Yuzuru Hanyu to be coached by Brian Orser

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Given what I know about how sport agency works, what happened 2 years ago during the Orser/Kim break up and IMG's role made alot of sense now, since I used to be a head hunter myself that strategize and plan headhunting ahead of time in another industry. Each deals can take between 3-18 months to materialize subject to the contract in place already, the big deals can takes up to 2 years. I am not saying this is what happened, but it very well might according to my experience.

    Who ever broke this deal, I hope you enjoy your 20%-30%. In big moves like this where there hadn't been an expectations, it is hardly ever about the athletes and their true benefits. The only ones profit from brokering these deals are the sporting agencies and indirectly their placements. If it doesn't work out, great... just move! Another 20% to who ever suddenly is more suitable, and a spot suddenly becomes available where you can fill another one of your candidate in.

    Where there are no supplies, create one. Where there are no demand, create one!

    Be friends with your clients and candidates and make it like you are doing them a favour helping them to grow and make them realise suddenly they need this and also that now they are so and so. End result really doesn't matter. The more moves, the merrier, it is about generating sales leads, and make the sale. Each time a skater changes coach, a spot became available, someone is likely to earn 20% or up to approx. 30% if it is a a proactive hire. The more turnovers the better you can earn, thus successful agencies's candidates are unlikely to stay in the same place for more than 2 years at a time.

    Knows your enemies, knows your benefactors. Your enemies you head hunt from and fill the void with your own candidate. If you can't head hunt, then become friend with them to see if there are potential vacant spots which you can supply. Alot of these are speculative positions and hire will eventually lead to a firm deal and can take time to develop.

    I wonder how much this decision is really up to Hanyu, the poor lad probably had no idea what is going on except do 'what is best' suggested to him and ends up with a weird situation like this. If it doesn't work out Hanyu, don't be afraid to leave early. If you don't stay for more than 3 months the agency are unlikely to get their full fee. Tough luck!! Just don't be a pawn in someone else's game and do what is best for your own self interests and please take care of yourself.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  2. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Kim (that's where the big bucks were in the duo as far as earning ability) was repped by her mother both before and after the change in coaching. I'm curious not challenging - what is your fact set here? Also, agents don't get 20-30% of anything (I was in a business serving talent agents and managers for many years) - 10% usually of any job they rep you for (there are some arrangements where an agent may provide additional management for certain clients and it's 15%). It's not a head-hunter arrangement where (I assume from what you're saying) one gets a fixed percentage of first year's salary - that's not the entertainment agency biz, it doesn't work that way. So "churning" (which is what you're describing) clients is not in an agent's interest. Again, I'm interested in your facts.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I am really shocked.

    Hanyu and Abe seemed to have a very close and special bond.

    She's done extremely well with him both technically and in terms of program construction this season.

    That is rather judgemental.

    Most skaters will never have consistent quads.

    You can't always blame the coach.

    Gao's PCS skills in general are just :scream:.

    Fernandez was very inconsistent this season. A quad alone is not enough if you mess other stuff up.
  4. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Not really... those you are unable to directly profit from, you can exploit their success by head hunting their team for your potential client's interest down the road, even if they are not looking right now. Part of the trick is about relationship building and seeing the needs and supplies ahead of the time, and of course managing expectations with many friendly coffee meetings which are more than just relationship building.

    It is no accident once a company has earned big success getting awards and accolades, they are subject to find their organisation being strategically dismantled by head hunters either by head hunt the entire team, or take them out piece by piece. Skating might be more of a niche market that doesn't have the scale of multinationals, but it is so easy to exploit since there're only so many candidates, so many potential spots and revenue streams, these things need to be planned ahead of time especially everything is per annual season.

