations like the US, Japan and Russia. Has Canada experienced a better era when it comes to success in all four disciplines? Even back in 1988, the pairs was the weak link. At least pairs at its worst is not as bad as ladies at its worst.

    ETA: In London for Canadians, I actually found the pairs the most generally well-skated discipline. The top 3 skated their best all season and I really liked a lot of the younger teams. I am not sure why the teams cannot replicate the same quality internationally.
    Last edited by manhn; 03-31-2010 at 06:43 AM.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwagner View Post
    Anyone know if D/D have considered using the 3toe instead of 3S? With them both being strong singles skaters not too long ago, I am surprised to see Jessica having confidence problems with the salchow
    Jessica Dube cannot do a 3toe jump. She never has been able to. It is her worst triple jump.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Canada just seems to be behind the ball, technically. I mean, inconsistent jumps is one thing--hello, Canadian ladies! But why is the triple twist such a rare move amongst the current Canadian pairs?
    To me it seems that there is a lack of strong female pair skaters in Canada. They either can't do the SBS jumps and/or throws, or else they are so unpolished/unrefined/unsophisticated that you just know they are never going to do anything at the senior international level with respect to PCS marks.

    I think there's a big problem in Canada in that many of our female skaters (ice dancers excluded) are not encouraged to take ballet. As a result, they look like truck drivers out there. I thought Skate Canada was supposed to be encouraging ballet 10 years ago with the coaches, but I'm not seeing that that is happening. Either the parents don't buy it, or the coaches don't think it's important.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ice.dance.girl View Post
    They skated together for less than a year and did pretty awesome at Skate Canada and their team mates just finished as the best Canadian team at Junior Worlds...coaches can't be that bad ;-)
    They are both great jumpers and have awesome lifts...there are enough other lovey-dovey-edgy-ballett teams out there. What's so wrong about being an athletic team? Plus the crowd loves them!
    So it looks like we have the Kitchener-Waterloo brigade in this thread.

    The problem with MT&M is that they zero finesse, polish, toe point, etc in their skating. There are times where she skates around with arms dropped beside her. Nothing is ever placed. They just bomb around from one element to the next rushing through the music and movements. Hopefully there will be improvements this fall.

    As for Jones & Gaskell, I think he has potential, but she needs big time work on posture, edge quality, stroking, toe point, etc. She can't even hit a good position in the BODS. One of the worst I've ever seen.

    I blame the coaching situtation. The Wirtzes were never the most polished team out there. Kristy herself was a bit of a truck driver and obviously they (as coaches) have put all the emphasis on the "big tricks" and pretty much nothing else. It's a shame because their teams are athletic.
    Last edited by Rafter; 03-31-2010 at 03:34 PM.

  13. #33
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    Truck driver is a good description- even some of Canada's more refined pairs have that quality.

    My all time favorite Canadian pair -Hough & Laudret. They're Canadian (I hope), right? Boy I love watching their old routines on SOI video clips. Toughy(ie?) Hough could dance rock'n'roll on the ice like no other.

    Maybe SC needs to start farming out their pairs to some of the non-Canadian coaches around.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    To me it seems that there is a lack of strong female pair skaters in Canada. They either can't do the SBS jumps and/or throws, or else they are so unpolished/unrefined/unsophisticated that you just know they are never going to do anything at the senior international level with respect to PCS marks.
    I agree. This to me is the biggest problem.

    What I would like to know is, why is it usually the girls who seem to have so much more trouble with the SBS jumps than the guys? It was a big problem for Jamie Sale for many years, and now it continues to be a big problem for Annabelle Langlois and Jessica Dube. I have rarely seen these ladies get through a long program without a problem on the SBS jumps.

