Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Jan 6, 2013.

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  1. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I've been following this thread with interest and that is not what Aussie Willy has been saying at all. While I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom, I think you don't want to accept that she's not (yet) 100% drooling over Yuna's program.
  2. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    That's a vast understatement. Read through the posts. She's out for anti-propaganda.
  3. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I'd also like to add that, as a professional performing classical musician myself for many years (as well as a former competitive skater), it is rare for any skater to give a compelling "character" interpretation in a program. Yes, I believe it is important for a skater to know any story/character/meaning behind a given piece of music. It is then up to the skater to decide what to do with that knowledge, which does not necessarily have to be an "acting out" of anything in order to be compelling.

    Ladies' exceptions, IMO: I do think Katarina Witt understood and was interpreting Carmen in '88. Janet Lynn's interpretation of Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun" is legendary. There are probably others, but I can't think of any at the moment.

    Michelle Kwan is considered a supreme artist by many fans, but she certainly never acted out the characters of Tosca or Salome. Yet they were sensational programs. Yes, she wore an appropriate enough (skating) costume for Salome, but I'll never be convinced that she was acting out the role of a sex-starved maniac obsessed with seducing John the Baptist. The music itself is powerful and she skated and reacted through the music, not the true personality and mental instability of the character. And it worked.
  4. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Are you saying this for real?:eek:
  5. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Chan was almost nobody prior to Vancouver. He became an important figure only in the last 2-3 years. On the other hand, YuNa was a storm right after her senior debut. She set up new standard for ladies field both technically and artistically. She popularized 3-3, 2-3 as a winning formula. She left most memorable programs in the last Olympic cycle. She brought the Korean skating to the world stage. Those are her contributions to skating.
  6. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Sorry if I offended you. But I meant it. I have some doubt if she's from down under and non-Asian as her nickname suggests. Hope I'm wrong, but the pattern and repetition seem so typical.
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  7. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Ice Alisa , Yu-na studied ballet with Evelyn Hart (how extensively I don't know), who was a prima ballerina with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet.
  8. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Sorry Aussie Willy, you've been found out. The anti-Yuna propaganda plot has been unveiled :drama:

    (yeah! finally I have a reason to use the drama icon - always wanted too :D)

    Beware fellow forumers, there are double agents among us :sekret:
  9. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Valid point.
  10. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    AFAIK, Evelyn Hart was one of many great staffs in Cricket club, among them is a modern hip-hop dance teacher who choreographed Yuna's Bulletproof ex. So my guess is that if Yuna learned some ballet, she did so while she was in Cricket Club.
  11. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Maybe that's me:puppet::sekret:
  12. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    That's true. She also learned ballet (entry-level, I guess) when she was a child.
  13. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    All welcome. I am swimming in toffee popcorn here. It's necessary, as not only is Yu-Na back, but as Euros is coming up :D
  14. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    This is a good remark; I like when someone tries to rationalize what he has before the eyes, instead of throwing the first things that come to the mind (:)

    What actually bothers me is the existence of this “supreme emotional reference” that theguitarist mentions. For two reasons: one, which is obvious, is that having such reference as a meter for any other skating performance kills the individuality of all the skaters. and let’s not even mention when people try to sell this highly subjective meter as an universal belief. This way, judging figure skating becomes a farce.
    The second issue is the word “emotional”. I apologize if I go off topic again, but after all, I take pleasure in expressing my ideas… :D
    The term “emotion” is a very tricky monster, so to speak. Because it deals with something much much more complex than we can imagine. emotions have their roots in our personality, life experience, our subconscious and inconscious, etc. We think we can easily analyse them, and say “My emotions came from my appreciation of this performance and/or music”.

    Reality is different. A lot of things must be taken in account, and one of them is the context of the performance. In this case, its competitive environment: when we see an athlete nailing element after element, we are not just happy for the skater. We feel the excitement coming from our own competitive spirit (shall we call it, competitive greed?). Something that is naturally rooted in any human being - for biological reasons, I suppose. What we see in these skating competitions, what makes them so appealing, what make us fan of a skater, is the projection of our competitive nature. We unconsciously identify in this or that athlete and we want him to win because we want to feel the satisfaction of our “killer” instinct. Some people loved to go to the war, as absurd as it seems, for this very reason. In times of peace, the war instinct transfers in sports. So we study and discuss competitive strategies as we would do in a military attack. Let’s face it: we are much less pacifistic than we think (:)
    All this to say is that, taking the love for Michelle Kwan as an example: part of this love, of all this overwhelming emotions the fans feel in those moments, comes from the pleasure of seeing her win, beating everyone else once again, like a sparkling “war machine” we unconsciously love.