    I charge 20% for my level of hire (Senior) but i have known MD CEO level hires were at 30%. 10% is standard for general recruitment. It is a matter of volume business, the more volume, the more candidates the lower fee. But imo at Hanyu's Olympic level expectations from a rich federation in this niche industry where there are limited supply and demand of world class coaches, it is likely to be a proactively hire, the fee is likely to be 20-30%. It is just an speculation. These things are impossible to prove, unless someone would care to volunteer on what is the going rate these days.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  5. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    It must be me - this argument doesn't appear to work for the sport or the business model. Definitely each to his own point of view though.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  6. shah

    shah Well-Known Member

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    I prefer WeirImitation to MiniOrserClone :p.

    a really shocking and unexpected coach switch which leaves me somewhat speechless. and unhappy :/...
  7. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad Well-Known Member

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    Kozuka always looks so hesitant going into his Quads, I am amazed that he manages to land some at all.

    And I don't think Fernandez had a bad season. I think he kind of spooked himself. He gets a new coach and - voilĂ  - after a few months with the coach he suddenly skates fantastic programs and is considered the favourite going into Euros.

    I like Orser for Hanyu.
  8. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I think headhunting is the more valid model here because unlike talent agencies, these are not open casting hires. What is likely to happen is the headhunter would artificially create a need, and fill it with their sources/contacts, or vice versa. We speculate unavailable people and non existing positions out all the time, just to 'sound' people out, get a feel for the potentials.

    It might not work 1st time, but by 3rd or 4th meeting, an opportunity is likely to come up (not publicly disclosed therefore a level of exclusivity). In sport I wonder how much of it is really down to the management's decision, the athlete's need, or it is really the agent who create the demand.

    In anycase, I thought I'd just weigh in a possible scenario in case anyone is interested, otherwise just call me another crazy fan who's trying to make sense of all this.
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: In Toller Cranston's book, "Zero Tollerance," Toller discusses how he turned down Fassi's overtures to become his coach. Fassi then successfully recruited John Curry ... the rest is history. Fascinatingly, Curry was obviously inspired by Cranston's unique style of skating. In 1976, Curry who hadn't previously had a great deal of success, won the Olympic and World gold medals.

    Interesting rationale ... Definitely Fassi was a political mover and shaker.

    :confused: I think Hanyu has his own smooth style somewhat similar to Johnny's graceful way of flowing over the ice -- but I don't see Hanyu's style of movement drastically changing. Hopefully, Hanyu will be able to develop more endurance and maturity, and also learn how to get up quickly and continue skating after a fall, w/o pausing so long and hanging his head.

    IMO, Hanyu is not a Johnny clone. Neither does Hanyu "imitate" Johnny. OTOH, Hanyu has been wearing costumes designed by Johnny, and Hanyu admittedly admires Johnny's skating. Do you think that will change?
    ___________________________________

    I am surprised that Hanyu will be moving to Canada to work with Orser, however as others have mentioned, it is not unusual for Japanese skaters to move abroad for training. Perhaps this move will work in the favor of all concerned, including Javier. The new season already seems set for a number of fireworks in all disciplines. :watch:
  10. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    huh? Kanako? Did i miss something?
  11. skfan

    skfan New Member

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    somewhere, maybe here or GS or mao forum, i read that JSF has been wanting to send kanako and yuzuru to a foreign coach, that JSF may have plans to have orser take the role morozov once held.

    BUT more importantly, whose posture has brian orser fixed? me wants to know! :lol:
  12. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what I've been wondering while reading this thread. :shuffle:

    Very true, but he certainly improved when he left Morozov and went to Orser.

    My more general response: This is a surprising decision, but I think we'll just have to wait and see how it works out. Hanyu has a lot of raw talent and promise. But the kid is still quite young and often still looks it IMO. Maybe the coach who helps you break onto the scene isn't always the best coach to help you mature.
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: at the photos and headline on IceNetwork with article link on this news!

    I also am :rofl: at the image of Orser skating (acting out the program) on the sidelines while watching Hanyu :lol:. Hanyu's former coach always seemed ready to throw up before Hanyu skated and afterward too whenever Hanyu made mistakes.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  14. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    He will be attending school in Japan and traveling to train with Orser "frequently"??

    And Mariah thought she had a bad commute!

