Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Jan 6, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    2,591
    227
    63
    How can any judge (or anyone for that matter) evaluate something as complex and inner as this with any kind of accuracy or objectiveness? To determine intellectual connection, wouldn't they also need to have a conversation with the skater? And, then you have to trust that the judge intellectually and emotionally himself has the capacity to understand what the connection should be. All of the things being judged look good on paper, but I think we have gone much too far.
     
  2. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    2,591
    227
    63
    For me the opening movement was definitive. Also some of the asymmetric body lines in the step sequence.
     
  3. lakewood

    lakewood Active Member

    515
    56
    28
    The key difference is that YuNa contributed a lot to skating already (she will in the future too), but Chan is jut doing it.
     
  4. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    4,891
    845
    0
    That is a fantastic camera work, wow! It only gets better and better each time I watch this performance. :swoon:
     
  5. jatale

    jatale New Member

    51
    4
    0
    Well, I'm thrilled with Yuna's new programs, especially with her FS. The music from Les Mis coupled with her choreography is just beautiful to watch and I find it very moving.
     
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,221
    4,465
    113
    This is a much better angle for this program. You can see her emoting more here. There were still parts when she seems to be mentally checked out of the performance but still, here you can see a lot more of her emotional investment and effort than in the video in the OP. A great performance with jumps so late in the program, the tech score would be huge, if clean.
     
  7. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    4,472
    558
    113
    What exactly has she contributed that Chan hasn't???
     
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  8. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    1,520
    212
    0
    I always thought skating should introduce American Idol style critiques from the judges.
     
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    2,041
    477
    83
    LMAO! Now that would be a great way for the sport to gain some popularity! Introduce the Simon of the judging panel. He'll be a mid-aged stuffy British man who mercilessly rips the skaters a new one...

    In Simon Cowell's voice: "That was one of the worst layback spins I've ever seen...absolutely dreadful." :rofl:
     
  10. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    18,196
    2,774
    113
    So the opinions of someone formally trained in evaluating skating performances don't mean as much to you as the opinion of some anonymous poster with no qualifications?
     
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    8,233
    1,294
    113
    :rofl: That's something I'd say. Can I play Simon :2faced: ?
     
  12. ali_dorate

    ali_dorate Active Member

    269
    42
    28
    Thank you so much!!
    This camera work is just incredible. Can't believe this is a fancam version.
    And I enjoyed the gorgeous banners around the rink. So happy for the fans who could appreciate this performance live.
     
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    18,148
    2,174
    113
    Emotion is a subjective concept so is hard to evaluate. In fact there are a number of aspects that go to make up each component so you have to balance one against another. Have a look at this document which explains each of the component criteria - http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

    So just as there has obviously been a division of opinion about whether people were affected emotionally by Yu Na's performance, yes it may have an impact on how a person views the performance and it could have an impact on how a judge evaluates it. For yourself you may have felt something. For myself I didn't feel much at all. But that is not the only criteria I am looking at. And I think from a judging point of view you have to ask yourself questions as the performance is going along to help you with the criteria. It can take years of practise to get in tune with that and you certainly have to watch a hell of a lot of skating.

    For example intellectual connection with the music is something I feel really comfortable evaluating. Because having played music and studied it, I really do look for all those aspects such as timing, phrasing and nuances. Does the skater hold a move with the note? Is the skater on the beat? Is the skater skating to the melody or the beat? Does the skater create pictures in the music for me? If I turned the music off would I see something in the skaters performance to show that the skater is working with the music or just skating through it?

    And that is only the intellectual part of it. Then you have to look at the success of whether it works choreographically and interpretively which are other components.

    I have read some comments in this thread that have really put down others' opinions (mine included). However I can certainly explain from a judging and music point of view why the performance was not as successful for myself in certain component aspects, and I do feel from my years of experience with skating, judging and music that I am qualified to do that. That is not putting the skater down but rather providing an explanation as to why it works for some people and doesn't work for others. But those opinions should be respected and not dismissed out of hand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  14. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

    3,905
    824
    113
    Thank you! It is a much better angle, allowing us to see Yu-Na's and Wilson's intent much better.
    I have some quibbles with "On My Own" section, but overall impression is strong.
     
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    13,007
    1,802
    113
    I find Aussie Willie's posts insightful and balanced - IMO she consciously strives to apply what she has learned and develop her judging ability. I enjoy and learn from her posts.
     
  16. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

    3,905
    824
    113
    Absolutely. So do I.
    One might disagree with an expert, but at least one has to acknowledge they earned a right to their opinion; it is based on years of training.
     
  17. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    4,373
    918
    113
    Exactly. Michelle Kwan certainly never played the character of "Tosca," but it was still a very strong program.
     
  18. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

    31,221
    4,465
    113
    Aussie Willy, love your post. I too studied and played music for many years but was never a figure skating judge. I've also studied ballet although not nearly as long as music and feel that this knowledge plus experience of watching figure skating for as long as I can remember, definitely makes me an informed fan. I know Yuna had said that skating is not the same as ballet, well, that's obvious. However, it wouldn't hurt her to learn some, not only for a better body line but also for understanding of musical phrasing and how you could better interpret it with your body movements, an area where she needs considerable improvement.

