Zhang/Zhang should be credited with the first Throw Quad Salchow

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by koolloop, May 8, 2012.

  1. koolloop

    koolloop New Member

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    With Dan Zhang recently having retired from competition, I thought this would be a good time to start this thread.
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    To my knowledge in skating history, besides the Quadruple Lutz performed by Brandon Mroz this past season, there is only one other element that was performed first outside of international competition. However, it did not get credit from the ISU.

    This element was the Throw Quadruple Salchow.

    Many people are familiar with the unsuccessful attempt by Zhang/Zhang (CHN) at the 2006 Olympic Games.
    However, just a few weeks before the Olympics, Zhang/Zhang landed a Throw Quadruple Salchow at the national games.
    This was performed in early 2006, 18 months before Vise/Trent (USA) were credited as the first to land this element.

    As many people would know from last year, Brandon Mroz (USA) landed a Quadruple Lutz jump in a minor competition held in his home rink. Despite it not being an international, ISU-sanctioned competition, he was nevertheless given credit by the ISU as the first ever to land the jump.

    Many people, including myself disagreed with this somewhat rash decision by the ISU to allow non ISU-sanctioned competitions to count for international firsts in elements. Nevertheless, the ISU has set it's precedent, and now if there is video evidence, jumps done in national competition will count towards international firsts.


    Now, by the ISU's own criteria, I believe Zhang/Zhang should be credited as the first to land this element. As seen in the video, it is very clear that she took off, completed 4 revolutions, and landed cleanly. There is no doubt.

    But would the ISU ever re-ratify an element, so to speak?
     
  2. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I would guess they probably wouldn't. It would really open a big can of worms. Results from competitions generally can't be changed after-the-fact even if there was an error. For example, the ISU admitted there was an error in the scoring of some lifts at the GP final (and I believe up until that point in the season), which would not have changed the overall results to any competitions IIRC, but would have made Virtue & Moir the winners of the free dance at the GPF. However, the GPF scores themselves were not changed.

    Therefore, I don't think they would go back and re-ratify old jump attempts and take away previous "records"/"firsts" from those who currently hold them. Vise & Trent were the first to land in ISU competition and that's what their "first" states. I don't think Brandon has landed the quad lutz internationally yet (correct me if I'm wrong), so no one yet holds that honor. The ISU was presented with the video and acknowledged that it was clean, or "homologated" it, but I don't know if that's as official as ratifying it. Maybe someone could send the Zhangs' video to the ISU and they could recognize them on their accomplishment and "homologate" the jump, but not take away Vise & Trent's first? I wonder if anyone has ever formally sent the video to the ISU for that kind of consideration. It was a beautiful jump and deserves to be recognized in some way.

    It would be kind of fun to watch old videos of attempts at jumps if I was given all of the footage. :shuffle: I always wanted to try to make as complete a list as possible of everyone who has ever landed a quad, ladies who have landed triple/triples, etc.
     
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Mroz got credit for landing the 4Lz in his SP at 2011 NHK Trophy (-1 GOE), about 2 months after the ISU had "homolgated" his 4Lz in the club competition in Colorado Springs:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2011/gpjpn2011_Men_SP_Scores.pdf
    He fell on 4Lz< in his FS at NHK.
     
  4. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Mroz landed the quad Lutz at NHK Trophy. So he is also the first one to perform it in ISU competition. The negative GOE from some judges was a little strange, though (and uncalled for, IMHO).

    As for the quad throw Salchow performed by Zhang/Zhang in a national competition, I agree with RFOS. I don't know why the ISU "homologated" Mroz's quad Lutz landed at the Broadmoore Open. I would think US Figure Skating was pushing for it and sent the video etc,something the Chinese Federation didn't do when Zhang/Zhang executed the quad throw. I also think that the policy should stick to ratifying "firsts" only at international ISU events. Otherwise one day they'll end up ratifying jumps that have been landed in practice.
     
  5. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. It was rotated, but with a negative GOE, so I wonder how that would be taken into consideration by the ISU in terms of ratification, especially since the negative GOEs were likely due to a lack of introductory steps. His attempt at the Colorado Springs Invitational got slightly positive GOE as I recall, and I remember disagreeing with that because of a lack of steps. However, the *jump* was rotated and landed on one foot and would fit most definitions of a "clean jump" that probably would have been used to ratify jumps before IJS. Some jumps that were ratified by the ISU in the past certainly would have gotten -GOEs and possibly underrotation calls. It seems like the ISU could create some consistent guidelines for when to "ratify"/"homologate" elements now that each element gets a score, but it would be tricky to deal with situations like no steps into the jump in the short program, or slightly flawed jumps (that may not be deemed "clean") that could get a 0 GOE because they are very strong in other aspects, so maybe the base value and GOE alone shouldn't be the only criteria.
     
  6. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Did the ISU officially recognize the one he landed at NHK, despite the negative GOE?
     
  7. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Take a look at what Josef Sabovcik said, in Manleywoman's interview with him, about the ISU ratifying Kurt Browning's quad jump as the first quad jump in competition:

     
  8. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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  9. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Cool, thanks. :) At least that takes a little bit of potential controversy away from this particular case in that no one else has to have a first "overshadowed" by Mroz's jump at a minor USFSA non-qualifying competition, since Mroz has both firsts. I agree with you though that the ISU should only be in charge of recognizing elements completed under the ISU's jurisdiction, and to do otherwise does open a can of worms. With YouTube now we can often see cool things skaters do in practice and while I enjoy that, it definitely would be crazy for the ISU to ratify jumps completed in practice as any kind of "first."

    Another thing I just thought of. Even though I thought the "Top Jump" competition was a little silly at the time, maybe having that type of competition would encourage skaters to attempt difficult jumps they have done in practice but that aren't worth the risk in the context of a competitive program at a major event, and we might get some faster "firsts" if that competition were still around.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2012
  10. koolloop

    koolloop New Member

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    Thanks for the quote. That is very telling indeed.

    I read the interview (very interesting by the way, thanks!). Sabovcik did mention that his quad wasn't perfect either. The interview is also dated as of December 2008.

    Since the ISU changed their minds about the ratification of new elements just this past year... I don't know. Maybe there is a slim chance they would look at some of the records again. But if what Sabovcik said is true, then it would seem very unlikely. The ISU should be more consistent in their judgement though, otherwise it is not fair to the other skaters who have tried for these records.
     
  11. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    It's actually a shame that the Carruthers never tried their throw quad salchow at the Olympics in 1984. They trained one, but didn't need it when so many of their anticipated clse competitors messed up in the short program, and it made more sense to skate powerfully and clean.
     
  12. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Even though the Colo Springs Invitational was a USFS sanctioned event rather than an international, the technical officials calling the elements were on the ISU list. That point was mentioned in some of the ISU comments at the time. I don't think there is any chance of them ratifying anything after the fact based on video alone. In Mroz' case, they had ISU officials calling the quad a quad in real time.
     
  13. koolloop

    koolloop New Member

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    I see your point. But in the video footage shown, everything about the throw is absolutely clear -- there is even slow-mo replay at the end to further solidify it, which Mroz' footage did not have.