Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 127
  1. #101
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    B-B-BUTT Sasha was hyped and marketed by Mr. Nicks and skating commentator "experts" as "the most talented skater in the world" and as such, she shouldn't be judged under her own reasonable, imperfect, inconsistent expectations, but instead from a consistent, flawless ideal of what a perfect skater should be.
    Sasha with overhyped. That is the bottom line. Her competitive record speaks for itself, she is barely beyond Fumie Suguri. And it not like her basic skating or athleticsm transcends her medal count as if she were Trixi Schuba or Midori Ito. She was a skater with wonderful positions, flexability, spins, and spirals, who was a mediocre (at best) jumper, slow, had poor basics, and never skated cleanly. And her choreography was hit or mess.

  2. #102

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    7,390
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4361
    Quote Originally Posted by amaro View Post
    ... . Unlike Kwan, Arakawa proved that she was more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics. ...
    While Arakawa had a long career, the physical strain on Kwan would include triple jumps for 70+ COI shows a season (during the post whack boom) for around ten years. If Arakawa had been under the same physical demands as Kwan, I doubt that Arakawa would have been any more competitive in '06 than Kwan -- and for the same reason. The human body simply is not built to take the physical strain of that many jumps.

  3. #103
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    with my Sestra Helena plotting how to ravish Hot Paul and delicious Cal
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,255
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    While Arakawa had a long career, the physical strain on Kwan would include triple jumps for 70+ COI shows a season (during the post whack boom) for around ten years. If Arakawa had been under the same physical demands as Kwan, I doubt that Arakawa would have been any more competitive in '06 than Kwan -- and for the same reason. The human body simply is not built to take the physical strain of that many jumps.
    Very valid point! I'm glad that as a skating fan I was able to witness both of these fine women achieve the great success they did in the sport. What role models they both are!

  4. #104
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Where banjos play.
    Age
    35
    Posts
    8,070
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I'd rank them:

    2000: Michelle Kwan, Red Violin (first two are practically a tie...I always switch between them as favorites)

    2001: Michelle Kwan, Song of the Black Swan

    2003: Michelle Kwan, Aranjuez

    2004: Shizuka Arakawa, Turandot

    2008: Mao Asada, Fantasie-Impromptu

    2009: Yu-na Kim, Scheherezade

    2002: Irina Slutskaya, Carmen

    2005: Irina Slutskaya, Queen of Spades

    2006: Kimmie Meissner, Queen of Sheba

    2007: Miki Ando, Mendelssohn Concerto

  5. #105
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    773
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by amaro View Post
    Giving more points to 2000~2003 performances just because they had more triples undermines how difficult the later 2000s programs are compared to the earlier ones due to stiffer technical requirements for all elements.
    confused why this matters. Ladies like Joannie still attempted 7 triples. I think most of us do consider the differences between COP's demands vs 6.0 and we can still look at how individual elements in 6.0 programs were performed to get a feel for how they might be judged under COP. whatever, in general 6.0 programs flowed way more and looked more unique/individual

    Some of the triples Kwan made back in 2000 or 2002 without a doubt would be subject to harsh DGs if today's tech hawk-eyed specialists overlooked her performances under COP, and she might well have ended up with 4-5 fully credited triples per each performance.
    As if Shizuka's triple=triples weren't underrotated. This applies to everyone. Michelle usually fully rotated her triples except sometimes during 3-3 combinations

    While Kwan's performances were fine, if she competed in, say, 2009 with Yuna, Mao, Miki and Joannie, she not only would not have won any medal, but also probably would not have made top 5.
    you can't seriously compare two very different skating system performances. Which is why this thread is more about personal preference than anything.


    I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.
    there's no point in even arguing artistry. it's subjective. what does "about equal to today's skaters" even mean, which top skaters, how many of them? top 3? top 5? top 10?

    actually michelle was always a technically proficient skater. she's one of the most consistent ladies in the history of the sport and I think some kwan fan put together a comparison list of statistics that might prove michelle possibly put together the most 7 triple programs in competition ever, or at least she's among the top few ladies that have done so. she was also known for doing a second triple lutz at the near end of her programs. besides her spirals and consistent jumps with solid technique michelle often had some of the best footwork of all the ladies and basic skating skills/edging. her spins were her weakest asset and even those she learned to significantly improve around 2000.


    Unlike Kwan, Arakawa proved that she was more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics. In fact, if she competed in 2009 with her Oly winning '06 performance, she probably won the silver.
    O_o she had a long career in which she was extremely inconsistent and peaked at the right time. I find it so strange how ppl pick and choose when to be picky about under-rotated triple-triples. as much as I love her skating, most of shizuka's career was nothing to write home about until the end.

