Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Jan 6, 2013.

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  1. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2012/07/136_114259.html

    The answer's in the article.

    Who dare to deny it!
     
  2. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I can see the hunting season is on. Everyone sharpens their knives and polishes their poison arrows. This is all very entertaining but alas a bit mean spirited with lots of fake smilies.

    Aussie Willy, are you really a judge? If so, is it really in your 'professional' opinion that Yuna perform juniorish and have poor musicality? If so, I am honestly surprised.
    if Yuna skate juniorish, then you must be my favourite infant level judge ever! ;)


    There's always Sochi? :) Though I am on the fence on this one, since I am a natural progressive.

    I know you appreciate 'homage' alot but imagine if someone keep goes to every Michelle's thread after her Lyra Angelica and goes, well I don't think it is good as Lyra, here's why blah blah blah. When in fact art should never be stationary, so I appreciate they keep trying something new every season avoid being be formulaic and safe.

    I like this program for its striving for good balance of everything instead of following the current risk/reward COP trends formula. For example 4 of her jump passes are well spaced out towards the middle 3rd of the rink, 1 jump on one end of the rink, 2 jumps on the other. This showcased how little time she actually need set up her jumps as oppose to those who takes ages to set up their jumps and only able to do them at either end of the rink. This should be especially commended as her jumps are usually proceed by difficult entries/transitions. Even though this increased the difficulty and risk to able to do this and is virtually worthless under COP. I consider the approach Yuna's little Les Mis revolution against the COP not picking the obvious COP smart way to skate for points. Her 3lz3t difficult combo might seem worth less than during the Olympics, (that many prefer 2A3T, or 3T3T now days consider the change in values on all the jumps except 3lz remain unchanged), she still kept it to her tip top Olympic standards despite depreciated GOEs overall. I just love how she strives for maximum content and difficulty every time she steps on the ice and never dumb down her content for an easy win, doesn't matter if it is the beginning of the season or the prestige of the ice.

    One of my biggest gripes about Morozov's cookie cutter programs is how he apparently established the current COP friendly/optimised/smart formula that produces the typical cookie cutter packaging I complain alot on this board circa 2011. Therefore I shouldn't be surprised how everything turned out in 2012 is exactly what I predicted. That 'package' consist of 'complementary music' (to hide weakness of skater, poor musicality? Give her an obvious steady beat.) and 'thematic' package (inoffensive, vanilla conventional, costumes, choreography structured for consistency and for 10% bonus), little strive for authenticity and originality (to the music's intention) and blatantly disregard the antiquity of art. Where music were selected because of their tempo structure to makes it easy to skate as oppose to make reverence to the correct way to interpret the music according to their significance and meaning. For the ladies, the increasing trend of 1st half of the programs generally consist of minimum choreography to get the big money jumps out of the way - with as little transitions as possible to improve consistency for GOEs and PCS (that lasts the whole season). Usually to slow music edit that allows them to conserve their energy and lots of time killing doing some spins, poseography until the 10% half way point, before banging out all the jumps out of the way one after another (circa Ando 2011) for the 10% bonus, then settle one wow big step sequence to dazzle the judges hoping they ignore the void in the first half of the program. Add a spin or jump to finish off. Yuna could very well do exactly the same as everyone else doing and make her own life so much easier, but she didn't. She goes for the big epic route, where a mistake would be heavily noticeable given the amount of jam packed choreography with little pause in between. Again difficulties and challenging music structure and amount of choreography movements are not really accounted for under the current COP system based on such elementary methods of marking, so I commend her for it. She is doing so much more than what others doing when she totally doesn't have to, makes nice bonuses when I watch she perform her programs.

    .. oh and I can't believe it is YOU who bring up the sans OTB issue.. :swoon:! I tried to kill it before it happens but then it won't be quite FSU without it. Just like Esta is here in spirit in a fog of cigarette smokes, in her 'white skating boots' no doubt. I wonder if Michelle didn't wear san OTB, would you honestly feel the same way regarding the 'proper' attire you so desire of today's ladies? I also wonder if Michelle wasn't so dominating during her era with her superb signature 'heart on her sleeve' style of emotional projection, have created this common decorum among N.American audiences litmus test for assessing skating performances's 'emotional quotient'. Kweendom scale of value: No misty eyes = boring. Nearly teary eyed = not bad. 1 tear drop = good. 2 tear drops = very good. 3 tear drops = I need kleenex = That is pretty aaaaaamazing... BUT of course you are not Michelle, NO ONE is good as Michelle, somewhat hesitantly and begrudgingly... but yeah still very good!! :shuffle:

    Maybe it is the stoic Brits in me combined with my half Asian sensibilities that consider essences are just as important as form when appraise anything in art or music, but I actually find this sort of quieter performance very appealing and untypical among ladies programs. To not to go for obvious sentimentality but choose to reflected the fortitude and spirit of Les Mis the epic well. One of sincerity, courage, pensiveness, aspire for betterment/excellence can be just as powerfully potent as any chick flick/tearjerker version of which Les Mis can be cheapen into. I am glad the team avoided this pitfall.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  3. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Scene I

    A: “We have honored experts in the panel today.”
    B: “Let me introduce Ms. C, a qualified expert in the field. I respect her opinion. Let’s all listen up.”
    C: “Um.. first, I have degrees in such and such.. oh, did I mention my degree in music too? Blah.. blah.. to sum it up, I’m not impressed with it because, um.. it’s not to my taste and I don’t like it.”

    Repeating non-objective statements over and over, with in between throwing in self-claimed qualification of having a better opinion than others’, sounds like propagandizing to me. Yu-Na lacking musicality in those programs and “juniorish” in performance? Sorry, she lost all credibility there for me. I can see she could do even better, but can’t call that kind of statement a balanced opinion.

    Scene II

    A: “Junior of the Griffey annoys me with that wriggling the bat in the box.”
    B: “That Air-something guy from Jordan needs to learn Dougie. I want to see him play to the audience after a basket-counting fade-away, or a slam dunk, once in a while.”

    I’d say those could be all understandable nitpicking. But with one sweet yet powerful swing at a bat, or with a double-clutched, graceful flight to the basket, it’s loud and clear it’s not really relevant.

    Thanks for the video link! It’s more and more impressive with each new angle.

    ^ I share this.

    BTW, as much as I love Homage, I don’t really want her to bring it back. For a simple reason -- I want to see her new programs each year! It’s in the old page and I can cherish it fine with her performance at worlds.
     
  4. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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  5. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Yes I am but so what? Are you one? And what makes you qualified to suggest that she had wonderful musicality in that program? Please explain where the musicality was?

    However I think you need to re-read what I wrote. At no time did I suggested that she had poor musicality. I did suggest the music wasn't used as effectively as it could have been but that is not saying she has poor musicality and I have tried to explain what I look for in terms of a skater using the music. But I also suggested that as a new program it takes time for a skater to develop the program in terms of what a skater can bring out in the music. A new program can look juniorish because the skater has not had time to refine it and really find their way through it.

    However obviously there are people who know so much more about these things than I do. So I give up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  6. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    :rofl:

    I think I'll be joining you - do you have some popcorn left?
     
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Can I join you? You people are much nicer to be around.
     
  8. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Ah, the expert is now interested in politicking. :D
     
  9. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I understand where you are coming from, and the reason given above, but I have developed my thoughts towards performances arts over the years. (I did ballet, Asian folk dancing, salsa, plays 4 instruments as well as able to play from memory/improvise/compose though not professionally but have performed in public) What you have describe may be text book answers prescribed by the current rule/guide book and from years of marking skating competitions no doubt. But I have always felt at world's elite level, the judges have a moral responsibility to see something bigger than then merely an elementary level of understanding compares to say local skating competitions because the work is likely to be more complex and sophisticated, and their decision making can dictate the future direction of this sport.

    I am surprised by the fact you are a judge but don't believe in the intention by the composer, what the music was written about, why it is for matters ' at all' to any interpretations of the music shows an alarming lack of music appreciation and 'entitled' ignorance. So how can one expect a high degree of fair judging, if all the judge care about is only in form but not in essence or meaning? Never mind being culturally sensitive to the reason why they perform the way the skater do, or the music selection, edit and other creative decision making? So no wonder we have so many weird marking in the PCS interpretation marking, when it is based on such an elementary level understanding. What separate judges and general public are supposed to be an informed opinion, otherwise what is the point of having judges.

    If i was to give an honest appraisal on the quality of credible artistry coming out of the COP cookie factory, I'd say most programs consist of something like 5% nutrition 95% artificial colouring and flavourings. According to your reply, you seem to think as long as you satisfy the 'interpretation' parameters noted by the rule/guide book and it taste good and looks good, then who cares.

