Proposed tech requirement changes (ISU Congress June 2024)

[honey]

I feel the +2A+2A combos in pairs the past two seasons were just as ugly and wtf as the old jump series used to be back in early 90s. I didn’t need to see G/G hop around into a string of 2S or 1A any more than I needed to see the best today wrap themselves around a circle into unsynchronized 2As. Not cute on either front. I have no problem removing point getters that 99% of people look terrible doing.

Can we remove the illusion out of the layback as a feature next?

 

[EdgyIceMarks]

Something I've noticed while reading Technical Requirements for International Novice Competitions for the 2024/25 Season is that the following changes to jump combination/sequences in a Well-Balanced Free Skating program apply to all of the Novice disciplines:

There may be up to
- two (2) jump combinations or
- one (1) jump combination without using an Euler (half-loop) 1) and one (1) jump sequence.
One jump combination or jump sequence can consist of up to three (3) jumps, the other up to two (2) jumps.

Now we have not seen any official word on whether there wil be changes to a Well-Balanced Free Skating program with respect ot jump layout on the Junior/Senior division. But we know that there has been word around that the ISU is also planning to reduce the number of jumps in a Well-Balanced Free Skating program for Junior/Senior from 7 to 6 as well. The natural question is, whether the ISU technical committee is also considering this new "2 jump combinations or 1 non-Euler combination+1 jump sequence" rule in Novice comps to Junior/Senior as well. If so, this has some far-reaching implications.

From now on I'll be talking as if the 6 jump elements, 2 jump combo rule will apply for certain (which to be fair we don't know will be the case). Note that this rule would imply that the maximum number of jumps one can do in the Free Skate would be
- One 3-jump element
- One 2-jump element
- Four solo jump elements
This means the number of individual jumps is down to 3x1+2x1+1x4=9. (The easiest way to see this is that there is one 2-jump element gone from the equation)

For most of the Elite Senior Women these days, being able to do 5 out of 6 types of triple jumps is standard, in the absence of a Triple Axel or Quad(s). 2 out of 5 types of triple jumps can be repeated. This means the optimal individual jump composition for most Women will be 7 triple jumps + 2 Double Axels, and nothing else. Back when there was an extra jump combination allowed, the skaters would usually involve some kind of connecting double jump, usually in the form of +2T or +2Lo, within their layout, this was inevitable unless you did some of the higher jump content AND could do demanding combinations. Now there is no room to do a non-Axel double jump without taking a noticeable cut to base value. So despite there being one less jump combination which may seem like a load off from the skater, this is actually a deceptively discerning technical rule change.

The biggest implication of this will be that it becomes really important being able to do 7 triples i.e. 5 out of 6 types of triple jumps. Since if one cannot, one has to waste a jump slot on a double jump during a combination, when other top Women aren't.

Also, +2A+2A sequences continue to become lucrative for Women if this rule applies to Junior/Senior, b/c it seems skaters find jump combinations entirely composed of double axel and triple jumps rather difficult. The alternative is a jump sequence with an Euler (one that involves both connecting Axels and Euler), but I'm not sure if many will go down this path.

For Men (and Women with higher technical content), the next step will be get rid of progressively easier jumps within this list and replace them with Triple Axel(s) and Quad(s). Ideally one would start subsituting away double axel(s) first, but in order to do so, one should be able to do the more difficult jump combinations/sequences. Triple Axel Sequences will become particularly lucrative as it will more manageably allow skaters to do away with double axels and maybe some of the easier triple jumps. Alternatively, Euler+Flip combinations are back in the menu, as no longer are Euler combinations burdened by needing to waste a jump slot on a 1Eu which has the base value of a Single Loop since it no longer is a listed jump. Some may go down the path of 3-3-3 or 4-3-3 combinations, if they can. (I wonder if any will go for a quad as the connecting jump of a combination at some point) And along the same lines, performing a double jump in combination will be a significant cut to base value, though tbf I think most men except for the top few will find it technically demanding to optimize jump layout within what they can execute b/c of the demands of needing to do jump combinations/sequences entirely consisting of triple jumps.

Note also that if this rule indeed applies in the form of the skater being allowed 2 jump combos or 1 non-Euler combo+1 sequence (the particular wording is important), this means one of the jump combinations need to be a 'standard' jump combination, optimally involving a +3T or maybe +3Lo. This means Women for instance can't just circumvent having to do a connecting +3T or +3Lo with an Euler combination or +2A+2A+SEQ as they have been able to do for the past two seasons while still doing a near-optimal jump layout.

Overall, IF the specified new rule for Novice comps were to also apply to Junior/Senior, the challenge for skaters will be performing the more difficult jumps compactly within their jump layout, minimizing the loss of points by ideally excluding double jumps entirely from their layout. This in turn incentizes going for difficulty in jump combinations. This has already been a thing for the Men though will become more pronounced, and will sharply discern between the technical content of Women than the past few seasons.

But we'll have to see how the rules end up getting worded and whether they pass, and whether they will actually remove a jump combination from the Well-Balanced Free Skate for Junior/Senior as some speculated. I can also see this not happening, b/c if they delete a jump combination from Junior/Senior then there is no difference in # of jumps performed between Advanced Novice, Junior and Senior in a well-balanced Free Skating program.

Can we remove the illusion out of the layback as a feature next?

Good news for you I guess? Quoting the Level of Difficulty communication in Singles & Pairs for the upcoming season

Windmill (illusion) is considered as a difficult movement for a feature only if it reaches close to a split position (at least 135 degrees). It can be awarded as a feature for spins only once in a program. Windmill is no longer considered as a difficult entry or exit.

 

[On My Own]

Good news for you I guess? Quoting the Level of Difficulty communication in Singles & Pairs for the upcoming season

YAY

 

[Marco]

I am glad the windmill difficult entry / exit feature is gone in that most, if not all, of those that I saw in the past seasons have been ugly. The windmill entrances had been like wobbly camels, and the exits had been coming to a halt. Butyrskaya and even Lipinski did nice windmills back in the days that had CONTROL out.

 

[Private Citizen]

I wish they'd have taken the weird knee slides out with the windmill / illusion.

And, yes, the reduction to six jumping passes will definitely motivate (or maybe even de facto require) x + 2A + 2A sequences for women.

Ideal jump layout, assuming two combos, is probably something like:
3Lz+3T
3Lz
3F+2A+2A
3F
3Lo
3S

Looks decent if your name is Ava Ziegler .

 

[Sylvia]

Phil Hersh published this in his blog today (April 24):

Changes in skating rules to limit jumps may make Malinin's record literally one for the ages — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

There is an old saying in sports that goes, “Records are made to be broken.” That may not apply to the world record men’s free skate score Ilia Malinin posted in winning the 2024 World Championships – as well as to several women’s world records – if the International Skating Union passes proposals

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

"While the formal agenda for the ISU Congress will not be made public until next week, the preliminary agenda includes the following changes to singles free skate programs recommended by the singles and pairs technical committee: ..."

 

[Karen-W]

Phil Hersh published this in his blog today (April 24):

Changes in skating rules to limit jumps may make Malinin's record literally one for the ages — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

There is an old saying in sports that goes, “Records are made to be broken.” That may not apply to the world record men’s free skate score Ilia Malinin posted in winning the 2024 World Championships – as well as to several women’s world records – if the International Skating Union passes proposals

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

"While the formal agenda for the ISU Congress will not be made public until next week, the preliminary agenda includes the following changes to singles free skate programs recommended by the singles and pairs technical committee: ..."

Also of relevance from the article regarding back flips:

Siao Him Fa has said that the sport should allow skaters to do more things that appeal to fans, and some in the ISU agree with him about backflips. Bianchetti said there is a proposal before the congress to take the illegal tag off the backflip.

And about quints:

Mallinin has also talked about quintuple jumps, yet to be tried or given official values. He may need one to break his own record,

Bianchetti said there will be discussion about changing the scale of values for various elements. “Quintuple jumps for the moment will not be included,” he added.

Soooooooo... if Ilia (or someone else) is able to land a quint and decides to use the extra 15 seconds in the program gained from one less jumping pass to throw in an illegal element like a QUINT... all he would suffer is a 2.0 deduction, right? And if he then lost even though he had just landed the first ever quintuple jump, would that be what it takes for the ISU to include them in the scale of values?

 

[Frau Muller]

Will the backflip be renamed “The Fa”? (Surya and the earlier men who performed it were way in the past.)

 

[Karen-W]

Will the backflip be renamed “The Fa”? (Surya and the earlier men who performed it were way in the past.)

Why? His last name is Siao Him Fa. Why not call it the Adam? Or maybe the French flip since Surya and Adam are both French, lol.

 

[vu2019]

Also of relevance from the article regarding back flips:


And about quints:



Soooooooo... if Ilia (or someone else) is able to land a quint and decides to use the extra 15 seconds in the program gained from one less jumping pass to throw in an illegal element like a QUINT... all he would suffer is a 2.0 deduction, right? And if he then lost even though he had just landed the first ever quintuple jump, would that be what it takes for the ISU to include them in the scale of values?

A quint isn't in the scale of values, but wouldn't be an illegal element. The only illegal element relevant to singles is "somersault type jumps" (page 105): https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file

 

[Karen-W]

A quint isn't in the scale of values, but wouldn't be an illegal element. The only illegal element relevant to singles is "somersault type jumps" (page 105): https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file

So, ow would it be marked by the tech panel? As an over-rotated quad?

 

[gkelly]

So, ow would it be marked by the tech panel? As an over-rotated quad?

How would a double walley be marked? Would it just be ignored?

Probably the same for any jump not in the SoV.

 

[Karen-W]

How would a double walley be marked? Would it just be ignored?

Probably the same for any jump not in the SoV.

Would it count as a jumping pass though?

 

[gkelly]

Would it count as a jumping pass though?

Not in that case

Of course, it's highly likely that a quint attempt would be severely underrotated, in which case it might well be called as a quad

 

[Karen-W]

Not in that case

Of course, it's highly likely that a quint attempt would be severely underrotated, in which case it might well be called as a quad

Well, that's what we all thought about the 4A based on Yuzu's 4A attempts. And then Ilia came along...

 

[Frau Muller]

Why? His last name is Siao Him Fa. Why not call it the Adam? Or maybe the French flip since Surya and Adam are both French, lol.

Last name, like Salchow! He’s my FA…as in “FA went FA’… FAR!” At 2024 Worlds!
Love my FA!

 

[On My Own]

So, ow would it be marked by the tech panel? As an over-rotated quad?

It would not.

Well, that's what we all thought about the 4A based on Yuzu's 4A attempts. And then Ilia came along...

That's not what was happening with Hanyu's attempts. They clearly had more rotation in them than the average 3A, and therefore the 4A<< calls (and the eventual 4A< call) were valid.

 

[Sylvia]

Off-topic: @Frau Muller Adam shortens his last/family name to SIAO (his instagram handle, for example).
He apparently appreciates the fan nickname "Slay" so much that he recently created a YouTube channel "Adam Slay Him Fa."

ETA: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/adam-slay-him-fa-fan-thread.111746/

 

[Coco]

This must not be new, but I don't recall skaters making use of these jumps...

Choreographic sequences:A Choreographic Sequence consists of at least two different skating1) movements like spirals, arabesques, spreadeagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, any jumps with maximum of 2 revolutions, spins, etc. Steps and turns may be usedto link the two or more different movements together.

 

[Karen-W]

This must not be new, but I don't recall skaters making use of these jumps...

wouldn't that include stag leaps, Russian splits, falling leaves, etc?

 

[On My Own]

This must not be new, but I don't recall skaters making use of these jumps...

It's not new.

 

[Coco]

Yes...as I said

I think of leaps and jumps as being different, but I suppose they aren't technically if the leap is landing on 1 foot. So the issue is rotational "leaps" can rotate up to 2 times?

But the way this is written, it seems like someone could do a series of single axels or double lutzes for no points beyond the points earned for the choreographic sequence. So how would that work? That can't be right...?

ETA: If they can do listed jumps (max 2 rotations), someone needs to bring back Carol Heiss Jenkins cw single axel - ccw single axel trick

 

[kwanfan1818]

The base would be the choreo step sequence base.

 

[On My Own]

I think of leaps and jumps as being different, but I suppose they aren't technically if the leap is landing on 1 foot. So the issue is rotational "leaps" can rotate up to 2 times?

Well things like split falling leaf are indeed jumps. It's basically a half loop. Russian Split is a split half flip.

 

[On My Own]

ETA: If they can do listed jumps (max 2 rotations), someone needs to bring back Carol Heiss Jenkins cw single axel - ccw single axel trick

Idk about double, but I feel like we've seen 1.5 jumps? Jin Boyang used to do one tuck 1.5 toeloop iirc in his 2016 LP. Feel like some Russians who weren't with Eteri also did (and not necessarily just the girls either).

ETA: Oh, also, I would guess delayed axels are allowed.

 

[EdgyIceMarks]

Ah so Hersh's article pretty much confirms some of the big agendas of interest for the upcoming ISU congress
- Number of jump elements in the free skate down from 7 to 6
- Number of jump combinations in the free skate down from 3 to 2
- Limiting the number of repetitions of jumps of the same type (regardless of revolution) to 3
- Choreographic Spins (which we knew about)
- Changes to scales of values

 

[Karen-W]

Ah so Hersh's article pretty much confirms some of the big agendas of interest for the upcoming ISU congress

Most important - the Congress proposals are set to be released next week.

 

[zebobes]

Off-topic: @Frau Muller Adam shortens his last/family name to SIAO (his instagram handle, for example).

This is because Siao Him Fa is the phonetic version of his full Chinese Name, so which makes Siao his surname. I've never met any other Chinese person who does it in this order, but the world is full of variations! My English middle name happens to be the phonetic version of my Chinese given name.

Ah so Hersh's article pretty much confirms some of the big agendas of interest for the upcoming ISU congress
- Number of jump elements in the free skate down from 7 to 6
- Number of jump combinations in the free skate down from 3 to 2
- Limiting the number of repetitions of jumps of the same type (regardless of revolution) to 3
- Choreographic Spins (which we knew about)
- Changes to scales of values

So the 3 jump maximum is an additional rule added to the Zayak rules, and not a replacement of current rules.

With only nine jumping slots in the free, you could imagine someone ending up with only two kinds of jumps, with 2 4Toes, 2 3Toes, and 2Toes, and a 3A and 2 2A. Not that this kind of layout would be smart points wise, but it would have been a possibility without the 3 jump maximum rule.

 

[On My Own]

My English middle name happens to be the phonetic version of my Chinese given name.

This is actually usually true, heh.

 

[clairecloutier]

This is because Siao Him Fa is the phonetic version of his full Chinese Name, so which makes Siao his surname. I've never met any other Chinese person who does it in this order, but the world is full of variations! My English middle name happens to be the phonetic version of my Chinese given

So, “Him Fa” is Adam’s Chinese given name, or “first” name in a Western sense?