    I don't get why there's this general feeling that michelle declined due to COP. by the time of 2005 worlds, she was entering a decade into her figure skating career and would obviously be on decline. her body was wrought with injuries. her performance at 05 worlds was HARDLY anywhere near her best yet she was still extremely close to 3rd place. Her program in terms of construction wasn't even quite fine tuned for COP nor did she understand COP's complex levels completely at that point (most people didn't either, at that point). To say that if Michelle were at her peak in 98 she would not even be top five today (with all of the levels for COP taken care of) is simply a joke to me considering how close she was in 2005 when she was far from her peak . If she tweaked everything to fit COP levels, in terms of grade of execution Michelle always had top notch spirals, footwork and consistent jumps with good technique. Even her spins would get decent scores if she knew how to play the system. Of course, without a triple-triple she would have a hard time beating a clean Mao or Yu-na, but we're talking about something that's only imaginary: Michelle at her peak form in 2010. She only ever completed a 3 toe 3 toe in competition which wouldn't have been enough but she'd claimed to have landed 3 lutz-3 toe consistently in practice, was watched by peggy fleming landing a 3 sal - 3 loop in practice at 01 worlds, was claimed to have landed a 3loop-3loop in front of tara lipinski during practice, and even tried a 3 lutz - triple loop in competition (which although was an utter failure, showed that she probably had at least been landing them in practice, frank carroll only allowed her to perform elements in comp that she landed 80 percent of the time in practice)

    Of course none of this practice stuff or stories of what could have been even matter. but if we're talking about something as imaginary as michelle at her peak (98 or so) in 2010 then..
    Last edited by iarispiralllyof; 07-14-2010 at 06:23 PM.

  6. #106

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    494
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by amaro View Post
    I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.
    I have to disagree with this! Michelle was both technically proficient and a great artist--probably the greatest artistry of all time. As Dick Button said of her exhibition at 1996 Worlds (to EOE), she has great technique and that allows the artistry to come out. Michelle's technique did not diminish appreciably as her career progressed. In some respects it got better--for example, some of her jumps were higher and stronger in 2004 and 2005, at the end of her career. And her artistry continued to improve, too-- her programs in 2003, for example, were packed with even greater passion and command of the ice than we had seen before. I know some people don't get Michelle, but the general consensus is that she had the "it" factor in artistry and was a skater's skater in technique.
    Last edited by giselle23; 07-14-2010 at 07:40 PM.

  7. #107
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Age
    32
    Posts
    800
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by amaro View Post
    Giving more points to 2000~2003 performances just because they had more triples undermines how difficult the later 2000s programs are compared to the earlier ones due to stiffer technical requirements for all elements. Some of the triples Kwan made back in 2000 or 2002 without a doubt would be subject to harsh DGs if today's tech hawk-eyed specialists overlooked her performances under COP, and she might well have ended up with 4-5 fully credited triples per each performance. While Kwan's performances were fine, if she competed in, say, 2009 with Yuna, Mao, Miki and Joannie, she not only would not have won any medal, but also probably would not have made top 5. I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.
    2000? All of her triples at worlds in 2000 were perfectly executed and fully rotated. Everything in 2003 was also fully rotated. 2001 is the only competition where their might be downgrades, but even then, it appears as if most (if not all) of the questionable triples were 1/4 or less under rotated (putting them in the safe zone).

  8. #108
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    The only one who is actually better than Michelle Kwan in almost every aspect is, in my opinion, YuNa Kim. And in the spiral sequence, Michelle is definitely the best ever.

  9. #109
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    806
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    There may be skaters who have passed Michelle in the technical aspect, but when it comes to artistry, no one has surpassed her. Yuna can be exciting but she doesn't come close to Michelle's soulful performances. Maybe Michelle's idol Janet Lynn is her equal , but unfortunately I haven't been able to watch too many of her performances.

  10. #110
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Boston
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,941
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Satellitegirl View Post
    I'd rank them:

    2000: Michelle Kwan, Red Violin (first two are practically a tie...I always switch between them as favorites)

    2001: Michelle Kwan, Song of the Black Swan

    2003: Michelle Kwan, Aranjuez

    2004: Shizuka Arakawa, Turandot

    2008: Mao Asada, Fantasie-Impromptu

    2009: Yu-na Kim, Scheherezade

    2002: Irina Slutskaya, Carmen

    2005: Irina Slutskaya, Queen of Spades

    2006: Kimmie Meissner, Queen of Sheba

    2007: Miki Ando, Mendelssohn Concerto
    I agree with this, except I'd switch Mao and Yu-Na.