    Despite the fact that Cody Hay has less experience than Langlois, he is already more consistent on his SBS jumps than she is. Why are the guys more consistent?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shallwedance View Post
    IMO if Dube/Davison want to compete next season and are serious about their goals they need another coach. Aren't they the highest ranked skaters' Barabe' has? They're not training with anybody they can role model and learn from, and they're not be trained by anybody who has trained a team who routinely lands on the international podium. I'm beginning to believe they succeed despite their coaching. igher
    So where should pair teams go to get the coaching that is needed to succeed?

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    So it looks like we have the Kitchener-Waterloo brigade in this thread.

    The problem with MT&M is that they zero finesse, polish, toe point, etc in their skating. There are times where she skates around with arms dropped beside her. Nothing is ever placed. They just bomb around from one element to the next rushing through the music and movements. Hopefully there will be improvements this fall.

    As for Jones & Gaskell, I think he has potential, but she needs big time work on posture, edge quality, stroking, toe point, etc. She can't even hit a good position in the BODS. One of the worst I've ever seen.

    I blame the coaching situtation. The Wirtzes were never the most polished team out there. Kristy herself was a bit of a truck driver and obviously they (as coaches) have put all the emphasis on the "big tricks" and pretty much nothing else. It's a shame because their teams are athletic.
    I'm curious Rafter. Are you a (former) skater, a coach, a judge or just a skating fan? I don't mean to offend by this question, I'm just quite interested in what background you bring to your criticisms. Would you consider sharing teams and/or coaches that you admire and the reasons for that. I don't have a dance or skating background. I'm just a fan but I'm interested in learning more.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdiva View Post
    So where should pair teams go to get the coaching that is needed to succeed?
    No idea but if dance teams can go to non-Canadian coaches, can't a Canadian team go to Muskvina or something?

    Just - Barabe is the worst, IMO. These are simply impressions and I'm open to correction, but she seems like she coddles D&D and is more of a peer than a coach. Fine if they're getting results, but they're not. For instance, she let on that D&D were disappointed at first in Vancouver but then realized sixth (seventh?) in the world is amazing. Heeelllloooooo! It's like this team spends way too much time contemplating the universe and their place in it and not enough time getting themselves and their skating in the absolute best condition they can possibly be, raising the bar and trying to push past it. That's how it has to be done.

    Have to wonder how William Thompson and Skate Canada looks at their situation right now. He touted the results of all of the skaters but D&D, but what's the answer? Toss em in the trash, pull the plug? A meeting that includes pep talks and goal setting without any change in environment? I mean, ??

  18. #38
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    I think that more top pairs should go to Lee Barkell. He has Langlois/Hay and for all his singles coaching success (Jeff, Chris Mabee, Nobu, Joey Russell...), pairs is really his specialty, so I'm surprised he doesn't have more top pairs there.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    I think that more top pairs should go to Lee Barkell. He has Langlois/Hay and for all his singles coaching success (Jeff, Chris Mabee, Nobu, Joey Russell...), pairs is really his specialty, so I'm surprised he doesn't have more top pairs there.
    I don't think there's much left in the way of pairs in Barrie though. It's uncertain if Langlois/Hay are continuing and their other senior team Pisotta/Stewart have split and well as their junior team of Bird/Schultz so it doesn't seem there's much of a pairs environment there any more.

    There aren't a lot of pairs training centres in Canada really. There's Kevin Wheeler in Preston, Scott Rachuk in Strathroy, the Wirtzs in Waterloo and then Gauthier and Barabe in Quebec and then I think Lawrence and Sweigers are with Hole in Saskatchewan.

    Might be kind of interesting, if one had a lot of time on their hands, to do a medal count for each of them lol!

  20. #40

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    If I was a skater I would want to hang up my skates after reading some of these posts.

    How can anyone say that a skater who has reached the level that these kids have has 'zero' anything???? As a fan, I sat through Canadians and was so inspired by the depth that there seemed to be, in pairs especially. I can honestly say that I never once thought about a skaters' toe point or whether or not they looked like a truck driver or whether or not they sucked because they lacked consistency. I did however think WOW how awesome are these skaters. How amazing that they have the courage to do what they are doing.

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