Yuzuru Hanyu to be coached by Brian Orser

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS Member

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    I just love Gracie's jumps and think she is very special. But I don't know what her jump height or hang time would be. The web site on this Sami says she exceeds at times .72 Not sure what that means and if your statement about Sotnikova or Gracie is true or not. Does anyone know what their jump height is? Anyone can shed more light on what .72 means that might help. In the end, I am not sure height maters as much as performing jumps in a competition.

    But back OT, I am sure that having Hanyu under the same roof will inspire this Sami to go for quads even more.
     
  2. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    The collection of elite international skaters that Yuzuru will be able to train alongside is sure to provide him with inspiration. Am very keen to see how his body continues to develop as well as he matures further.
     
  3. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    :sekret: sources tell me Christina Gao WILL be starting Harvard this coming fall (makes sense, she can only defer for a year, and then she'd be starting college, and Harvard no less, during an Olympic year, or have to reapply to colleges all over again if she were to wait another year to go), so I assume she will switch to Mitchell and Johansson and no longer be with Orser, or at least, not as a full-time student, so maybe this was known when Orser took on Hanyu. I would assume Orser probably has a limit on the number of elite skaters he is willing to train at once, and perhaps knowing Christina is leaving opened up a spot for another elite skater. Idk.
     
  4. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Harvard is too great to give up and good for Christina.

    On the other hand I am sure she can be 'gently persuaded' to make room for an OGM contender. She and Adam shares the same agent as Orser (and I speculate Hanyu too. This is yet to be confirmed.)

    Who do you think the sport agency want to bank on more to maximise their future earnings? They certainly would have thought about all this already and flanked everyone in line or out of the way to maximise the chance of the more lucrative deals will go through. Or it might not be lucrative now, but they will be by the time they are done with it. There are potential 10 years billing cycle they can get from Hanyu and Orser provided Hanyu medal or win the gold at the Olympics and a few WC.
     
  5. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Do agents have any say in where skaters train? I thought it was the sponsors who are paying the training bills who have the clout to make those conditions. As far as I know agents don't provide any training money. I doubt a competitive skater would cross their sponsor or federation to please their agent. We already saw where that got Evan Lysacek. I think it's a stretch to say that IMG has power over the skating federations, it appears to me to be the other way around.
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Not that I'm aware of.

    For the majority of skaters (eta: North American) it's the parents who are paying the bulk of the training bills.

    Last I heard, Christina Gao hadn't yet made a final decision on her college/skating plans (and when she does, I'm pretty sure it will be her and her family's decision, not IMG's).

    IMG recently signed Gracie Gold, BTW (mentioned in one of Phil Hersh's articles).

    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  7. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Remember, as Sylvia just mentioned, that most skaters do not have sponsors - they manage with a combination of federation money, family money and for a few lucky ones, some earned money from shows and appearances. In the very few cases where a skater has significant sponsorship money (not to be confused with successful skaters who have endorsement and advertising contracts), I would think that the sponsors must work along with the relevant federation.

    Sponsors don't call the shots, agents even less so about training conditions. For agents, training situations are largely irrelevant - the competitive results are what affects their business and of course they hope their skaters do well but they aren't involved in the training process.
     
  8. ros01

    ros01 New Member

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    You do read of agents who get EXTREMELY involved, or think they should be. I think it may just be due to the personalities and level of personal relationship.
     
  9. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Curious - who specifically can I read about or where?

    Other than parents who double as managers and can be overcontrolling (not all of them to be sure but a few notable individuals over the years), I'm having a hard time recalling a professional agent who got extremely involved in a skater's training. I'd like to know who you're referencing - thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  10. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Yes and no, these are rather simplistic way to look at the agency business and their client relationship, and not exactly how an agency works. Agency usually don't care where their candidate trains as long they can train well, that is UNLESS someone want to buy a good OGM team in which they could also represent.

    A well run agency doesn't work reactively according to current supply and demand based on existing representation or filling up empty 'spots'. They are likely to work proactively speculate and create opportunities where the big money can be made in the future by consistently seeking more/new candidates, new clients, put together projects/plans with the objective of turning them into profits. A medal is a main way to achieve this but it is not the only way. They are likely to invest a lot of time and effort to groom their best candidates (think of them as 'star maker') to maximise their earning potentials, so good training, excellent coaching, good publicity, medals are all by product of that. To deliver this, they will align themselves with anyone that can benefit from the same goal. They will also do this with rich clients who they know have certain allocated annual budgets which they can bid for.

    Every candidate are likely to have different funding conditions, so in a way it doesn't matter if they are the sponsors, the federation or the skaters themselves - so long as someone is willing to pay - looking to buy - where there are money to be made, the agency will find ways to deliver that. Including putting together new products and services where they can surcharge. Like headhunters, it doesn't depends on the sort of job that is advertised to the public. An agency need a good healthy supply of 'rising' talents they can scope, develop and sell (or sign one that is ready made), as long as there are those who are willing to pay. Doesn't matter if they 'might' be looking or 'actively' looking. If the sole objective is winning medals, then they'd have signed Patrick Chan long ago. The reason they hadn't is likely because there are more money to be made by exploiting his rivals who have deep pockets where they stand to earn a healthy profit. In any case, to sign Patrick now would be a conflict of interest to both parties, and if Patrick did sign, he is likely to be undermined internally in favour of those bring more money to the agency. Similarly Johnny Weir seems to be doing better commercially even it is Evan with the OGM and so forth (okay i don't know if this is true, but I bet they have different agents).

    Take football/soccer sport for example, it doesn't matter if a football player is already happy at his club, or that club has already got a great team that wins them trophies. There are always businesses to be made when they can sign the footballer and place them at another football club, or get the trophy winning Club interested in another world class player. Or even better yet, headhunt or shift that footballer to move to another club to free up this spot where they can place one of their newly signed footballer who could benefit to be on a trophy winning team etc. Generally the more turn over, the better it is for the agency business. Whatever reasons they decide move doesn't really matter - as long as they move, they are earning their %.

    Besides serving a key business functions in brokering, agencies also set out to manage the market condition where they can do good business. Although agency technically don't have any say in where the skater train, they do have good deal of influences over their client approach to decision making. To ensure the deal go through, they will certainly make good use of their role as the negotiator to manipulate views to a desirable outcome - driven by profit.

    It is advantageous for the agency to broke internally. If the coach/talent is represented by another agency, the agency may stand to lose out on a chunk of commission, management fee, and the perks that comes with it (but depends on how the deal was structured. Whether is someone looking to buy, or if it is someone looking to sell). The talent usually don't pay unless he is self funded, but he will need pay commission towards any endorsement/sponsor ship the agency can get for him.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  11. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    What, Orser belongs to IMG?
    A coach needs to have an agent?
    I am curious that other famous coaches(Morozov, Carroll, Yuka&Jason etc.) belong to agencies as well.
     
  12. ChibiChibi

    ChibiChibi Active Member

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    I know Yuka is with IMG.
     
  13. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Heading for Helsinki

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    I imagine Brian's affiliation with IMG dates back to his days as a show skater, not so long ago. He was doing some choreography for shows as well.
     
  14. lakewood

    lakewood Active Member

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    That contract ended when he quit show skating and he signed a new contract as a coach right after the Vancouver Olympics.
     
  15. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Haha, this smells really bad.
    Why in the world would a coach need an agent?

    Also, didn't IMG say that they have no associations with Orser's coaching business at the height of Kim/Orser split drama?
     
  16. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    I don't think the new contract has anything to do with his coaching business, either. That imples IMG would take away part of his teaching fee as theirs, which does not make sense.

    IMG is a big presence in the North American ice show business. Orser may want to do some choreography from time to time for those shows. IIRC, he worked for Celebration on Ice tour at the end of 2010.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Wasn't he featuring in quite a number of Korean ads after the Vancouver Games?
     
  18. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    IIRC, just one, not many ads. He was in the Samsung Airconditioner ad. That contract with Samsung ended after 2010 summer.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  19. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    While skaters like Orser, Sato, etc. have relationships with agents left from their performing days, I do not believe that they are repped by those agents for their coaching services. I will check on that with people who have relationships to skating agents so that we get some facts here. Quite a few coaches have multi-faceted careers so that an agent might rep their skating show contracts and appearance (like Brian's ads as stated above) contracts but I think not their coaching arrangements. I would tend to doubt that coaches like Nicks, Carroll, Morozov, Tom Z, Jim Peterson, Krall, Sato (senior), etc. have agents who rep them. I will check however - facts are good.
     
  20. YukiNieve

    YukiNieve Active Member

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    I recently heard Ms. Yuka Sato has an agent from IMG.
     
  21. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Yuka has long had an agent from IMG for her performing (shows and appearances) career - that is long-standing relationship. Whether they rep her services as a coach, I don't know but as I said a few posts ago, I will check on that.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  22. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    The financial side depends on the deal. Usually if it is head hunted, then the agency will bill a fixed amount or % commission lump sum to the buyer separately. Fee wise, the agency would able to negotiate a higher rate for coaching that covers their commissions and that rate should be higher than what Orser was getting. Although I am not sure if this applies to Orser's existing cricket club students, the Agency will likely to have separate arrangement with the cricket club, or maybe their arrangement only covers key high profile world class level students. From a management perspective, I suspect IMG operate more like an umbrella company where they control all the financing, so all funds goes to IMG and they will sort out everyone's taxs and management/expenses/surcharge deductible, then pay off their talents what remains with itemised billing.

    Basically the chances are, once a coach is signed with a big agency, his rate will shoot up and his chargeable services will be more organised with a logical breakdown of rates in black and white that makes him appear more expensive and frugal than ever before. The agency will also insist and pressure all Orser's students to sign onto a long term contract and it means good for Orser, bad for his paying customers. If the student is represented by the same agency, they probably won't see any of this and they may benefit from reduced rates or more favorable terms than going through an outside agency, since IMG controls both the demand and the supply.

    There are only 4 OGM teams every 4 years and only 2 in singles, it is either going to be Frank Carroll or Brian Orser. If someone want to buy an OGM team, this makes Brian Orser a valuable commodity which an agency can

    1. Poach for the client.

    2. Bank him for prospective buyers. (Mao, Miki, Kozuka, Kanako are all IMG clients, and I strongly suspect Hanyu would be, or if they are really sneaky, they'd sign him to one of the sister agencies to avoid controversy - Or not, since they are clearly quite AGGRESIVE and BOLD going about undermine their rivals.)

    3. Groom him for IMG's skaters. Javier is with IMG too although I am not sure if he is signed before or after Orser. Just like Yuka and Abbot and Rippons are all with IMG. Rippon was previously with Orser. It is more lucrative to broke coach / student deals internally, to assure there's a strong network relationship firmly in place which makes it difficult for the skaters or the coach to leave without jeopardising this relationship. It is preferable for the agency too because they stand to earn from two sides of revenue for more or less the same amount of work.

    4. Exploit Orser's existing network contacts and benefit from these network. Potential new candidates and show placements for their portfolio candidates.

    Brian as a Choreographer is unlikely. Firstly - David Wilson is known as the choreographer in the cricket club, and with him at least there are volume business. I have no idea how much choreography cost these days? $4000 - $8000 per piece? $600/$800 per day? 10-20% of that only amounts to only few hundred dollars of commission for one-off work. It wouldn't be too smart for multi million dollar company to goto through all that trouble flying to Toronoto, break up a high profiled relationship and then to use him as a choreographer (!?).

    Whether Brian is aware of how he has been handled, I don't know. Strictly speaking from a PURE business view, Orser's relationship with Kim is liability for the IMG from the start, especially if they can't also sign Kim. (And it is obvious they wouldn't able to sign Yuna given Mao and Miki are also managed by IMG which would result in huge conflict of interest. Something Yuna experienced when she started out with them, and ends up in legal situations when she changed to IB agency) For starters she is not a candidate, she is practically a rival agency. Orser and Kim never had a formal contract as on paper and their relationship was based entirely on trust. Kim was unwilling to be pressured into signing anything when she wasn't even sure of her future at the time. All their Korea ice show and ads deals they have done, ATS will likely to broke it themselves or have a direct relationship. IMG stand to lose out a big huge chunk of Orser's time when they can place him on something else to earn them good money.

    Bottom line: no contract, no money for IMG.... bye Yuna!!

    Why did IMG set up Orser to do mass PR campaigns over the course of a week on national and international press circuits, newspaper, televisions carrying out a media offensive making accusations about this high profile breakup? Which coach does that? What are the benefits? The agency is not stupid, they are too experienced in this industry to know better. It was to cut off ties with Kim once and for all, to undermine a rival agency (who was about to put out a rival ice show on home ground - ATS LA in the same week), and to advertise Brian's services to satisfy existing or potential customers.

    The role of skater and role of coach are totally different, for starters, their billable hours and management services are different therefore require different t&c with it. Coaching fee are recurring and they are not one - offs, so it does adds up when an OGM coach can have multiple high profile students, clients with deep pockets. Coaches generally have a longer career span than most athletes too.

    The so called 'long standing' contract are likely agency 'talk'. Whilst most don't lie *ahem* they just tell 'half truths'. ;) Ask them to produce a signed piece of paper in black and white, you'd find that contract is likely to have an expiry date (or if they are cheeky, they will put up a new date like 99 years), or it might be a rolling contract which it can end anytime with few weeks notice. If it is an old contract, it is likely to have an outdated terms and conditions with an outdated level of services anyway, otherwise it is unfair practice. No contract should last forever. If they tell you otherwise, challenge them and if you are unhappy, move.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  23. ponta1

    ponta1 Active Member

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    What exactly do you mean--who is aggressive and bold in undermining their rivals? Also, what does Yuna have to do with Mao and Miki and IMG?
     
  24. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Incase you hasn't noticed IMG represent majority of the top Japanese skater including Mao and Miki, Yuna's direct rivals. In the agency business, IMG's direct rivals are their client's rival's agency and it is in their business interest to undermine them competitively, publicly and subversively. This happens in any industry involving the agency business. We hate competitors, and we will head hunt their candidates. We just need a good reason to, i.e. some one has to pay or someone has to ask.

    IMG signed Brian Orser immediately after the Olympics while Yuna was in Korea. IMG is likely instigated the the big public break up for reasons explained already (i/e no money can be earned from Yuna's side and they need to free up Brian for their big plan to earn $$$ ). Now Brian is going to coach Hanyu, Japan's next big OGM hope. JSF has a history of buying OGM coaches (Morozov, Tat) and pay big money. There're only 2 coaches every 4 years in the singles category. A deal like this don't happen over night and likely to have been planned for some time since a number of things need to fall in place. It is bold and outrageous (though not surprising?) like a melodrama. JSF probably just haven't decide on the suitable candidate until recently. I really doubt Brian would have signed anything unless some big deal is promised to him. Otherwise what is the point to sign with an agency as a coach, he need the work?

    This is practically the equivalent of Irina's agency decide to split up Frank Carroll and Michelle Kwan by signing Frank after a WC loss while Michelle is on holiday, then cause them to have big public fall out which they happily publicise on national tv, then Plushy ends up getting coached by Carroll 2 years later (and likely a few other Russian skaters too.) Friggin crazy! I have seen some stunt over the years, this one brings the beef, kobe beef.

    If this is ever pulled on Frank, I bet he'd have at least the decency, the foresight and the experience to say 'Hell No!!' when it is clearly a direct's rival's agency that is going to hurt his student regardless of whatever the outcome.

    IMG tend to sign on direct coach - student relationships for more lucrative management and control. Here're a selection of their clients.
    http://www.imgworld.com/services/talent-representation/figure-skating.aspx

    Where there's a demand, money can be made. If the supply is not there, go find one and take it - aggressively and boldly and create some smoke and mirror in the process hoping no one will notice.

    Problem is the truth always come out in the end when actions speaks louder than words.
     
  25. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Brian has been, as far as I know, an IMG client for many many years taking him from his Olympic medal through a very active performing career. They've repped his whole show career and there has been lots of that. I am not clear that they have any financial interest in his coaching situations. As I said, I will ask so that we'll have some facts to discuss.
     
  26. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, ask. I thought that Brian had been an IMG client for a long time before Yuna came along. If that's true than all that speculation about the breakup is questionable.
     
  27. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Speculations are supposed to be questionable. Otherwise, speculations wouldn't be speculations. ;)

    Anyhow, let Orser do his stuff with his skaters and chips fall where it may.
    So far, none of his skaters have been all that impressive post Kim, but in the end, results at the Sochi Olympics will tell the real truth.

    If he is a capable coach, there is no reason why he can't have skaters come to him.
    He should earn money using his skills regardless who is paying him, IMG, JSF, or whoever.

    Likewise, Kim should move on with her career of earning ton of money despite performing shitty exhibitions numbers. Afterall, it was herside's choice to keep all the money rather than seeking diplomatic solutions with Orser, IMG, JSF or whoever that was involved in the whole ordeeal.
     
  28. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    True, that.
     
  29. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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  30. lakewood

    lakewood Active Member

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    I know Brian had long been an IMG client, which probably ended when he quit skating. IIRC, there was an article around May, 2010 that Orser signed a contract with IMG along with his students Rippon and Gao.