    ...Except I care. Deeply. I watch figure skating for the precious 5% quality which I hope the system would boost more with encouragement. I crave for quality in sports and arts and wish for it to get more recognised, quantified and rewarded. For those who dares to venture outside the line for doing something unique, special, superb, which are incredibly valuable in arts (e,g T/S's Carmen, Dai's FS performance at Japan Nationals this year) unfortunately never get what they deserve. It kind of upset me. I wish for a system and an empathy to encourage this happening more instead of disparagement going uh-oh didn't fit the rule book / guidelines sorry... the easier skating program wins, because they took advantage of the rules and levels or whatever. Rather than being happy and be satisfied with cookie cutter junk food, I am certainly interested to know what I am eating, if it is quality organic produce, and nutritious, how it grew, where it grew, how they are made and why. Some people may take comfort to seeing art as shapes, colours, techniques, labels and prices; I see art as extension of human potentials - the quality of creative decisions and execution of these ideas/designs which themselves are priceless.

    While I agree that nuances, phrasing, timings are all the bread and butter to deliver musical performance, but I also believe at the highest level of realisation they are not the only ways to convey music intentions in the grander scheme of things. Just like the quality of singing is NOT the most important thing in the film adaptation of Les Mis, as long as the skating performer fulfils the epic concepts they set out to do, the team has fulfilled the design brief. Bear in mind Les Mis music wasn't written for choreography movements and lacks the steady rhythms and tempo unlike her Giselle last year, or Swan lake, or Bolero which were all written for dance which naturally makes the 'reading' and 'performing' of musicality easier. I actually believe level of difficulty in Choreography + Music structure should be accounted properly in PCS in terms of factoring, the fact it isn't is a huge weakness in the current judging system, for it is suppose to encourage 'better' programs, but in reality, it hinders freedom to explore outside the framework, and handicap any skaters like T/S who dares to trying to do too much without rewarding them.

    How for example would you mark a program of let's say John Cage's 4'33? Which I'd love Daisuke or even Patrick do. Are the judges capable of seeing musicality in movement without the music and being entirely objective? Perhaps a more valid question might be whether someone else is capable of perform this choreography better than Yuna? Or how about if she is capable of perform other people's program better?

    ------------

    I do want to add, while I sympathize the judges are there to do an incredibly difficult job, to uphold a certain standards according to the rule/guidelines to reach some sort of peer agreement, but the trouble is when you have a rulebook that determine what is deemed good art, it automatically becomes an exercise of 'design by consensus', therefore kills any chances of 'real' art happening. So no wonder Morozovs rules supreme under such a system. I am amazed nothing has been done on the travesty that is the PCS marking as well, where each of the categories shares the same scale values. Imagine someone decide to mark all the triples the same value without consider the rarity, the effort, and the value of work that goes fully realize some of these categories, it seems absurd.

    I hope you don't find my criticism of the system and some of your views too personally. I am just venting out some frustrations as usual... forgive me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  10. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    Concerning the emotional distance quite a few posters said they felt about Yuna's new programs ------------and about Michelle Kwan being such a supreme reference in the matter of emotion in figure skating:
    I just want to add my two cents by saying how figure skating is a TV-mediated sport where our experience/ appreciation is more than incidentally depends on camerawork, I invite people here to imagine Kwan's skating without those closeups of her often emotional facial expressions which otherwise are invisible to viewers present at the rink. Just imagine her skating without those long victorious spiral sequences during which the TV screen is filled up with the closeup shots of Kwan's face with a radiant smile and wet eyes (the spiral sq, besides, is now gone), etc, etc. In conclusion, what I want to say is that much of the power that fans attribute to Kwan's skating owes to the particular, established way of filming figure skating (for instance, giving the impression of intimacy with a skater through closeups during the spiral sq and dramatic ending pose, etc.). In other words, please factor in the particular type of camerawork we got from KBS or SBS in your assessment of the emotional quotient of Yuna's skating, and of course, also the effect of the absence of a long spiral sequence, which is a bit like a 'kiss and cry zone' within a program.
     
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  11. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I've been following this thread with interest and that is not what Aussie Willy has been saying at all. While I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom, I think you don't want to accept that she's not (yet) 100% drooling over Yuna's program.
     
  12. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    That's a vast understatement. Read through the posts. She's out for anti-propaganda.
     
  13. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I'd also like to add that, as a professional performing classical musician myself for many years (as well as a former competitive skater), it is rare for any skater to give a compelling "character" interpretation in a program. Yes, I believe it is important for a skater to know any story/character/meaning behind a given piece of music. It is then up to the skater to decide what to do with that knowledge, which does not necessarily have to be an "acting out" of anything in order to be compelling.

