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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisyculver View Post
    The issue about foreign-native skaters is very popular nowadays. I think, if Kati lives in Hungary 3 years already, has Hungarian ancestry and speaks the language fluently, she can't be called "a foreigner who has taken all the possibilities from the "real" Hungarian skaters".
    I think it's more like a part of the mentality. People with Hungarian ancestry, who live in the surrounding countries and were separated from Hungary with the treaty of Trianon are considered more "real Hungarians" than those who had to leave the country for political or ethnical reasons (like in in WW2 or in 1956). Even their support in politics is much stronger, than the support of those who left the country but preserved their ties to their origins. It's sad and embarrassing, and we have to deal with it every day.


    There was another long article posted today, from the same journalist. Very strong tone, but nothing but the truth.


    Intrigue, protest and scandal in the figure skating scene
    http://www.origo.hu/sport/egyeb/teli...lyazoknal.html
    by Tibor Fabik

    In the Hungarian figure skating scene we can rarely hold a national championships peacefully, this one was not left without a scandal either. The fact that the Hungarian Figure Skating Committee failed at knowing the most recent rules of figure skating and didn't even know how many ladies can be sent to the European Figure Skating Championships is only a minor issue. The Committee plans to send Marton Marko to the ECH after his surprising win at the national championships last weekend, despite making it clear at a meeting on the 17th October that Tigran Vardanjan - the best current male skater of the country - would be named to the world team. The latter won't accept the decision and will petition at the chairman of the Hungarian National Skating Federation.

    The written report of that October 17th meeting gives a pathetic image of the Hungarian Figure Skating Committee, because it's full of grammatic mistakes, the ECH team member skater Katherine Hadford's name is spelled incorrectly ('Hartford'), we can feel free to be shocked reading the city name 'Zürick' (instead of Zurich, the Swiss city), as well as the incorrect abbreviations for the ECH and WCH [in Hungarian grammar, there should be no punctuation between the letters in these abbreviations, and the report had...].

    The most important note of this report by the Committee, led by Eszter Jurek (73): in ladies and men singles Julia Sebestyen and Tigran Vardanjan will be named to the national team. They didn't know at that time what the competitors knew long ago, that in the ladies competition, Hungary has two entries.

    At the national championships last weekend, the men's competition had an unexpected result, where Marton Marko finished ahead of Tigran Vardanjan, and the Committee changed its mind and decided to send Marko to the ECH. Father and coach of the silver medalist, Gurgen Vardanjan - who also happens to be the coach of former ECH champion Julia Sebestyen - asked the committee to have a test skate so that his - internationally much more successful - son can prove his abilities, it was was for naught, they denied them this option. Eszter Jurek told [origo]: Marton Marko has improved a lot recently and it did not occur before that the national champion was left at home and not sent to the ECH.

    Gurgen Vardanjan says this is not true. "There was a similar case, not even long ago. That time, they [the Committee] wanted to clear the way for Zsolt Kerekes so that he can go to the ECH (against Szabolcs Vidrai), and they even managed to have him win the national championships. In the end, however, Vidrai was sent to the ECH that year because internationally he was much more successful. So Aunt Tucsi didn't remember correctly. But this is not important now. What is important that there were already two test skates this year between Tigran and Marci and Tigran won both with a huge lead, and he also got almost 70 points more at the competition of Graz, Austria. Tigran scored 169 points there, 110 points for the freeskate alone, while Marci earned 100 points in total. The judges were very kind with Marci at nationals, but still only gave him 151 here. Looking at these facts, it is out of question who should go to the ECH. The committee already decided on the 17th October that Tigran will go. Tigran didn't have a good outing at the national championships, but Aunt Tucsi and the Committee backed out of a test skate before the ECH. In this form, it's very unfair" said Gurgen Vardanjan angrily. He added an important detail: Marko's coach, Andras Szaraz [former coach of Julia Sebestyen] is also a deciding member of the Committee.

    The question is clear: how can the coach of the most successful Hungarian ladies skater, Julia Sebestyen not be a member of the governing body of the Committee? Gurgen Vardanjan said: "I was a member for years, but during the last voting procedure, I was swept aside because they were giving away their votes among eachother. This governing body was a place for regular intrigues, the members have no knowledge about even the simplest rules of figure skating, as it just turned out with the ECH ladies quota. On the top of it, Aunt Tucsi said she only made a mistake beause the rules changes recently, which is not true at all."

    After a little search, I [the journalist] found out that the "new rule" about the ladies quota is valid for about 10 years now, it can be found in the latest ISU rulebook, in points 2/b and c of paragraph 378.

    Gurgen Vardanjan sent his petition to the leadership of the Hungarian National Skating Federation too, and he didn't even mention there that on the two past test skates his son finished much better. He only mentions the competition of Graz, where Fabio Bianchetti was the technical controller of the men's competition, who is a member of the ISU figure skating technical committee. The technical specialist was Terry Kubicka, US champion and 1976 olympic competitor, and to question their expertise would be unwise.

    "Tigran suffered an ankle injury in November and couldn't practice for two weeks, and he had a hard time dealing with the sudden death of his grandfather too, since they were really close. [If we look at the national championships and the competition of Graz] the two skaters are equal in results this season, and I don't think that only this competition should decide between them and who should be sent to the international competitions in 2010. There is a precedence that the final placements of the national championships didn't grant the membership to the national team immediately. I ask the leadership of the Federation to examine the incorrect decision of the figure skating committee, which is not the first one made in this season" says Vardanjan's petition. He also added with bold letters: "the Hungarian figure skating committee has no written criteria for the selections to international competitions in 2010, nor do they have a clear criteria about what the participating skaters need to fulfill."


    Photo of Eszter Jurek, head of the figure skating committee:
    http://www.origo.hu/i/0912/20091223jurek245.jpg

    Photo of Tigran Vardanjan and Katherine Hadford at the ECH 2008 in Zagreb, Croatia:
    http://www.origo.hu/i/0912/20091223hadfordti1.jpg

  2. #342
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    Thanks a lot again, our Translator-in-Chief!!
    The current situation in Hungarian figure skating seems to be a mess and The Federation definitely needs "fresh bood", new people, who can make decisions which are reasonable and work for the improvement of the sport.
    I think a test skate between Tigran and Marko could be a best solution. And there is nothing bad or unfair about it.
    "the Hungarian figure skating committee has no written criteria for the selections to international competitions in 2010, nor do they have a clear criteria about what the participating skaters need to fulfill."
    Well, no critea, no rules, full freedom of action. So, Tigran can go to the EC. It seems that decisions and unwritten responsibilities become a too heavy burden for the Hungarian Figure Skating Committee.

  3. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by igniculus View Post
    People with Hungarian ancestry, who live in the surrounding countries and were separated from Hungary with the treaty of Trianon are considered more "real Hungarians" than those who had to leave the country for political or ethnical reasons (like in in WW2 or in 1956).
    Erm, should we expect them to stake a claim to Zoltan Kelemen one of these days given the current state of the Hungarian men's program? I can't think of any other ethnic Hungarian skaters that would fit into the same category.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    Erm, should we expect them to stake a claim to Zoltan Kelemen one of these days given the current state of the Hungarian men's program? I can't think of any other ethnic Hungarian skaters that would fit into the same category.
    No, I think not. While Hungarian fans often look for the results of Zoltan, generally they don't think he should skate for a different country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by igniculus View Post
    No, I think not. While Hungarian fans often look for the results of Zoltan, generally they don't think he should skate for a different country.
    Fwiw, back in the day, I was in total denial that Gheorghe Chiper actually skated for ROU, not HUN.

  6. #346
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    Many thanks, igniculus, for the great translation!!!!

    It's scary how little they know about the ISU rules, when they could have just read FSU to find out what they needed to know.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by daisyculver View Post
    But in case of Maxim Zavozin, I wouldn't grant him citizenship, because he mentioned himself that he needs it only to go to the Olympics. Moreover, he has spent not so much time in Hungary, has no Hungarian roots and speaks the language only a little bit. From my point of view, if he doesn't acquire citizenship now, there will be an incentive for him to continue skating for Hungary till the next Olympics And he and Nora can perfectly go to ECs and WCs even if Maxim is not a Hungarian citizen.
    While part of me agrees with you, at the same time, this affects Nora as well, and Nora absolutely is "truly" Hungarian.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisyculver View Post
    But in case of Maxim Zavozin, I wouldn't grant him citizenship, because he mentioned himself that he needs it only to go to the Olympics. Moreover, he has spent not so much time in Hungary, has no Hungarian roots.
    Max and his revolving citizenship but yes, sad for Nora and so many other girls, just one of the hazards skating with a foreign partner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    While part of me agrees with you, at the same time, this affects Nora as well, and Nora absolutely is "truly" Hungarian.
    Well, yes, it wouldn't be very nice for Nora. But I guess she knew that certain difficulties are possible if you start skating with a foreign partner (who had Russian citizenship first, then changed it for the American one not so long ago, and now wants to become a Hungarian citizen). Missing the Olympics is not good, certainly, but it's not the end of the world. There are EC, WC and GP.

  10. #350
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    Zavozin didn't change his citizenship: he holds dual Russian and US citizenship. He grew up in the US because his parents were there and brought him as a child. He didn't shop for US citizenship, whatever the case is concerning Hungary. He spent far more time in the US than Hadford has in Hungary.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Zavozin didn't change his citizenship: he holds dual Russian and US citizenship.
    It means it's a very special case, because according to the Russian legislation Russian citizens can't hold dual citizenship with the exception of very few countries (the USA is not on the list).
    He spent far more time in the US than Hadford has in Hungary.
    Indeed, no question about that. The matter is how much time he spent in Hungary.
    Do not think I'm against Maxim, though. I rather sympathize with him

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    Quote Originally Posted by daisyculver View Post
    Well, yes, it wouldn't be very nice for Nora. But I guess she knew that certain difficulties are possible if you start skating with a foreign partner (who had Russian citizenship first, then changed it for the American one not so long ago, and now wants to become a Hungarian citizen). Missing the Olympics is not good, certainly, but it's not the end of the world. There are EC, WC and GP.
    Nóra wished to keep skating for Hungary, but there was no suitable partner for her in her own country. What was she supposed to do?

    ETA - Fwiw, just so you peeps know, acquiring Hungarian citizenship via naturalization takes 8 years, so if they didn't go for the expedited citizenship for Maksz either sooner or later, there would be no Olympics for H+Z in 2010 and 2014. Anyway, I hope it works out for them...

    Last edited by sbanet; 12-24-2009 at 08:58 PM.

  13. #353
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    What country is Nora Hoffman originally from?

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    He spent far more time in the US than Hadford has in Hungary.
    Indeed, but Hadford has a Hungarian family.

    Quote Originally Posted by KayMil01 View Post
    What country is Nora Hoffman originally from?
    She is a Hungarian.

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    greetings from the diaspora! ;)

    Kellemes ünnepeket!!!

    ...sorry if my last post up there wasn't so lucid , what I was saying is that after H+E split up, Nóra wanted to keep skating for HUN, but there weren't any suitable Hungarian partners for her - in Hungary- her own country. She had to find a partner from abroad. Fwiw, Liam Dougherty, whom she originally tried-out with, is iirc, 1/4 Hungarian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Zavozin didn't change his citizenship: he holds dual Russian and US citizenship. He grew up in the US because his parents were there and brought him as a child. He didn't shop for US citizenship
    According to numerous articles and interviews Max came to the US at 12 or 13, his father still resides in Moscow. Some will argue Max only acquired US citizenship with the hopes of making the US Olympic team with Morgan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by igniculus View Post
    Indeed, but Hadford has a Hungarian family.
    From a US point of view, everyone who wasn't Native American was an immigrant or ancestor of immigrants at some point, and Zavozin is as American as anyone else, regardless of family. I understand that it's viewed differently in Hungary, but as far as his US citizenship is concerned, his case isn't that different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomo View Post
    Some will argue Max only acquired US citizenship with the hopes of making the US Olympic team with Morgan.
    They could, and since I don't know him, I can't say for sure that he would have applied for citizenship later, even if he hadn't planned to skate for the US. However, it's quite possible that he might still have wanted a US passport, if only to make some travel easier and/or to be able to leave the country for years/stop being a resident temporarily and still have status to live and work in the US at will without worrying about visas. All of these are valid personal reasons for getting US citizenship if the person qualifies.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by daisyculver View Post
    It means it's a very special case, because according to the Russian legislation Russian citizens can't hold dual citizenship with the exception of very few countries (the USA is not on the list).
    According to the US State Department site, it is possible to hold US and Russian passports, as long as a Russian passport holder does not apply for a Russian visa for the US passport -- in which case it is likely that the person will be asked to renounce Russian citizenship -- and travels to Russia with a valid Russian passport.

    http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...#dual_citizens

    It sounds like a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. The US for the most part acts as if any other citizenships don't exist.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbanet View Post
    Nóra wished to keep skating for Hungary, but there was no suitable partner for her in her own country. What was she supposed to do?
    To take her chance, of course. And it's good she did
    Though, it doesn't imply that Maxim should be given Hungarian citizenship at his first request In case of the United States it was justified, as he lived there for a long time and competed for America for quite a number of years (and delivered results!)

    Quote Originally Posted by sbanet View Post
    Fwiw, Liam Dougherty, whom she originally tried-out with, is iirc, 1/4 Hungarian.
    Very precise data What was the method of measurement?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    According to the US State Department site, it is possible to hold US and Russian passports, as long as a Russian passport holder does not apply for a Russian visa for the US passport -- in which case it is likely that the person will be asked to renounce Russian citizenship -- and travels to Russia with a valid Russian passport.
    Governments always make it as difficult as possible
    Last edited by daisyculver; 12-25-2009 at 12:36 PM.

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    Does he get to keep the other two if he gets Hungarian citizenship? If so he would be very valuable to anyone of the three governments as a spy, 3 valid passports is unusual. Max Zavozin 007 (LOL)

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