    Nationalism is an other unconscious element of it. Take the Olympics. Suddendly, the nationalities of the skaters count much more than before. They represent a country. It’s also a competition, or better saying a fight between nations. But a fight between nations is also called war. My theory is that the Olympics are considered so highly, as a stand-out competition, because they are a “mini-war”. And emotions run higher than before for the adrenaline of the war, of our killing instincts that burst out. All the media furore around the Games, that some people (rightly) can’t stand, is a minor reason of the excitement and the reverence that the word “Olympics” exude. Something much deeper, hard to admit, is at stake.

    Now that I’ve gone OT enough, I try to get back to the present discussion. It is true that the skaters who dare to go beyond the conventional manners set in the sport, sometimes are not recognized by the judges. Which leads to the fact that we see a lot of program/performance that goes along with the rules, and that’s it. I believe a lot of skaters would like to take that same “brave” route and doing something extraordinary, but in the end, they, or their coaches, or parents, chose to go with the easiest way. Which, of course, is not that “easy” as it seems. The bitter truth is that we’re not talking about “l’art pour l’art” here, but about a sport that requires money, time, sacrifice, etc. (and I say this without pity toward the skaters, because skating is their choice, no one is forcing them). Yes, it’s true that an “artistic” program can still be made and win according to the rules. But a great amount of creativity coming from choreographers and skaters is required. And you can’t do anything if there is not creativity, you can’t make it happen. And considering choreographers have to make a living, we can’t blame them too much for being faithful to the conventions.

    So in the end we must conclude that this unique, and in some way interesting conflict between art and competition has no solution, except in rare cases. Figure skating is not the place in wich search art, because the competitive side will always prevail for one reason or an other.
    I also think, actually, that the nature of art is not competitive. The competitive spirit comes out once again when we enjoy making comparisions between paintings, pieces of music, etc, to decide which one is the best. This seems to be a human obsession. :) But we never see a “painting competition” in TV, because we think that competition is not the true realm of art. There are music competition, like Euromusic, but they are very rare. so, if art is beyond competition, why do we expect to see art in figure skating? :) that’s a logical error, it seems.
    We want both sides of the thing, but it’s wanting too much and we end up obtaining little ((
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Oh, really? In your mind, maybe.
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    If you are talking about the word emotion/emotional being in an ISU Communication or the rule book in the description for the category Performance/Execution, I was uncertain I knew a reference. If you had a particular reference to the rule book or an ISU Communication, like Aussie, you should have provided it, and it would have been appreciated. In fact, I probably would have personally communicated my appreciation, like I did with Aussie.

    If your point is that the content of ISU Communications and the ISU rule book in the PCS descriptions is in "plain English", meaning clear descriptions in English, I would say that the language in the PCS descriptions is a load of garbage in English words that mask the political nature of the category, and Performance and Execution have no business being combined. However, that is off topic.

    I was one of those that saw emotional connection in Yu Na's performance, and I have said it multiple times in this thread, including in disagreement with Aussie. However, Aussie and I, as members of this forum, have a mutually respectful appreciation for each other's opinions, so disagreements of this nature are not taken personally. In fact, I often learn by listening to others during points of disagreement.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  17. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I see your point but have you ever seen Kwan live? She always found a way to emote so that the people in the very last row felt it. The very best manage without the help of a camera. I also never loved Kwans spiral because of the face she made during it. That's just...odd.
  18. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Having freshly rewatched the one skating performance that made me :wuzrobbed which I saw live (Shen/Zhao Nutcracker FS at GPF posted on another thread), I certainly agree that close-ups of the face are not key. I never saw their faces in close-up. But they created such an energy, two people skating as one unit, with such unparalleled understanding of each musical nuance that I never needed to. I think this is my #1 favorite performance of all time. *sniff*
  19. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Yeah but have you see Yuna live? I have and even next to Michelle. Actually just like your experience with Michelle, according to some fancams I can see some Korean audience are all visibly shaken and teared up, some even burst out crying at the end of the performance, does remind you of Michelle at US Nationals?

    Actually, I think i figured out what what is the problem might be here.

    Yuna is too darn fast in her choreography. It is like she is clearly projecting on all the photographs taken during the performance, but yet somehow this didn't give the youtube audience enough time to intake her projection due to the jam packed choreography. It is like Zooooom... its gone.