    Ladies' exceptions, IMO: I do think Katarina Witt understood and was interpreting Carmen in '88. Janet Lynn's interpretation of Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun" is legendary. There are probably others, but I can't think of any at the moment.

    Michelle Kwan is considered a supreme artist by many fans, but she certainly never acted out the characters of Tosca or Salome. Yet they were sensational programs. Yes, she wore an appropriate enough (skating) costume for Salome, but I'll never be convinced that she was acting out the role of a sex-starved maniac obsessed with seducing John the Baptist. The music itself is powerful and she skated and reacted through the music, not the true personality and mental instability of the character. And it worked.
     
  14. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Are you saying this for real?:eek:
     
  15. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Chan was almost nobody prior to Vancouver. He became an important figure only in the last 2-3 years. On the other hand, YuNa was a storm right after her senior debut. She set up new standard for ladies field both technically and artistically. She popularized 3-3, 2-3 as a winning formula. She left most memorable programs in the last Olympic cycle. She brought the Korean skating to the world stage. Those are her contributions to skating.
     
  16. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Sorry if I offended you. But I meant it. I have some doubt if she's from down under and non-Asian as her nickname suggests. Hope I'm wrong, but the pattern and repetition seem so typical.
     
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  17. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Ice Alisa , Yu-na studied ballet with Evelyn Hart (how extensively I don't know), who was a prima ballerina with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet.
     
  18. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Sorry Aussie Willy, you've been found out. The anti-Yuna propaganda plot has been unveiled :drama:

    (yeah! finally I have a reason to use the drama icon - always wanted too :D)

    Beware fellow forumers, there are double agents among us :sekret:
     
  19. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Valid point.
     
  20. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    AFAIK, Evelyn Hart was one of many great staffs in Cricket club, among them is a modern hip-hop dance teacher who choreographed Yuna's Bulletproof ex. So my guess is that if Yuna learned some ballet, she did so while she was in Cricket Club.
     
  21. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Maybe that's me:puppet::sekret:
     
  22. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    That's true. She also learned ballet (entry-level, I guess) when she was a child.
     
  23. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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    All welcome. I am swimming in toffee popcorn here. It's necessary, as not only is Yu-Na back, but as Euros is coming up :D
     
  24. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    This is a good remark; I like when someone tries to rationalize what he has before the eyes, instead of throwing the first things that come to the mind (:)

    What actually bothers me is the existence of this “supreme emotional reference” that theguitarist mentions. For two reasons: one, which is obvious, is that having such reference as a meter for any other skating performance kills the individuality of all the skaters. and let’s not even mention when people try to sell this highly subjective meter as an universal belief. This way, judging figure skating becomes a farce.
    The second issue is the word “emotional”. I apologize if I go off topic again, but after all, I take pleasure in expressing my ideas… :D
    The term “emotion” is a very tricky monster, so to speak. Because it deals with something much much more complex than we can imagine. emotions have their roots in our personality, life experience, our subconscious and inconscious, etc. We think we can easily analyse them, and say “My emotions came from my appreciation of this performance and/or music”.

    Reality is different. A lot of things must be taken in account, and one of them is the context of the performance. In this case, its competitive environment: when we see an athlete nailing element after element, we are not just happy for the skater. We feel the excitement coming from our own competitive spirit (shall we call it, competitive greed?). Something that is naturally rooted in any human being - for biological reasons, I suppose. What we see in these skating competitions, what makes them so appealing, what make us fan of a skater, is the projection of our competitive nature. We unconsciously identify in this or that athlete and we want him to win because we want to feel the satisfaction of our “killer” instinct. Some people loved to go to the war, as absurd as it seems, for this very reason. In times of peace, the war instinct transfers in sports. So we study and discuss competitive strategies as we would do in a military attack. Let’s face it: we are much less pacifistic than we think (:)
    All this to say is that, taking the love for Michelle Kwan as an example: part of this love, of all this overwhelming emotions the fans feel in those moments, comes from the pleasure of seeing her win, beating everyone else once again, like a sparkling “war machine” we unconsciously love.

    Nationalism is an other unconscious element of it. Take the Olympics. Suddendly, the nationalities of the skaters count much more than before. They represent a country. It’s also a competition, or better saying a fight between nations. But a fight between nations is also called war. My theory is that the Olympics are considered so highly, as a stand-out competition, because they are a “mini-war”. And emotions run higher than before for the adrenaline of the war, of our killing instincts that burst out. All the media furore around the Games, that some people (rightly) can’t stand, is a minor reason of the excitement and the reverence that the word “Olympics” exude. Something much deeper, hard to admit, is at stake.

    Now that I’ve gone OT enough, I try to get back to the present discussion. It is true that the skaters who dare to go beyond the conventional manners set in the sport, sometimes are not recognized by the judges. Which leads to the fact that we see a lot of program/performance that goes along with the rules, and that’s it. I believe a lot of skaters would like to take that same “brave” route and doing something extraordinary, but in the end, they, or their coaches, or parents, chose to go with the easiest way. Which, of course, is not that “easy” as it seems. The bitter truth is that we’re not talking about “l’art pour l’art” here, but about a sport that requires money, time, sacrifice, etc. (and I say this without pity toward the skaters, because skating is their choice, no one is forcing them). Yes, it’s true that an “artistic” program can still be made and win according to the rules. But a great amount of creativity coming from choreographers and skaters is required. And you can’t do anything if there is not creativity, you can’t make it happen. And considering choreographers have to make a living, we can’t blame them too much for being faithful to the conventions.

    So in the end we must conclude that this unique, and in some way interesting conflict between art and competition has no solution, except in rare cases. Figure skating is not the place in wich search art, because the competitive side will always prevail for one reason or an other.
    I also think, actually, that the nature of art is not competitive. The competitive spirit comes out once again when we enjoy making comparisions between paintings, pieces of music, etc, to decide which one is the best. This seems to be a human obsession. :) But we never see a “painting competition” in TV, because we think that competition is not the true realm of art. There are music competition, like Euromusic, but they are very rare. so, if art is beyond competition, why do we expect to see art in figure skating? :) that’s a logical error, it seems.
    We want both sides of the thing, but it’s wanting too much and we end up obtaining little ((
     
  25. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Oh, really? In your mind, maybe.
     
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    If you are talking about the word emotion/emotional being in an ISU Communication or the rule book in the description for the category Performance/Execution, I was uncertain I knew a reference. If you had a particular reference to the rule book or an ISU Communication, like Aussie, you should have provided it, and it would have been appreciated. In fact, I probably would have personally communicated my appreciation, like I did with Aussie.

    If your point is that the content of ISU Communications and the ISU rule book in the PCS descriptions is in "plain English", meaning clear descriptions in English, I would say that the language in the PCS descriptions is a load of garbage in English words that mask the political nature of the category, and Performance and Execution have no business being combined. However, that is off topic.

    I was one of those that saw emotional connection in Yu Na's performance, and I have said it multiple times in this thread, including in disagreement with Aussie. However, Aussie and I, as members of this forum, have a mutually respectful appreciation for each other's opinions, so disagreements of this nature are not taken personally. In fact, I often learn by listening to others during points of disagreement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  27. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I see your point but have you ever seen Kwan live? She always found a way to emote so that the people in the very last row felt it. The very best manage without the help of a camera. I also never loved Kwans spiral because of the face she made during it. That's just...odd.
     
  28. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Having freshly rewatched the one skating performance that made me :wuzrobbed which I saw live (Shen/Zhao Nutcracker FS at GPF posted on another thread), I certainly agree that close-ups of the face are not key. I never saw their faces in close-up. But they created such an energy, two people skating as one unit, with such unparalleled understanding of each musical nuance that I never needed to. I think this is my #1 favorite performance of all time. *sniff*
     
  29. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Yeah but have you see Yuna live? I have and even next to Michelle. Actually just like your experience with Michelle, according to some fancams I can see some Korean audience are all visibly shaken and teared up, some even burst out crying at the end of the performance, does remind you of Michelle at US Nationals?

    Actually, I think i figured out what what is the problem might be here.

    Yuna is too darn fast in her choreography. It is like she is clearly projecting on all the photographs taken during the performance, but yet somehow this didn't give the youtube audience enough time to intake her projection due to the jam packed choreography. It is like Zooooom... its gone.

    Seriously... i mean just look at all these photographic evidence. Are these not emotional projection enough? What does she have to do?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/queenyuna/page7/

    Her biggest problem maybe she need to cut down half of the choreography, skate at 50% speed so she can conform to the standard lady speed, and give the youtube audiences a bit the time to absorb her 'emotional projection' at a pace they are used to and comfortable.

    Ideally make a point to pause in front of the camera and judging panel, include a new poseography sequence while she bawls her eyes out. It is time to train wet eyetography Yuna. Excercise your tear duct muscles....give them what they want :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  30. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I have seen Yuna live at Worlds 2009. Didn't feel a thing. But I did wave a small Korean flag handed to me by her fans. :)
     
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