Yuzuru Hanyu to be coached by Brian Orser

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Miki Ando said somewhere that she and some of the other Japanese skaters -- I think Oda and Kozuka -- don't even speak Japanese with each other anymore: they speak English. Perhaps Hanyu wants to do what most of the top Japanese skaters have done during their careers: train with someone abroad with good facilities and lots of ice and learn (better) English, since it's used so much at competitions and shows.
     
  2. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

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    Wait, so there's a huge :puppet: KONSPIRACY :puppet: masterminded by an :puppet: agency :puppet:... and you don't even know if Hanyu's signed away his soul to one yet? :rofl:
     
  3. brina

    brina Well-Known Member

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    I love Hanyu's spirit.. he's just all over the place when he skates! If Orser can tame that, it will be a success.
     
  4. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Lanna made me laugh out loud and I needed that tonight! Thank you Lanna.
     
  5. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I don't need to. It is called deductive reasoning. Like I know there's no WMD or Axis of Evil despite the propaganda spewed by those 'governs' the air waves. If you believed then the 'official' press release, could it be you could be wrong here too?

    Besides, it is fairly simple to prove I am wrong. Just fact check it should be enough to suffice. :)



    Just don't tame it too much... I'd argue Hanyu's unique spirit is which makes him immensely watchable, unique and easy to root for, something I wish to see more men and especially women going at it bit more, less calculative and more wow.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  6. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    The number of very bright posters on this board is notable. So I think we understand deductive reasoning. There's a big difference between deductive reasoning and jumping to unsupported conclusions.

    I find your approach fascinating actually - you keep piling no information on misinformation on fictional assumptions and insist that taken together, it's a recognizable reasoning process (no info + wrong info/fictional assumptions = deductive reasoning?). I often say "maybe it's just me" but in this instance, I don't think it's just me.

    I am hopeful (and this really is my only concern here) that impressionable fans who want to learn something about the business of skating understand that they need to go elsewhere for concrete information and an acccurate business model - your deductive reasoning isn't going to help them.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  7. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

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    Since you're interested in reasoning, may I perhaps introduce you to my friend Occam and his razor? :)
     
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  8. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    agree.
     
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ ITA, more technique and presentation needs to be polished among skaters, than there are spirits needing to be tamed. To all the skaters, I say: "Awaken your spirits, and 'spirit us away' next season!" (i.e., in spite of CoP/IJS stifling ...)
     
  10. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Ah-HA! So if IMG's secret agenda is like the 'propaganda' machine that tried to make us believe in WMD, then using deductive reasoning that means ..... Dubya Bush is really the :puppet: controlling the :EVILLE: Japanese federation and their :puppet: Orser!! That explains why we haven't seen him in public much lately, because he has been so busy making sure that :puppet: Hanyu is directed to the right place.
     
  11. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    IMO, Hanyu / JSF(who pay Hanyu's training costs, after all) / Orser their own needs seem to fit together.
    Anyways, this move appears to be good for Hanyu who needs appropriate facilities.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  12. galaxy

    galaxy Active Member

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    Isn't it JFS's custom and tradition they send their promising skaters (not everybody but) to foreign coaches? Nobu to Lee Barkel, Shizuka to Callaghan, Miki to Jenkins and then Morozov, Mao to Artunian, Takahashi to Morozov. In their cases nobody kicked up such a big fuss about it. Once the name "Orser" is involved.....

    Poor Yuzuru..... Last year he had scary and awful experiences, saw a lot of painful things, his home was damaged, his rink was damaged. He once thought he had to quit skating. But he didn't give up. He hunted for a place to train while doing shows and earning money to continue skating. And this time from now on everytime he appears with Orser, some people will jump in and start to say "puppet", "evil agent and federation", and "conspiracies" things? He can have some peace.
     
  13. allezfred

    allezfred Old and Immature Admin Staff Member

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    os168, I suggest you call Plushenko and tell him that he's now a coach. I'm sure he'll be delighted to find out. :lol:
     
  14. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Allezfred, I am not totally insane you know ;P (no more than the typical FSUers anyway :lol:)

    This was a comment made by another poster Senorita from GS about Plushy being approached back in 2010. (Forgive me Senorita for not getting your permission, but it is relavent to this thread)

    Sign of respect from Russian Overlord.. makes Hanyu totally wicked!!! (Awesome) :)

    Re:Overedge

    Purple.... and the fifth.


    I know it is going to be an unpopular view when I took the risk to highlight the business side of the sport and speculate its roles driving for certain outcomes, especially consider the overwhelming majority of activities IMG has likely to do with this sport and likely the readers/posters of this forum. Yet it is so apparent there is a huge disparity of power between skaters vs. federations and agency with their tug of wars that are not seen in other sport(rule changes, favouritism, controversies etc.) that took the sport away from what it should be, all about the athletes and what goes on the ice. It is hard to do this unless I try to explain the role of agency beyond the PR friendly slogans, and I happen to have great insider's knowledge to know where and how the big money are really made and opportunities can be exploited. There may be small variance from market to market, but brokering and player tactics are old as time and it is easy to assess this industry because you know who the major players are.

    I have asked before what you think is likely the going rate for skating shows for an upcoming star like Rippon and Hanyu, the cost to manage them and whether these can be justify from merely 10% flat rate earnings given the types of shows and the number of shows they do a year, since I have already indicated they can't earn that much from prizes, and endorsements even if they medal. Why don't you put forward something, you don't have to name anyone in particular. Please bear in mind an established skater who earned his brilliant credentials to have become a PRO is no way going to command the same rate at their humble beginning when they are just starting out. No skaters get the same rate in the same show either, and it is likely a skater will modify their fees according to the type of shows based on their scale and budget throughout the year. Today's market is also very different from a few years ago. The type of market, the cost/budget running these shows, the scale for the show, where these show takes place. No one is going to pay more than they have to, and no skaters can command more than the market will allow them to, especially when the 2 of the biggest market for ice shows are ran by the very sport agency who also represent majority of the skaters in these 2 dominant countries.

    An agency's role is suppose to represent their clients to get them the best deals and bargain hard. This cannot be achieved if they also act as their employer, which is in direct conflict of interests. Show are driven by profit. They can profit through great box office, but also from keeping the cost down. Even though they are earning from both pocket of business (shows and talent management), as long as they can earn more from one pocket to another, the weaker pocket are always going to get bad deal. Apart from that, it shouldn't be hard to work out how much can say Mirai, Rippon will have to earn to justify agency's business interests, consider agency rate typically charge around $400 an hour (maybe less in figure skating?) If agency spend 100 hours a year (again simple numbers for sake of argument - which works out 12.5 days a year), they would gain $40,000 from clients earnings per year (which is reasonable from how much agency can get from a lead), which means the skaters will have to earn $400,000 a year from skating show to justify the agency's time managing them.

    Do you think an upcoming skaters can earn that much? Do you think agencies only spend 12.5 days manage their clients activity 1.5 weeks out of the entire year consider there are so many competitions to arrange per year to begin with let alone their training and day to day requirements? Clearly, that makes no sense. Again, I welcome you to challenge me with putting the right figures, but I personally believe 10% is very unlikely unless they also charge for additional services, or working extra deals behind the scene, or gain side benefit to justify their continued business interests. Let's take Patrick Chan, who's the most successful competitive skater in the world right now who likely to have skated the most at the biggest international shows worldwide, where he has the highest chance of commanding the most fee. If he still can't make ends meet based on his 250k+ training cost requirement a year having won practically everything, what are the chances agency able to earn enough so their management cost for Rippon, Abott, Mirai, Kanako can break even?
    So the natural conclusions are

    1) The agency charges more than 10%, or may be 10% + Additional service fees
    2) Agency are also getting a slice of federation money/subsidy which makes their business worthwhile.
    3) They save money from running their shows by guarantee exclusivity and low pay for their pool of talents.
    4) Money can be earned from bespoke services, and big deals to be made behind the scene to anyone who want to buy, exploits the wants and needs of this sporting industry with their complexity and conflicting environment. (Similar to arms dealers.)

    Skating is a brilliant sport, where athleticism and artistry can go hand in hand in the most cultured and refined way, yet the economic conditions for the skaters are positively primitive. Power in any situation lies in the organisation with the money, and the organisation who is most smart with earning their money. Competitive skaters are mostly young and vulnerable, and they rely on their friend and family's advice and support, federations, agencies and private sponsors. If they skaters were able to earn a great deal more to be independent, the federations will lose their power, influences and control, so will the sport agencies who also happen to run the biggest franchise shows in the richest nations that profit from their services, likely by keeping these costs low. These facts alone makes federation and agency's natural alliance probable and highly practical as well potentially lucrative.

    The skaters in the mean time are getting a crappy deal where they get practically treated like employees serving both parties without the usual employee benefits (great pay, performance rewards, holiday pay, compensation, national insurance, tax contribution, unfair dismissals etc.). It is the equivalent of having Movie studio that has a division that represent their stars, but the stars cannot form a union/federation to bargain on their behalf, when the movie studio also teamed up with the union wanting to control the box office and who they want to appear on their big screen.

    Consider the amount of rich federations involved, and the big business involved, it is an utter travesty the world championship prize only stand at $45k compared with any other sport (I read even the average curling competition regularly get over that easily... yes CURLING!!!! May be Patrick Chan should switch, he says he loves golf!) While it makes sense federation don't want to spend money that will ends up in some rival skater's pocket when it can be used more wisely to prop up their own overall national interests, it is still a rather selfish outcome for all skaters, since if their own skater wins, they may lose some control too (unless they also get a cut?). Sport agency don't really care about the prize money since it is established already little money can be made anyway, 45k ? 145k? hardly make any difference. ISU don't care as long as it can still keep collect federation money and have control and influence and gawd knows what (abuse of bad judging). So clearly, skaters lose since they have to be part of the system to get their trophy and can never get unionised. Heck... even Alissa's own federation doesn't seem to care about her interest to participate for 4CCs which she is the sole qualifier based on their own rules, shows what a bad deal skaters has continued having to put up with, with decisions that are often out of their own hands, and they need to worry more beyond spins and their flutz.

    Look, I don't claim to know everything but I am interested in the answers, and do see credibility in trying to find the answers. It is impossible to get any truth unless we poke and prod into someone answering them or contribute collectively to get them. Surely it is human desire to see their sport as fair, and that no one is getting a bad deal or treated poorly.

    One last thing.... Usually whenever in the industry, we inadvertently caused someone to lose their job, we will take the extra time and effort to help that person getting an even better job. I hope IMG or whoever has profited from brokering this deal, would able to support Abe and supply her with plenty of well funded students. She has already proven done a great deal of good for Hanyu with fantastic results. Japan is really lucky to have her.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  15. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IMG is not astroturfing this discussion.

    For example? What rule changes have happened because of IMG pressure on the ISU?

    In which sport?


    Who are they?


    1) IMG is running the ISU competitions?
    2) You seem to be suggesting that your model for how all this works makes no economic sense and the agencies would be losing money hand over fist. Then why do you assume this is the way it is?


    Which federation is directly funding an outside talent agency? Please give names and details. :)

    ...IMG is like an arms dealer. In a way.

    I guess this explains all the "puberty monster" comments. It was born from the radiation fall out from loose nukes.

    Unfair dismissals? With :huh: to the rest of it, too, but what do you mean by unfair dismissals?


    So... skating is Hollywood before the studio system died?

    And as we say on Wikipedia, we'd like some citations, too, especially since you claim to know a lot about the industry.


    There's a difference between the organized sport governing bodies and IMG.
     
  16. sus2850

    sus2850 Active Member

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    Is it not the job of agencies to work with sponsors? Getting them to invest in skaters and skating events? So for example the IMG seats at euros this year were given out partly to people connected to the Russian vodka company co-funding the event (at least that is what I thought I witnessed). I do not see any conspiracy there.
     
  17. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    It&#8217;s great for Orser to have Hanyu. He&#8217;s finally got a big talent from the big market and the deep pocket. My guess is, this time around Orser&#8217;s agent would have worked out a contract with, in addition to a base fee for coaching work, some profit sharing clause wrt the future income streams from some, if not all, categorized activities/projects where Hanyu would be a paid party. If he has success with Hanyu, Orser himself could get commercial opportunities too, like, he might be getting some endorsement offers or be directing SOIs in Japan. Hanyu is obviously a huge talent and he has the potential to challenge Chan at Sochi. Technically he&#8217;s already accomplished, the odds for success are great, and he&#8217;s likely to become a star in Japan where a teen prodigy is particularly valued and he&#8217;ll be still a teen at Sochi. For Orser it&#8217;s like he went long on a futures contract in a big uptrend. Good for him.

    Hanyu&#8217;s interview didn&#8217;t say much about the change, and what he said was predictable. This coaching change is likely a product of talent marketing, but I think it was the Japanese federation that had made the definitive call, possibly long before they went public with it. I can&#8217;t imagine Hanyu having initiated it by asking JSF &#8220;I want to try out this Orser and the Toronto club so please arrange for this change and PR announcement,&#8221; when just weeks ago he was saying he would stay with coach Abe&#8217;s team.

    It&#8217;s likely JSF and IMG had it in the making for some time since Mao&#8217;s agent (also IMG) approached Orser in early 2010 with an interest in him and the whole team of professionals associated with the club which would include the costume designer who later would be making dresses for Mao, as hinted by the comments made by Orser at the time of the split with Kim. That was followed by, in the summer of 2010 and weeks before the Orser-Kim split, JSF sending a group of Japanese junior skaters accompanied by the federation officials to the Cricket Club. That, together with Orser&#8217;s disclosure to Kim of the offer from Mao&#8217;s agent, caused tension between Orser and Kim that all the regulars of the club must have felt, as indicated by Rippon when he said, &#8220;We've known about the situation longer than the general public." Then came the Orser-IMG&#8217;s media blitz against Kim, on the eve of ticket sales launch for Kim&#8217;s ATS Los Angeles shows. With that I felt Orser made it clear then and there his interests and future plans were in line with those of JSF and IMG. So this coaching change wasn&#8217;t a surprise. It also could&#8217;ve been meant in part as a reciprocal treatment on JSF&#8217;s part.

    In the interview Hanyu said the club&#8217;s collective coaching environment was the reason he decided to switch to Orser. By that I feel Orser is given some breathing room as he would not be singled out as being solely responsible for Hanyu&#8217;s success. It would be interesting though how Orser would manage achieving positive synergy among the club&#8217;s top skaters, especially when he has another legitimate contender in Fernandez who&#8217;ll be in peaking age at Sochi. But after all it&#8217;s Hanyu who represents bigger market, stronger federation and promising pipeline of skating talents. I think Hanyu would be doing fine. He&#8217;s already technically proficient, and the club has good facilities and resources in a private setting, which I guess would be better than his training base in Tohoku. He would have little problem with food, as getting Japanese and other oriental groceries won&#8217;t be a problem in Toronto. And, though I don&#8217;t consider his a serious case, I&#8217;ve seen some cases of people finding it easier to contain asthma symptoms when they moved from Asia to NA.
     
  18. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Of course not. But if my enjoyment in something has been ruined
    I'd cease my involvement in in, given the choice, and seek other pleasurable pursuits.
     
  19. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to ignore most of your tinfoil hat :puppet: konspiracy theory silliness, but you are really stretching the truth by quoting Rippon's mention of "the situation" like he is supporting the outlandish scenario you are proposing. The "situation" that Rippon was describing involved the tension between Orser, Yu-Na, and Yu-na's mother - who, despite being her daughter's manager, business agent, chaperone, etc., is mysteriously absent from your reasoning for all of this :puppet: action.

    And if you think that who makes someone's costumes is indicative of some :sekret: :puppet: konspiracy, then you are really desperate.
     
  20. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward.

    The only reason the Orser/Kim split got so much publicity is because they made their relationship very public in the first place.
     
  21. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    LOL.... Oh really?!! I bet you'd like that.

    Like no one has ever complained about ANYTHING before on FSU before, let alone the skaters themselves. Like there's nothing EVER wrong with this sport, and they should all leave if they felt passionate enough to complain, then this forum would have nobody left, except maybe you?

    You must be taking some magic Japanfan 100% happiness pills!! I'd ask some, except I am worried about the side effects of ever only able to see the world in black and white when it is clearly full of beautiful colours and shades readily to be appreciate by anyone with an eye for it, in both the beauty and the ugly.
     
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Can you give examples?

    I'm not seeing a pattern here: most of the post-war singles went pro and toured immediately after winning the OGM, and when they returned, they returned to their coaches -- Petrenko, Boitano -- and the ones that stayed in -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Lysacek, Urmanov, Witt, Hughes remain(ed) with their coaches. Touring pros don't train full time in one place, and most coaches focus on their competitive skaters.

    For pairs and dance, it's a bit different, because until the early '90's, the Soviet Pairs and Dance teams were dominant, and the option of switching coaches and who paid what to whom was dictated by government agencies and policies.

    Moskvina had a deal with Berezhnaia and Sikharulidze to train them for a percentage of earnings, since there was still little support towards the end of the their competitive careers. I'm not sure if there was a professional rift between Totmianina and Vasiliev over money; they did end their personal relationship. I've never been able to follow the splits and movements of Soviet/Russian ice dance teams in the 80's and 90's, and have no idea if there was any dispute over money between Zazoui and Anissina/Peizerat.

    Christopher Dean was probably the only OGM who could argue validly that he was as responsible for T/D's success as their coach.
     
  23. SueSue

    SueSue Active Member

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    Lol!! Where does all this Illuminati crap come from anyway? I've heard teens spouting off about it and now its come to FSU. Geez.... :rolleyes:
     
  24. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Hamil/Fassi went to court over whether he was entitled to a percentage of her earnings

    Hamilton/Laws - Hamilton worked on 3lutzes and 3axels after the Olys, but not with Laws

    Baiul/Smievskaya - Oksana accused her of keeping too much of her money. They were supposedly like mother/daughter when she was competing.

    Lipinski/Callaghan - the Lipinskis gave some unflattering interviews re: Callaghan and switched to Maurizi after the Olys. They claimed among other things that Callaghan wasn't supportive of Tara outside of her lessons.

    Hughes/Wagner - Hughes quit skating for a year or 2 shortly after the Olys and then came back to another coach, she never mentioned Wagner again in spite of all the loving fluff pieces. Rumor had it that she quit to get out of her contract with Wagner - she wasn't expecting to win Olympic gold or make a lot of money when she signed.

    I'm sure there are other reasons for the splits, but money is a big consideration. Athletes have relatively short careers and the opportunities to earn significant money are rare for both coaches and skaters.
     
  25. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    http://vigilantcitizen.com/

    Tin foil hats ftw! :cheer:
     
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I missed the Hamill/Fassi lawsuit.

    Out of 61 post-war OGMs, you give 5 examples, of which only three -- Kim/Orser, Hamill/Fassi, and Baiul/Smievskaya -- were or appear to be about money or credit. The other three are conjecture at best and poor logic at the worst. From your own wording, it sounded like the Lipinskis wanted a coach to give their daughter more attention outside of the rink, which Callaghan wasn't interested in doing. The Hughes famously gave up opportunities for Hughes to make a lot more than she did from endorsements, so money wasn't their object.

    There have been many splits over the amount of attention parents and skaters feel their coaches give them and whether the coaches are willing to put up with the demands parents make. Coaches have been known to fire skaters when the demands get too great or annoying.

    You haven't made a case that "Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward."
     
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  27. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    This thread is much more informative than I thought.
     
  28. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

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  29. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Mrs. Lipinski stated that SHE took care of Tara's needs outside of lesson time, and that Maurizi made lessons "fun" for Tara not Callaghan. She also stated that it was demoralizing for Tara when she saw the relationship other skaters had with their coach. If that isn't taking credit away from the coach, I don't
    know what is. Callaghan for his part said he gave her the same attention as his other students.

    Anyway, this is off topic. I'm not going blow by blow through every post- war skater/coach relationship. There wasn't always a lot of money or glory in skating, and I doubt the Soviet skaters had any choice in coaching relationships.

    My observation has been that with elite skaters and coaches there is a lot of ego involved on both sides and the OGM is the ultimate prize. Each side will put up with a lot to reach that goal, but once they do, the dissatisfactions
    often come out. Skaters often compare leaving an elite coach to getting a divorce.

    Whether you agree or not, that is my opinion.
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    But I wasn't disagreeing with this. I was asking you to substantiate your blanket statement about money., which you can't.