    Seriously... i mean just look at all these photographic evidence. Are these not emotional projection enough? What does she have to do?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/queenyuna/page7/

    Her biggest problem maybe she need to cut down half of the choreography, skate at 50% speed so she can conform to the standard lady speed, and give the youtube audiences a bit the time to absorb her 'emotional projection' at a pace they are used to and comfortable.

    Ideally make a point to pause in front of the camera and judging panel, include a new poseography sequence while she bawls her eyes out. It is time to train wet eyetography Yuna. Excercise your tear duct muscles....give them what they want :lol:
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  20. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    I have seen Yuna live at Worlds 2009. Didn't feel a thing. But I did wave a small Korean flag handed to me by her fans. :)
  21. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    That's okay. She is not for everyone. I don't think anyone felt anything either when you admit this. Nice of you to wave the small Korean flag though ;)
  22. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    It's nothing that Yu-Na's doing wrong. She doesn't need to display her face or slow down so people can see.

    Obviously with people cheering and crying, she's doing what she needs to do. She's connecting with people; but if that connection isn't there, it's just not there. For me, I don't connect with Yu-Na emotionally when she skates. I can see the emotion on her face so I know she's emoting while she's skating. I just don't feel it and that has nothing to do with her.

    I'm sure the same applies for other people when you talk about Michelle. Michelle has moved me to tears on a number of occasions b/c I was emotionally invested in her as a skater. She's the only skater I've ever been that invested in b/c she's the only skater I literally grew up watching for 10 years of my life. A lot of her fans feel that way b/c we watched her for so long and experienced all of the things she went through, good and bad. We're fans, we love her, we feel like we know her. When she'd skate, we could feel her emotions and her heart. If you don't have that connection to Michelle then you probably don't get why fans gush so much about her...it's probably pretty annoying to you. :p I know I don't get all of the gushing about Yu-Na's new programs this year. Honestly, I'm a little disappointed in them...but I completely understand why others feel differently. A lot of people don't get what was so special about Michelle's Tosca or Aranjuez...Michelle's fans do though :)

    As for Yu-Na, I've watched her grow and mature through the years and I am in awe of the amazing skater and woman she's become. However, I don't find myself to be emotionally invested in her. I love her skating, I cheer for her, I want her to do well...but unlike with Michelle, if Yu-Na doesn't win my world doesn't come to a stop. That was the case with Michelle. I'd get so nervous whenever she'd skate and the outcome of her competitions usually dictated how the rest of my day would be (I've been like that with basketball too; it's a drawback of being a fan). It's not like that for me with Yu-Na or any of the other skaters I follow now (Mao, Ashley, Akiko, Carolina, Mirai, Adelina and several others). As much as I love all of these skaters, I'm not emotionally invested in any of them which is great for me b/c it allows me to just watch skating. One of the skaters I'm cheering for usually wins so in the end I'm happy either way. :)

    So if people don't feel the emotion from Yu-Na it's not her fault and there's nothing she can do to fix that. Not everyone is going to feel the same way about every skater...
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  23. Leeedward

    Leeedward New Member

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    Well, Chan is certainly growing artistically, but this season has not been his most stellar, results-wise. With the wrap-up of last season, he was considered a shoo-in to become the next Olympic Men's gold medalist. However, clouds are creeping in with the culmination of this Grand Prix season. Notwithstanding, he's still a shoo-in for Canadian Nationals, but World's is not so certain. Will be interesting! With the possibility of Carolina & Kim returning to the World scene in the ladies' competition, the intrigue is even more complex! What a treat for skating fans.
  24. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Okay now I am really pissed off. You are such a deluded idiot that you don't think I am from Australia? Just because I might say anything slightly negative about Yu Na which YOU don't agree with? What makes you so superior that you think you can insult people and accuse them of not being from a county they say they are?

    I live in a suburb called Carrum Downs, I work in a suburb called Bentleigh East and I skate at a rink called the Icehouse in Docklands which is in the Melbourne CBD. Do a google search on all those things and then provide me an apology you freakin moron!!!!!

    In fact to suggest that someone is Asian because they take a stand point that you disagree with is stereotyping and has racist connotations.

    In the meantime I am going to put you on the ignore list because it is just not worth reading your shit!!!

    BTW - for those with the popcorn, I hope you have been suitably entertained :)
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  25. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Is it me or does almost every other thread on this message board switch to a discussion about Kwan or Chan sooner or later?:lol:

    I've just watched Yuna's free skate from the Korean Championships and I have to say I am deeply impressed with her level of skating, she is still the lady to beat IMO and if she skates at the next Worlds like she has at these recent Nationals, I would dare to predict she will get the highest technical score as well as highest components scores of all ladies out there whether the judges will feel something while watching her or not.
  26. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ^^JERRY! JERRY! JERRY! :D
  27. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    Martyross, your long post nearly :watch: me except the last paragraph. :D
    Agree. There is unlikely any concrete solution to arguments on art and sports. Art is highly subjective and creativity is the key word. Sport is acquiring a set of skills and pitting these skills against others in competitions. We can all argue till kingdom come in skating forums and in all honesty, no end to who is right or wrong.

    Peace to all .... ;)
  28. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    Yup. I cried at Savchenko/Szolkowy's "Schindler's List" at LA Worlds, and I was far away. And though "Shindler's List" is emotional music, it was not that. It was " They are so beautifully harmonious in every movement". And even Robin's falling on his a++ did not kill it. Skating is expressed in gestures to music, in having an overall idea and in attention to detail. One can choose to be a character, a different version of a character or one can choose to interpret music abstractly.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
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  29. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    Aussie Willy :respec:
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  30. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    Please. What does that even mean, why do you throw John Cage out there. What you suggest would simply mean skating with no music. Throwing John Cage's name on top of it would not be in competition rules, and not appropriate for a sport. I like Yu-Na's program, but it's not like she interpreted a late Beethoven Sonata! Les Mis is neither rocket science, nor conceptual avantgarde ( I like it and know every word by heart, but please let's not make it an inaccessible masterpiece understood by a select few)
  31. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    So, you were one of the minorities who didn't feel.
  32. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Aussie Willy, please calm down. :) Sorry I pissed you off.

    I’ve been below equator just once, to Bali, Indonesia. I want to visit Melbourne, Tasmania and New Zealand, some other time.

    It was fun reading your posts. But for the concerted effort, I really hate buddy groups doing that in any on-line public forum, for several reasons.

    On the Asian remark, you misunderstood me. ;)
  33. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, well IceAlisa did not feel it when watching Michelle Kwan either . . . as a result, we had a good time of it :argue: . . . Ah, the good old days . . . I had so many red blobs :D
  34. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    There are a few programs of Kwan's that I really liked. :drama: And while I wasn't a fan of MK, I vastly prefer her over Yuna. As a skater, she always looked elegant on the ice.
  35. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't comparing Kwan to Yu Na. I was making absolutely no remark about Yu Na's skating in my post. I was simply asking the poster if they had ever seen Kwan skate live because it was definitely not all about camera work, those same feelings came across to everyone in the arena. That is all.
  36. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    There is no misunderstanding - to quote you -
    Why mention Non-Asian if you were not suggesting I were? And what do you mean by being part of a buddy group? And to be so rude about someone does not suggest that it is fun reading my posts.

    Well you were incredibly wrong but because I am gracious I appreciate that you have apologised and I will accept it. But you really should think before you write something like that again about anyone on this forum.
  37. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    I have never connected or been moved by Yu-na until this performance. She was a revelation to me. Her performance is a finely nuanced one with delicate subtlety. For me, it is the most exciting and moving performance I have seen from a male or female since Michelle left competition. The sheer beauty of it. A few of the hand movements seemed more mechanic than felt, but when a skater knows a difficult jump is coming up I would expect these kinds of occasional lapses.

    Does anyone think she might have peaked and too soon? I remember when Michelle skated Arianne (spelling) for the first time, at the world pro competition. She was absolutely brilliant and flawless. This was the program she did the Charlotte at the beginning. She never was able to skate the program that way again, not at nationals nor at worlds, albeit she was not feeling her best at worlds due to flu or cold.
  38. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Michelle is my favorite skater of all time but, really, saying "those same feelings came across to everyone in the arena" is not likely to be accurate. Personally, I appreciated her lots more on tv than live.
  39. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Fine. I think we all now know that everyone feels differently, and everyone on this forum knows that you don't like YuNa. Then, what is the point of your putting down YuNa so repeatedly, always the same story. That proves nothing except that you hate YuNa, which everybody already knows.
  40. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I had a look at IceAlisa's posts and all I can see is that she is just not a fan of Yu Na. Just basically said Yu Na does nothing for her. Totally acceaptable to say that. But at no time is she putting her down, espousing hate nore being incredibly negative. It is just about personal preference. But the fact you are interpreting that way indicates that I think you are being particularly sensitive.
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