    Or at the very least, study music. Carolina Kostner was never a balletic skater but she won me over last season with her wonderful understanding of such a complex piece as Shostakovich. And her Mozart was lovely. She has become a very musical skater.
     
  19. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

    98
    14
    0
    What exactly does this mean? What is it about Yuna's performance that leads you to conclude that she didn't invest herself in it? Can you give an example of where she does and where she does not?
     
  20. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

    2,981
    359
    83
    You're right! Couldn't agree more.
    Hope Yuna's program to express all the emotion to all the skating fan and judges. If reflected, your comments could make the program richer.

    Some posts were a bit sensitive and one-way though, it was worth to read. I mean they're not an expert as you are but they're good on Les miserable. ;) Reading your and others' post, I ordered DVD "LES MISERABLES: IN CONCERT 25TH ANNIVERSARY".

    ETA, Yuna said "I saw the DVD so many times and movie twice" and her coaches did too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  21. naan

    naan New Member

    82
    10
    0
    Thanks for the link, TripleWallie.
    Wow, what a performance! That was very impressive. I really love this program, it's so beautiful :swoon:
     
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    18,148
    2,174
    113
    I was actually just making a general comment in response to a couple of posts that had suggested that they thought the choreogapher had not done a good job. Whilst a choreographer can give a skater all the choreography in the world, unless the skater is really connected to the music then it is going to lack believability and commitment. So I was not actually commenting on the particular skater but expressing one of my ideas about a skaters relationship to their music and something I look for.

    And that also comes from my experience whenever I did programs. I could work with a choreographer, but at the end of the day the small touches, nuances and expression had to come from what I was feeling with the music. And watching even very young skaters, you see that connection with music. I feel it is either something you have or you don't. Although as a skater gains more skills and experience they should get a better understanding of it and be able to express the music better. Because as your technique grows what you can do with it will get better.

    However if you read the rest of my post that you quoted, I did explain why for me the choreography was not up to a senior standard. But I also did say that it could be that the program is new and it might be that she is still finding her way with it which also explains why I think it looks juniorish. Some times it does take time for a skater to work through the music. I never expect a skater to have it all with just one or two performances. But I would really hope that come around Worlds Yu Na's program rocks and its brillant. But it is not there yet.
     
  23. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

    2,981
    359
    83
  24. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

    580
    65
    28
    The "presence" is a league apart. REALLY wish she would keep herself in the fray throughout the lead up into Sochi. Can only help the sport globally.
     
  25. Leeedward

    Leeedward New Member

    268
    61
    0
    I have watched all of this year's Grand Prix events via Ice Network and Universal Sports-- mostly "live"-- and for what it's worth, I've not seen a Ladies' performance that even approaches this one-- either technically, artistcally, or emotionally! The ease and speed of Kim are unmatched even by Kostner at her best--& Kostner doesn't begin to have the technical content of Kim. (By the way Kostner is another favorite of mine) I've seen both--in person--at Worlds (2009) and Olympics(2010). One can really appreciate the impact of speed when seen live, in person. I hope both make it to Sochi!
     
    lowtherlore and (deleted member) like this.
  26. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

    98
    14
    0
    I've seen that one, too, but I'd have to give the other one (in HD) the edge, for three reasons:

    1. The angle/perspective is just perfect for viewing Yuna's facial expressions as well as her jumps, spins and steps.
    2. You can actually see the ice surface, which gives a better sense of her speed and flow across the ice.
    3. The color of the ice surface framing/contrasting her gray dress--it's not accurate to real life, I'm sure, but somehow it's a very pleasing effect visually.

    You can even see Yuna briefly crack a smile as she lands her 3S+2T--her last jumping pass with a triple.
     
  27. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

    2,981
    359
    83
    :respec: That's what I missed in the rink on my seat!
     
  28. lakewood

    lakewood Active Member

    515
    56
    28
    Wow, you saw YuNa's greatest performances all in person!
     
  29. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

    236
    26
    0
    What are you uncertain about? Emotional connection, in plain English, is in the domain of "Performance", and Performance is one part of the combined Performance/Execution category of the the Program Components scores. Execution, on the other hand, refers to the "quality of the movement and precision in delivery".

    Yes, it is, which was precisely my point.
     
  30. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    13,007
    1,802
    113
    This doesn't make sense. Chan has been on the senior circuit for as many or more seasons as Yuna and has two world silver medals as well as two world silver titles. And he has raised the bar of the men's field, which Yuna did not do in a significant way. Although this is really not be Yuna's responsibility - the ladies field seems to continually take one step forward and then two steps back - but if she had competed these past two seasons, there might have been more impetus for the ladies to include more difficult technical content.

    Also, as I understand it, Yunah's motivation for returning is to gain Korea two spots for the Olympics? Or, that is a key motivation? That being the case, will she be motivated to push the envelope artistically or can she do so? This is not to criticize her in anyway, so please don't jump down my throat if you're an uber. The last Olympics belonged to her and she couldn't have been more perfect. It seemed she peaked at the right time, and afterwards she was spent. I don't know if it would be fair to expect her to be on the same or a higher level in the next Olympics.

    Patrick, by contrast, seeks redemption from the last Olympics, and is still continuing to grow as a skater.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.