    This schedule seems a recipe for disaster-
  15. kimkom

    kimkom Two Pot Screamer

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    Most important of all, will Brian let him bring his bear to the boards? :drama:
    DaveRocks and (deleted member) like this.
  16. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    I'm talking about quad jumps. Fernandez's only "mistake" was the 4S in worlds FS (-1.6GOE). That's one out of 16 attempts. Really amazing! He can "learn" 3A techniques from Hanyu. Hanyu never missed the 3A in this season (21 attempts) and only once in the last season (Japanese nationals FS). In fact, Hanyu's 3A earns more points than Chan's 4T on average.

    Many men lose consistency in the 3A when they practice quads, yet Hanyu seems to be the clear exception. That's something reminds me of Plushenko. Gachinski's 3A is very stable, but his 4T is nowhere close to it. Orser can be proud of his new student. Hanyu has already declared to include the 4S. Fernandez can be a lot of help.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  17. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    FYR, I made comparisons of Hanyu and Chan's 4T/3A at 2011-2012 international competitions (in cases of combinations, values of 2T or 3T were extracted, -1 deductions applied when fell on 3A or 4T)

    Hanyu
    4T 10 attempts 4 +GOE average 9.47 points
    3A 15 attempts 14 +GOE (fell on 3A-3T at CoC) average 10.01 points

    Chan
    4T 20 attempts 9 +GOE average 9.33 points
    3A 13 attempts 7 +GOE average 7.51 points

    and Fernandez's 4T/4S
    15 attempts 11 +GOE average 11.42 points

    If Hanyu could obtain Fernandez's quad consistency, he could be quite unbeatable. Chan won't be able to get away with 3-4 falls and still win anymore (save Skate Canada).
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  18. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    The main improvement was that he finally had good programs, and that's because he went from Morozov to Wilson/Buttle. Fernandez already had the jumps and was quite a good skater; he just needed his PCS to catch up. I don't think he was inconsistent, more like he had an Oda-type season with a really strong GP that got everyone's expectations up, then basically nothing. I can't even call it peaking at the wrong time, because Fernandez needed that strong GP to even be considered a contender. Maybe next year they'll manage it better.

    Orser certainly did a very good job with Yu-Na Kim, but again some of the credit should go to David Wilson. And Kim did have some weaknesses that Orser wasn't able to fix. He strikes me as being really good at instilling confidence and helping skaters with the mental side of their preparation, which is obviously very important - but he's not a magician.

    As for Hanyu, I just don't see what Orser can give him that he doesn't already have. Unless he can figure out a way to work around Yuzuru's asthma and improve his stamina.
  19. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

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    Some Yuna fans were Not surprised by this news.
    Two years ago, they did even predict exactly that Orser is going to coach Hanyu(or Murakami, Shoji) if he doesn't get Mao. lol. ;)
    Orser's unfinished job with JSF in 2010 was done now finally. End of story.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  20. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    How are people still making this kind of comments after WTT?
  21. Hedwig

    Hedwig Rarely here anymore but I try to be better!

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    I don't understand the coaching situation - is his old coach still his coach when he is at school in Japan? Or does he train on his own then?
    Is Orser his primary coach or an additional coach when he is in Canada?

    this commute. :yikes:
  22. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Just one thing to say. TOO MANY TOP-RANKING SKATERS IN ORSER'S CAMP.
  23. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    Reportedly Hanyu ended the coaching relationship with Nanami Abe peacefully. He basically lives in Sendai and travels to Toronto occasionally.
  24. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    WTT is a so-called cheesefest sponsored by Japan money. We can't make any serious conclusion out of this. Takahashi also has received incredible scores at NHK trophy (90+ for the quad-less SP). In a sense, it's similar to Skate Canada.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  25. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    ^ This. If Hanyu had to be sent anywhere, I'd have rather seen him go to someone like Frank Carroll or John Nicks.
  26. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, just maybe some skaters are hopeless cases, who ever the coach might be, LOL.
  27. Hedwig

    Hedwig Rarely here anymore but I try to be better!

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    Thanks.

    So that means that he trains on his own while in Japan? (sorry to be dense if that has been said already :eek: ) This really worries me.
  28. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Orser may be spreading himself too thin to be of maximum benefit to any of them.
  29. aemeraldrainc

    aemeraldrainc Active Member

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    How many top-ranked skaters does Orser actually have?
    I know Javi, Elene G., Cynthia Phaneuf, and now Yuzuru. Did I miss anyone? Honest question.
    How many skaters does Morozov have? :lol:
    Also, remember that it's a team effort in Orser's camp. It's not just him taking care of his "flock." There's Tracy Wilson, David Wilson, other technical coaches,etc.
    I'll give him a chance before I declare he's taking too much on.
  30. bek

    bek Guest

    How long does Hanyu have left of high school. It may be that he will travel their frequently for a little while and then move down their when high school is over. Plus isn't their ice issues in Japan. This coaching change may mean that important times, he'll get more ice team. Which isn't a little thing. His old coach might not be able to uproot her life for one student, but it might be in his best interest to have another place to train.

    Not to mention I think everyone can benefit at times from new inputs. His former coach did an AMAZING job but is she really the one to fix the posture, she's had a LONG time to work on it with him.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2012
  31. luCN

    luCN New Member

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    you said what I want to say.
    Orser didn't have too many students now,especially top ones.it's not a big problem.
    then Yuzuru may skate David Wilson's program?can't wait :cool:
  32. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    In reading the announcement about Phaneuf going to Orser the thing that struck me was that Brian mentioned not changing too much at all about her skating just working on confidence. When you think about Yu Na's bent leg on her layback and that they never fixed it, it seems like a glaring error to us but clearly to Brian it's not. I am sure that if it were costing her they would change it.

    My point is that there are some things that we as internet coaches would repair that clearly do not effect the skater overall so the coach wont fix. It must make perfect sense to them. I
    I think that most of us want to see happen other skaters when they switch; the drastic metamorphasis that is that happened to Michelle when she went to Lori or Yagudin/Kulik when they went to Tarasova or even Angela Nikodinov when she went to Elena. It doesnt always work that way...
  33. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    He may NOT though if he does not have a lot of beginner skaters. Tarasova used to coach multiple singles skaters and dance teams at the same time. Igor and Marina do it... Lets not presume to know it all...
  34. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Who will Hanyu train with in Japan then if not Abe?
  35. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Since I don't read Japanese, I couldn't tell what the article actually said. Does it specifically say that he is leaving Abe? If not, he may be adding Orser and still working with Abe when in Japan.
  36. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Cynthia's jumping technique and basic skating is already excellent. (except for the flip). Her problem is in her head and there's no guarantee that he or anyone can fix that. Head cases are really hard to turn around, especially late in their careers.

    Someone complained earlier about Orser's inability to fix Rippon's 3A. Keep in mind we only know parts of the story so be careful about the conclusions you draw. Rumor had it that Rippon didn't follow Orser's plan to improve his jumps which included more off ice work. It takes two -- both teacher and student -- to create success.

    In general though I love all the moves. To me this is a big picture signal that skaters are really game to develop and grow. As a result they take all they can from a coach and then when they sense a plateau of any kind they search for additional instruction from others. Risky to do, but can lead to a faster trajectory of growth for the skaters. Love it!
  37. bek

    bek Guest

    I know... Orser hasn't shown YET that he can be a Mishin/Carroll and develop a skater from the ground up, but it takes years to develop a skater like that.. And so give him time. But he has shown that he can take a skater with the technical skills, improve their skating in all aspects, and also manage their injuries/make sure they peak at the right time. Which is good for Hanyu.

    There were a lot of coaches not just Orser that couldn't help Rippon with that triple axel, and I actually think Gao improved a lot under Orser from what I can see. There are tons of reports that Fernandez does not have the greatest work ethic, which ISN'T Orser's fault.

    With Hanyu Orser may have his male version of Kim talent wise, heck Hanyu may even be more talented, and so far it seems to me given how much he's improved that the work ethic is there.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2012
  38. nubka

    nubka Well-Known Member

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    Yes, mammy! :rollin:
  39. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Worried too. Why does it sound like Mao's arrangement with Tat?
  40. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Oh, how I wish I could say I was that young or that I didn't take from the late Carlo Fassi, so yeah.......:shuffle: