What does Caroline Zhang need to do to work her way back up to the podium?

[Polymer Bob]

Are you trying to suggest that judges only base their scores on the loudness of applause from the audience? Huh??

In that case maybe the judges are just no longer excited by her flexibility and spins after a couple of years since her debut and are starting to notice her glaring weaknesses just like the rest of the audience. It's not that hard.

I do not accept that audiences have changed the way they applaud. What excited them in the '08-'09 season was the same as what excited them in the '09-'10 season. If audiences responded to Caroline better in the '08-'09 season, it was because she skated better, despite her serious flaws.

[pinky166]

Ahead of Dobbs and Gilles.

And this was the pre-Olympic 4CCs

Dobbs was a nobody, only landed 3toes, 3sals and 2axels, fell and still equalled Zhang's PCS and was only behind by 2.5 points overall. Dobbs actually beat Zhang in PCS too. Get a clue.

This refusal to acknowledge her flaws is just

Yeah exactly. Min-Jung Kwak beat Caroline in TES and wasn't far behind in PCS, Caroline's FS score was about 4 points higher than Min-Jung's at 4CC. I think this 4CCs results really shows who she is on par with right now: Dobbs, Imai, Kwak. That is the reality. She's not on par with Flatt or Nagasu or even Czisny and Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette are head and shoulders ahead of Caroline now, whereas before they weren't. Skaters like Sarah Hecken and Cynthia Phanuef showed at Worlds that if they skate well, they can easily be ahead of Zhang. I mean, Caroline's FS at nationals was not that bad for her and she was still beaten by Czisny, Hughes, Gilles, Liang, Dobbs, and Gao. I think that should be a wakeup call.

[Polymer Bob]

I think this 4CCs results really shows who she is on par with right now: Dobbs, Imai, Kwak. That is the reality.

Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.

[flyingsit]

Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.

Yes, and Miss Dobbs was competing at the senior level in two events last season, and placed well in both of them. Pretty good for a first-year senior without even attempting a triple loop or triple lutz!

[oleada]

And it was the first Senior Championship for Imai, Kwak & Dobbs.

[smarts1]

One thing you have to remember is that Caroline also messed up the triple lutz in the long at 4CC and even more, there isn't much of a point difference between triples such as a sal and a loop (Dobbs does two sals and Caroline does two loops), so the TES isn't must different.

That's one of my complaints about the judging system now. Under the old system, without a lutz and a flip there was NO WAY you could end up on any podium, but now with the new one in place, it's much easier. There needs to be a much bigger difference between a lutz and a toe--two points is simply too small.

[pinky166]

Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.

Yeah but Caroline's scores were much closer to those girls than to Akiko's and Mao's. Mirai and Rachael had very disappointing LPs at Worlds and still matched Caroline's 4CC LP score. Also Caroline was 11th at nationals, 11th, meaning even as a USFSA darling, the judges see her skating as inferior to that of Liang, Dobbs and Gao.

[Polymer Bob]

Also Caroline was 11th at nationals, 11th, meaning even as a USFSA darling, the judges see her skating as inferior to that of Liang, Dobbs and Gao.

Yes, that's true. It also seems the USFSA judges see her skating as inferior to how the ISU judges see it. Then again, she is not a USFSA darling. She never, NEVER, got any favors at a national event.

[pinky166]

Yes, that's true. It also seems the USFSA judges see her skating as inferior to how the ISU judges see it. Then again, she is not a USFSA darling. She never, NEVER, got any favors at a national event.

You have a point, though until this year it didn't stop her from placing well. And I'm not so sure about your ISU claim, I mean Skate Canada?? That was a nightmare, Caroline got like 40 for her PCS in the LP, and at TEB she didn't get great scores either, and in the 08-09 season she was always grumbling about her scores and didn't break 60 for her SP in the last two seasons. I think some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner) but then a lot just get pretty much the same scores at nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu). Caroline would fall into the second category.

[hanca]

I think some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner) but then a lot just get pretty much the same scores at nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu). Caroline would fall into the second category.

No, actually while some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner), and some get pretty much the same scores nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu), Caroline got always much lower scores at nationals than at internationals. This last season I believe that she did deserve the low scores, although to be fair she has been injured and had back problems, but in the past I think she was robbed a few times at home competition. Caroline being a USFSA darling? That's a joke?

[michiruwater]

Aside from last season, which was extremely poor for her, Caroline's scores at Nationals were always much lower in comparison to her scores from Internationals. It was very strange because it never seems to happen that way.

[pinky166]

No, actually while some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner), and some get pretty much the same scores nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu), Caroline got always much lower scores at nationals than at internationals. This last season I believe that she did deserve the low scores, although to be fair she has been injured and had back problems, but in the past I think she was robbed a few times at home competition. Caroline being a USFSA darling? That's a joke?

Well she was in 2007, and the commentators certainly love her, but yeah, she does seem to get dinged in the SP at nationals year after year. Her 112 and 118 LP scores at 09 and 08 nationals were comparable to what she had been getting internationally those years though.

[smarts1]

^Yeah but when the rest of the field is getting score inflation, what Caroline is getting at nationals is score DEFLATION.

One other problem is that Caroline has never peaked at Nationals. She always seems to make a mistake that becomes her undoing at Nationals which would not happen at other competitions. For example last year, Caroline stepped out of her double axel in short at Nationals while at Four Continents and at WTT she skated clean programs.

[pinky166]

^Yeah but when the rest of the field is getting score inflation, what Caroline is getting at nationals is score DEFLATION.

One other problem is that Caroline has never peaked at Nationals. She always seems to make a mistake that becomes her undoing at Nationals which would not happen at other competitions. For example last year, Caroline stepped out of her double axel in short at Nationals while at Four Continents and at WTT she skated clean programs.

True. I feel like Caroline doesn't skate as well in America, kind of like how Miki doesn't skate well in Japan. I feel like Caroline usually does best around the time of 4CC and Junior Worlds, meaning she peaks later in the season. Apart from the 07 GP season, Caroline has never done great at her GP events, then has mistakes at nationals, then goes on to do well at 4CC and/or Junior Worlds.

[Polymer Bob]

Yeah but when the rest of the field is getting score inflation, what Caroline is getting at nationals is score DEFLATION.

She always seems to make a mistake that becomes her undoing at Nationals which would not happen at other competitions.

Her worst mistake was at the 2008 Nationals short when she apparently phased into hyper-space for one of her elements. The judges didn't see it, gave her no credit, and knocked her out of the final free skate group. To be fair, the judges tried to correct their mistake and added points to her score. Then someone reminded them that points couldn't be added, even if it was their mistake, and the points were taken away.

We couldn't figure out why her short program score got changed up, then back down again.

[pinky166]

Is Caroline still in Colorado?

[chipso1]

Her worst mistake was at the 2008 Nationals short when she apparently phased into hyper-space for one of her elements. The judges didn't see it, gave her no credit, and knocked her out of the final free skate group. To be fair, the judges tried to correct their mistake and added points to her score. Then someone reminded them that points couldn't be added, even if it was their mistake, and the points were taken away.

We couldn't figure out why her short program score got changed up, then back down again.

No, her worst mistake in 2008 was underrotating her 3/3 and falling out of the second jump.

In 2009, aside from stepping out of her 2A, she also didn't complete enough revs in one of her layback positions to get a Level 4 on that element.

[Sylvia]

Is Caroline still in Colorado?

No.

[Marco]

True. I feel like Caroline doesn't skate as well in America, kind of like how Miki doesn't skate well in Japan.

World title 2007

[Polymer Bob]

No, her worst mistake in 2008 was underrotating her 3/3 and falling out of the second jump.

In 2008, she stepped out of her 3-3, but she did not fall out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_OGaZ8qNXU