  11. #111
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Boston
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,941
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I dont think Kwan's 2003 Worlds winning LP would have even won the 2000 or 2001 Worlds. With her 2003 Worlds winning LP in 2000 she would have been placed 2nd to Slutskaya in the LP which would have placed her 3rd overall behind Slutskaya and Butyrskaya (the short program winner), whereas in 2001 she would have won the silver behind Slutskaya. Granted I know this isnt just about how they stack up competitively (atleast I dont think it is) but Kwan's 2003 World winning performance wouldnt have even been enough to win in years like 2000 and 2001.
    This thread is just about the LPs

  12. #112
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Searching for Sergei Verbillo's lost stache
    Posts
    715
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    And in the spiral sequence, Michelle is definitely the best ever.
    eh...What about Nicole Bobek?!

  13. #113
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,176
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    eh...What about Nicole Bobek?!
    Bobek's sequences generally did not have the difficulty one can see in Kwan's. Her individual spirals were absolutely breath-taking though.

    I also think Kwan was better at incorporating spirals into choreography than Bobek could.

  14. #114

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Infected with the joy of skating!!
    Posts
    10,547
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    14026
    Honestly Marco, if you look at the way spiral sequences were being done when Bobek started making the final flight at US Nationals, it's hardly a fair comparison. Bobek revolutionized the element, and I'm quite certain she could have kept pace with Kwan had they come along in the same era. Yes, I know they competed against one another, but I think of Bobek as being part of the "gee, I hope I land 5 triples" era, and never really getting on board the 6 triple minimum train that Lu, Lipinski, Kwan and others picked up from Midori and Kristi.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  15. #115
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Boston
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,941
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Good point ^, but I think Marco's right about Michelle being more crafty with the spiral. It's really apples to oranges, though, as few of the other skaters could come close to a Kwan or Bobek spiral.

  16. #116
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    This thread is just about the LPs
    I realize that and I dont think Kwan's 2003 Worlds LP would have actually won the LP at either the 2000 or 2001 Worlds, which obviously her 2000 and 2001 World LPs were able to.

  17. #117
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,826
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Count me in as another who does not understand why so many believe Kwan's "demise" was the result of COP. She could not even land a triple loop in 2005 which also happened to be 11 years after her Worlds debut. She was more than capeable of getting high scores on footwork and spirals and +GOE on her jumps even being 11 years into her career with a hip injury. I am sure in her prime she would have made an easy adjustment to COP. Jeez if 1998 Olympics was judged under COP, I am pretty sure she would have won easily.

    She was just at the end of her carrer physically when COP came around.

  18. #118
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Kwan was clearly past her prime by the time of the 2005 Worlds. To be honest I think her prime was 1996-2001 but she of course is such a great skater she still won many events and medals from 2002-2004 (even U.S Nationals in 2005) while not being in her prime any longer. I think in her prime she would have done quite well under COP. Whether she would have done better or worse depends on which competitors you are referring to mainly.

  19. #119
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Searching for Sergei Verbillo's lost stache
    Posts
    715
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Bobek's sequences generally did not have the difficulty one can see in Kwan's. Her individual spirals were absolutely breath-taking though.

    I also think Kwan was better at incorporating spirals into choreography than Bobek could.
    Bobek didn't include a change of edge, right? Instead she just moved from position to position?

    For some reason, the only skater i can think of, that resembles Kwan's spiral, is the one by Caro. Kostner. Neither are flexible skaters but the extension is impressive. The edge is also similar, as well as the fact that they both smile during.

    And of today's skaters, i think the top ladies are the ones who are the best at incorporating spirals into their programs- they seem to make it 'stand out'/attention grabbing, even if the quality of position is not as great, as say, the younger and less experienced American girls (like Mirai).

  20. #120
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,176
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    She was just at the end of her carrer physically when COP came around.
    Yes. But it was amazing that she was still able to land as many jumps as she did even in 2005. She was still doing lutzes and flips and 3 jump combos at 2005 COI.

    Having said that, I doubt she could do much about the spins. She was a clean spinner, with good technique and all, but just doesn't have the ultimate flexibility to go on and on with the features. She did show some new spinning tricks near the end of her skating career but those weren't enough (and the tricks also really affected the quality of the spins which were great in 2003 and 2004).

    It's interesting to note that after she retired, ISU brought in more features which were not related to flexibility: holding spirals for 6 seconds; holding a spin position for 8 revs or more etc...

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •