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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    My thinks-of-herself-as-an-ultrafeminist-but-in-reality-is-more-June-Cleaver-than-Gloria-Steinem MIL was adamant that Elin should take the kids to Sweden and Tiger should not be able to see them for five years. Her logic is that he's done severe damage to the kids by causing their mother stress, including during pregnancy, and that he cannot be anywhere near them during this critical time in their development.
    I missed who said Elin should take kids to Sweden for five years, MIL?

    I was thinking how if they are apart, one or both must be having a very sad Christmas. He was stupid and very very bad, but he's not a criminal. The non-residential parent should have still had visitation privileges, even this year. No matter how bad he has been, the kids and the parents should be able to see each other, if only for a while, on holidays. We don't know what is going on behind the scenes, maybe it's too early for court decisions, but I am surprised that he didn't get her there over the separation issue. I am not sure if being so far away in Sweden is a good idea, not just for t his year but forever, if that's where they're going. I can't imagine midweek visitation. But he can affort jets, so maybe it's possible. But holidays should be shared. OTOH if he just wanted to be away on a boat somewhere playing cards with his boyfriends, ya sure, well, then...grrr.

    I have a friend with adult children. She did Thanksgiving, their dad did Christmas. She barely made it through latter holiday.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    My thinks-of-herself-as-an-ultrafeminist-but-in-reality-is-more-June-Cleaver-than-Gloria-Steinem MIL was adamant that Elin should take the kids to Sweden and Tiger should not be able to see them for five years. Her logic is that he's done severe damage to the kids by causing their mother stress, including during pregnancy, and that he cannot be anywhere near them during this critical time in their development.

    I'd be interested to hear other views on this opinion.
    In my opinion, unless the other parent (be it the mother or the father) is dangerous to their children (on drugs, violent, criminal, etc.) or is just a plain horrible person (really, really bad in general; someone you would not want to expose your kids to), they should be in their children's lives. I'm very adamant about adults trying to resolve things between themselves without putting kids in the middle. And using kids to get back at the other person is just plain vile, IMO. Hopefully Elin won't be one of those people.

    I've had friends without fathers, I've dated men without fathers. In all of them there was such a horrible, painful void that could never be fulfilled, even though they were generally happy and successful. Having seen that, having experienced that, if I ever had kids and things didn't work out with their father, unless he was any of the things I mentioned above, I would try my hardest to get past our own differences and let my kids have him in their lives. And if that would not be possible, I would try not to poison their minds with my own bad feelings toward him. As happened with my friend in college. Her mother divorced her father when he became a hardcore alcoholic (he could not be helped and eventually died) But she did more than that. She tried to poison my friend's mind with her own hate for years. And when my friend was telling me about all those bad things her mother told her about him, I could see she didn't really want to hate him, she wanted to love him.

    Tiger might be a cheater, a sex addict, a liar, but that doesn't mean he can't be a good father. If I were in Elin's situation, I'd probably want to get divorced, but I would try to get over my own hurt to allow him to be there for his kids. Marriages may not last, but parenthood is forever.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Another thought to throw out there - at one family event in the past few days, I asked the questions, "what does Tiger owe Elin, and what does Elin deserve?"

    My thinks-of-herself-as-an-ultrafeminist-but-in-reality-is-more-June-Cleaver-than-Gloria-Steinem MIL was adamant that Elin should take the kids to Sweden and Tiger should not be able to see them for five years. Her logic is that he's done severe damage to the kids by causing their mother stress, including during pregnancy, and that he cannot be anywhere near them during this critical time in their development.

    I'd be interested to hear other views on this opinion.
    What came first, the marriage or the children? So if they separate it's just the marriage that's over, not their relationship with their children, right?

    Tiger is not an axe murderer. He seems to be a loser in the marriage department, but that doesn't mean he can't or doesn't love his children. I believe you can not spoil children by loving them too much. On that basis, even tho The Wood's marriage is probably over, that doesn't mean that both shouldn't be around for their kids. And at this stage of the game, with all the f-up's Tiger has done, his kids are probably the only people on this planet that love him for who he is, not what he can do. (shrug)

    And both Elin and Tiger should be working together to protect and love their children. Whatever acrimony exists between them, deal with it between yourselves. Do not use your kids as hostages.
    Gone crazy. Be back soon.

  4. #44
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    I think in this particular situation she should have every right to move back to Sweden with those children. He has turned their private lifes into late-night talk show punch lines and she will never get peace from paparazzi if she stays in America.

    He should get visitation though and I think they need to work out some arrangement when he does see them but I think she needs to be in friendly territory with family and friends nearby. That in turn will be good for the children as she'll likely be more able and open to finding a peaceful settlement with Tiger regarding the children and visitations and moving past her animosity. Trap her inside a mansion in America and she'll become isolated and bitter and noone wins, least of all her children.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    My thinks-of-herself-as-an-ultrafeminist-but-in-reality-is-more-June-Cleaver-than-Gloria-Steinem MIL was adamant that Elin should take the kids to Sweden and Tiger should not be able to see them for five years. Her logic is that he's done severe damage to the kids by causing their mother stress, including during pregnancy, and that he cannot be anywhere near them during this critical time in their development.

    I'd be interested to hear other views on this opinion.
    I hope you don't need people on an internet board to tell you how fcuked up a viewpoint that is.
    Disclaimer: The post contained herein represents the opinions of a fan and may or may not bear any relation to reality.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by AYS View Post
    I hope you don't need people on an internet board to tell you how fcuked up a viewpoint that is.
    Um...she said it was her MIL`s POV, and she never did say what she thought of it.
    Haunting the Princess of Pink since 20/07/11...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Really View Post
    Um...she said it was her MIL`s POV, and she never did say what she thought of it.
    She did ask our views on the matter:
    I'd be interested to hear other views on this opinion.
    And my view is, I hope she doesn't need our view to know that it's a fcuked up view (IMO).
    Disclaimer: The post contained herein represents the opinions of a fan and may or may not bear any relation to reality.

  8. #48
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    Maybe Jenny just wanted to know how many other people shared the view.

    FTR, I think it's a really f*cked up viewpoint. But there are a lot of people on this board and off it who express ideas that I think are representative of a pretty f*cked up viewpoint, so I don't know that you can rule out anything just because it seems really messed up to you.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  9. #49
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    Prancer, I don't quite know what you mean by not ruling something out just because it seems messed up to me. Rule it out in what way? Do you mean:

    1) not ruling it out as a sensible or non-f*cked up viewpoint: yes, IMO I can rule it out as sensible or non-f*cked up, IMO.
    2) not ruling it out as being a viewpoint held by others: you are right there, I can't rule it out there, for whatever that's worth. That wouldn't change my opinion though.
    3) not ruling it out from a legal standpoint. I would certainly hope it doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, but, heck, we voted a fool in as president of the US back in the late '90s, so I'm not sure I can depend on individual judges to not be fools either, so....
    Disclaimer: The post contained herein represents the opinions of a fan and may or may not bear any relation to reality.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AYS View Post
    2) not ruling it out as being a viewpoint held by others: you are right there, I can't rule it out there, for whatever that's worth. That wouldn't change my opinion though.
    I wouldn't expect it to. But I also wouldn't be at all surprised if people on a messageboard didn't necessarily tell Jenny what a f*cked up idea it is, either.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  11. #51
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    Do you think going after your skirt chasing husband with a golf club wanting to beat his brains in, ISN'T going to affect the kids?

    Actions speak louder than words!

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurenjm View Post
    Do you think going after your skirt chasing husband with a golf club wanting to beat his brains in, ISN'T going to affect the kids?

    Actions speak louder than words!
    Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.
    Disclaimer: The post contained herein represents the opinions of a fan and may or may not bear any relation to reality.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by AYS View Post
    Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.
    While I don't think that what Elin did was okay... As LONG as it was a one time thing I don't think she should lose her kids for it. (Now a repetitive thing is another story).

    And I disagree with the idea that Tiger's actions aren't harmful to the kids. Trust me I think they can be. It first of all hurt their mother, second set a really bad example. I mean Tiger's father was a philanderer, and now he is....There's a pattern there.

    My father was in and out of relationships, and because of it, I think my brothers and I all have commitment issues. This being said, I don't think that Tiger shouldn't get to see his kids. But I definetly think that Elin should get something in there are about him not bring the many girls around his kids. Because introducing them to tons of chicks could be really damaging. I.e maybe something like only an engagement can the kids met the girl or something like that.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AYS View Post
    Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.
    I'd like to think you'd wait to see if she had a history of abuse and not take her children away on an isolated incident of her loosing it to the point of swinging a golf club. And if she did have a history of abuse how does that reflect on her husband who would leave her alone with those children while he not only travelled to play golf but travelled to get laid. His actions don't indicate he was worried about her being alone with those kids imo.
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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by marbri View Post
    I'd like to think you'd wait to see if she had a history of abuse ...
    Nothing on the PGA grapevine to indicate Elin has a problem. This appears to be an isolated incident. Frankly, I can see myself whacking him, but I would have chosen a wedge for the heavier swing weight!
    AceOn6, the golf loving skating fan

  16. #56
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    Well, I'm with all of you, and told my MIL that in no uncertain terms

    Like many of you have said, Tiger is clearly a bad husband, but there's no evidence to indicate that he's also a bad father. MIL's argument was that by being a bad husband, he's hurt the children's mother (including during pregnancy), and that makes him a bad father.

    I said I don't think it's right to punish the children for what happened between their parents - depriving them of a father they might very well love, and then giving them the uphill challenge of developing a relationship with a virtual stranger five years later. (Because this was her big thing - that at their age, so young, they need to be with their mother - a happy mother - above all else.)

    I did try it the other way - citing an example known to both of us of a woman who cheated on her husband, then left him and married the new guy, breaking her first husband's heart in the process. Should she have been cut off from her schoolage children? I said no, because in spite of everything, she's a great mother, and ten years later, her children are well adjusted and mature and happy. This is when MIL countered that it's because Tiger's children are so young that it's so important they and their mother are protected from the influence of eville.

    There's also the issue of the grandparents. Tiger's mother was part of their lives, and now all of a sudden they don't get to see Grandma anymore? The grandparent relationship can be very valuable to children, and given that it won't be one they enjoy throughout their lives, it would be awful to take away 5 years of it.

    (I didn't suggest this one to MIL as I didn't want to draw attention to the fact that I have neglected to give her grandchildren - but maybe I should have asked her how she'd feel if her hypothetical grandchildren were cut off from her sons and therefore her too for the first 5 years of their lives. She no doubt would have discarded the argument based on the idea that her sons are )

    On the idea of taking the kids to Sweden where it's a friendlier environment, I'm not so sure. If the kids are surrounded by Elin's family and friends and the general population most of the time, they could easily turn against their father. Even when the parents manage to keep their battle away from the children, others are often not as careful.

    On the point of Elin's attack with the golf club, I do think that's worth discussing. We should absolutely not condemn her based on one incident, particularly when it seems she had a lot to be pissed off at (I myself have thrown the odd object in the general direction of hubby for far lesser offenses!).

    However, if we are to imagine for a moment that their behaviour that night was indicative of how they react to conflict or crisis - do we prefer the kids to be with the person who attempted to walk away, perhaps to cool down or give the other person time to do so, or the person who resorted to violence? If I was the judge, I'd want to know a bit more about how Tiger and Elin have dealt with issues in the past, and what that could mean for the future.

    Thank you for all your interesting inputs on this.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by AYS View Post
    I hope you don't need people on an internet board to tell you how fcuked up a viewpoint that is.
    And no, I don't! I just wanted to get other opinions and inputs into it because I was interested first to see if anyone shared her viewpoint, and second to delve further into the more complicated aspects of the idea.

    It was actually a good conversation with MIL, because we naturally also got into the other major cases of celebrity philandering, including Clinton and Prince Charles. Aside from the aspect of it all, I find it interesting to take these high profile examples/cases and dissect them to discuss the broader implications for society and the rest of us. (We did this on the Polanski thread too not long ago, and I found it really fascinating.)

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AYS View Post
    Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.
    Who knew!

  19. #59
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    Jenny, they are both to blame in this. Tiger certainly is a bad husband and most likely an absent and not so good father, his life dictates this. Elin also is at fault for her behavior.

    We do not know what really happened behind their doors despite what other's say.

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    According to an old SI article about Elin, Tiger refused to go to Sweden with her for their daughter's baptism claiming he had to be in Vegas for a charity event. Of course, the article then drooled over his messianic commitment to charity work, but knowing what we know now, he probably was more interested in something else in Vegas.

    I'm thinking he's not up for world's greatest father anytime soon. Sounds more like he's an absentee father. On a professional level, that's a necessity, but some of his absences are clearly not professional obligations. That doesn't mean he should be removed from his children's lives entirely, but I think there's little argument for giving him custody.

    And is at all realistic to think that either Tiger or Elin or anyone else ever spends a significant amount of time alone with those kids? People of their station are usually surrounded by an army of nannies and personal assistants and it is silly to think that Tiger Woods is so down to earth and what-not that they don't have that.

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