Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Jan 6, 2013.

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  1. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I thought the same too but overall, I just don't like either program. The music is too dramatic in the SP and I'm just not feeling the Les Mis edits at all. I kept wondering what she could add to it that would make me like it but I don't think it's her performance; it's the programs overall. Some were emotionally moved to tears...not even close for me, though I've never been emotionally moved by Yu-Na to be honest. Her skating has always entertained me and certain programs really pull me in but it's never been on an emotional level. I just enjoy watching her skate. These programs are decent but Yu-Na's standard is "great" in my mind and, to me, neither of these programs are great.

    Different strokes for different folks I guess. But if people were boo-hooing while watching her, she must be doing something right...even if I don't get it :)
     
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I'm not certain about that either since the PCS category is "Performance Execution", not just performance.
     
  3. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    Same here.

    I also really think David Wilson is losing his touch. Too bad for me as a fan of Yu-Na; I think her best programs were her 2011 FS and her Lark Ascending (2007?), which unfortunately were never skated clean.
     
  4. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ITA. I would like to see her skate sans the OTBs. A lot of the senior ladies have ditched the covers...I'd love to see Yu-Na do the same. Besides, they aren't doing Yu-Na any favors anyway. She's always had heavy-looking, kinda blocky feet and I don't think that's going to change. With the OTBs it makes her feet look even clunkier. I don't really notice her feet as much when she skates without the OTBs...I hope someone suggests that to her.

    But Yu-Na's upper body lines are wonderful. Very elegant, graceful and fluid...it's an interesting contrast. I've gotten over her less than stellar lower body lines though. The only time I really notice them are in her spins and spiral.

    Has she ever tried a spiral a la Nancy Kerrigan? http://web.mit.edu/skatingclub/images/nancy_kerrigan.jpg

    She'd get a straighter and better upper body line, more elevation in the free leg, plus it might be easier to point her toe and turn it out...just a suggestion.
     
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  5. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    Thanks for the long reply, os168 :) I find your take on "Someone like you" and "On my own" interesting, and I think you’re right in saying that Wilson wanted to let Yu-Na talk about herself in “On my own” section. This makes it very special, wathever coreography he put in it.
    Well, probably it’s a matter of personal reasons behind my little criticism, as I have some issues with the musical and the book itself (an epic, gigantic novel I worshipped some years ago until I switched to a permanent phase of rejection toward eighteen century romanticism). Don’t want to go OT too much, just to briefly say that the novel sounds quite tear-jerking in describing some situations, which is typical of that era of course, but to make a musical out of it dangerously leads to even more tear-jerking effects. the whole operation is unintentionally plagued by bad taste. As we all know, poverty is a serious matter. It must not be treated with a tear-jerking tone. Yes, thousands of people are moved to tears by the misfortunes of the good, generous characters, especially because their actions are described in a melodramatic fashion. But in all this crying and tearing-up etc., we end up feeling a certain narcissistic pleasure, which is actually the pleasure of seeing them suffering, dying tragically, etc. We could call it a “sadistic” pleasure. That’s my problem with some famous stories coming from that era, such as Notre Dame de Paris, The lady of the camellias, etc. The bad taste may also lay in the fact that the book/musical audience is mostly composed of people who never knew real poverty, so a story about such theme must hurt this audience, not making it cry in a nice, pleasant and self-reassuring way. Yes, the novel is not just about poverty (and in fact the parts I like the most don’t deal with this “theme”), but I had to simplify for the sake of the readers’ patience (:)
    The second problem with Eponine’s song especially, is that the lyrics are way too sentimental and trite, and doesn’t do justice to a very good character, although much idealized (according to the romantic canon). Of course the musical doesn't have to be absolutely faithful to the source. But I still think that the lyrics here are disappointing because they reduce Eponine’s feelings to the standard emotions of pop songs we’ve heard thousand of times.
    As I said, the David’s choreography here doesn’t show much creativity and, for the reasons above, it runs the risk to increase the conventional tone in which Eponine's emotions were expressed in the first place. but I highly admire David Wilson’s genius (I love the “kitschy” Vampire program for the very reasons you’ve mentioned) and I can’t certainly dictate him to follow my personal preferences (:) of course, Yuna’s performance of Les Misérables is something to treasure for the purity and sincerity of her intentions.
     
  6. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I don't think David's losing his touch. I think it's that both Yu-Na and David knew this would be a short season for her and decided to put together two programs that would get the job done. From the looks of it, neither program got the same attention to detail as Bond, Danse, Gershwin or even Homage.

    I really wish she'd have stuck with Giselle and Homage this year. Giselle wasn't spectacular but I think it's much better than Vampire. But Homage was such a unique and personal program. The music edit was wonderful IMO. The whole program was well pieced together in a way that it felt like a ride; there were highs and lows, lighter parts and parts that were pensive and thoughtful. I really feel like Homage had the potential to be a masterpiece if she'd have gotten more mileage out of it. Comparing it to Les Mis...there is no comparison. Homage is leaps and bounds/light years better IMO.

    *sigh* I really wanted to see her compete with those programs again...
     
  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of where the music comes from, the skater should still be using it as the basis of the structure and choreographic content of the program. Put it this way, if someone had no knowledge of where that music came from or had never heard it, they should still understand the skater is creating pictures with it. So the skater needs to take into account the phrasing, timing and nuances to put together their program to demonstrate that they understand the music. At the end of the day it is a piece of music to skate to, but who really gives a rats whether they are basing it on a character from the musical where the music came from. As long as they use it to create a program which people can connect to and can understand a skaters choreographic intent.
     
  8. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Emotional and intellectual connection with the music is evaluated as part of the Performance/Execution component.
     
  9. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    "Spark" doesn't count? Once upon a time it did.:)
     
  10. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I agree. It's always nice to have a story but I don't think skating to a certain type of music requires that you play the character associated with that music. Sometimes it's better but at times connecting to the music is more important than trying to tell a story or portray a character...
     
  11. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I personally prefer to see skaters show spark a la Chase Michael Michaels style.
     
  12. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. The jumps were sublime. The rest of it............really felt soul-less. Don't know if it was the choreography, the particular music version, or her head just not in the game. I kept waiting for something "big" to happen.........a definitive movement to that amazing music......like the buildup to a MK spiral........or passion....the buildup you should have in a skate......think V/M telling a story. They are not just doing moves and tricks.

    Anyway, I am sure it will be better at worlds.
     
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  13. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Then you must not be reading very carefully.
     
  14. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    :yikes::wall::scream::scream:
     
  15. falling_dance

    falling_dance Bravo, Patrick.

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  16. Leeedward

    Leeedward New Member

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    Be that as it may, we haven't seen anything that comes close to this lady's skating in quite a while--certainly not in this present Women's Olympic Cycle. Glorious skating, indeed, despite a plethora of online pseudo experts' feeble, ill-conceived pickings as to the "lack of emotion or skimpiness of detail" in this performance. (How dare, in this season where one hardly afforded to exhale during some of the recent Grand Prix events out of fear of mass implosion.) Indeed Miss Kim brings a refreshing breath of new life to our current skating world. Brava!!
     
  17. LKR

    LKR Active Member

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    I doubt it will happen, but I would love for Yu-Na to restore Homage for the Olympics. It had such potential, and it's unfortunate that such an interesting program got shelved after only one outing.
     
  18. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Um, at least one of the posters in this thread is a skating judge.

    And I'm not sure what makes your online-pseudo-expert opinion any more valid than any other online-pseudo-expert's opinion.
     
  19. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    If you don't value the opinion of the overwhelming majority of people on this board, why come here?

    This board is known for having some of the most informed fans plus some present and former judges, skating officials, and skaters.

    Also, I don't think just being better than the field is something that a skater at the level of Yu Na or Patrick Chan should strive for, which is why I point out things that could be better, and many others here feel the same. These two are so close to pushing the sport, but neither have produced the equivalent of Dick Button's 2A or 3Lp. Nobody has done it before is very different than nobody has done it better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  20. Shaia

    Shaia New Member

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    Agreed that Homage was a special piece that had all the signs of blossoming into a masterpiece. If I could ask Yuna to perform one program only, I would ask her to perform Homage.

    But Les Mis is certainly a not too shabby of a program on its own - I love the music edits, and its signature moments alone - the halfway point sequence starting with "On my own" leading up to Yuna's second lutz, make this program one of my favorite Yuna programs.
     
  21. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    I absolutely echoe the bolded part, that's why I see some really valid points among these criticisms. But I do think both Yuna and Patrick have pushed this sport to the better place when they are around showcasing their very best talents.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  22. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ I think that is reasonable, l'etoile. They both certainly revitalized that underappreciated part of the sport, the part where the blades are in contact with the ice.
     
  23. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I think the key difference is that Chan keeps pushing himself to improve his artistry and become an even better skater than he was last season. I don't see that with Yu Na. Of course, Patrick does not have an OGM.
     
  24. Shaia

    Shaia New Member

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    Well said. My sentiments exactly.


    LOL. What "overwhelming majority" are you talking about? Aside from nitpicks by a few armchair critics here, the general consensus is that overall, this was a great skating performance. If you don't see that, maybe you are following a wrong sport?

    As for your "critique" about how a skater should not just be better than everyone else, but do things that nobody has done before, well, that is either (1) a supreme compliment and recognition of the skater's talent or (2) your agenda is to nitpick and criticize when there is really not much to criticize. In goodwill, I will take it as the former. :p
     
  25. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Things are not always black and white, you know. IMO bardtoob was suggesting a great point in general, and (almost) everyone has their own beliefs and bases on their criticisms which were also given in their posts. Of course, except some comments intended to be just plain evil or snide which I have not yet seen many(or any) in this thread.
     
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I don't suppose you read the post where I said it was the best performance of the season :rolleyes:

    The overwhelming majority on this board are armchair critic pseudo experts, including myself. Most people have this level of involvement with respects to professional sports, and they are very important because THEY PAY FOR THE SPORT. They are called fans, which is short for fanatics. They are the type of people that call into football and baseball talk show radio and post on figure skating boards. They can identify sacks, ground roll doubles, and rocker entry 3As because they are interested enough to learn for their own enjoyment.

    And, of course, I was complimenting Yu Na's talent by suggesting that she should be doing extraordinary things with her talent rather than just doing things that come easy to her. No one ever knows what their true ability is until it is pushed to the point that failure is a possibility.

    ETA: I have to wonder what some people think "forum" means, and what they consider their relationship to others is within a forum.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  27. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    As overedge pointed out, at least one poster here is a judge, which makes her an expert to a certain degree. But while I disagree that her (and other) arguments are feeble and ill-conceived, I do agree that this performance is amongst the best we've seen for quite some time - though in technical terms.

    If Yuna skates such a technically flawless program at Worlds, she could well win it. Kostner would have a chance of beating her, but I'm not sure anyone else will. Mao perhaps, if she successfully brings back the 3A and skates clean. But that's not something I'd putting money on.
     
  28. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    I agree. It was something quite new in single skating, even though Lu Chen's 1995 great FS set to "The last emperor" comes close. Given her love for Korea and her constant will to show gratitude to her Korean fans, I wonder if Yuna is considering re-using that at the Olympics.

    Btw, if you notice, this year Yuna and David followed a similar pattern in conceiving the SP and the FS. This year (fantastic) SP is about the states of mind of a girl bitten by a vampire, who undergo quite a transformation, from human to non-human. She loses all the traits of humanity and acquires those of a vampire. she doesn't only change her eating habits, so to speak. She actually undergoes a change in her soul, or better saying in her whole being. She is now a dangerous creature who threatens her former fellows (humans) of being "kissed" by her (we can't deny that biting necks and sucking blood out has a poweful erothic fascination... as the success of "Twilight" testify :p ). This program is about a Re-birth, as os168 pointed out here or elsewhere. And I personally rave on such concept and theatrical realization. David not only saw the hidden sensuality of this b-movie piano tunes, but also emphasizes the ecstatic feelings of acquiring more and more power, in subjugating men erothically, in commanding over life and death. It's great.
    The Giselle SP, in the same way, deals with the mental states of a girl who gets transformed into a ghost, but this tranformation is a much more tragic one because she loses her loved one but keeps her human feelings and memories (i.e., she will regret the loss for the rest of her non-human life, or better saying, living death). There is a gothic nuance in both programs, something I would love to see in figure skating more often.
    Anyway, my point is that both SP's are about the individual, while both FS's deal with the collective (and have a similar structure).

    And, if I may add my 2 cents to the "heated" debate over armchair fans, I believe the general problem in discussing skaters is that some fans always expect them to be perfect, which means, bringing the jumps, showing beautiful lines and moving the fans emotionally. Well, before scrutinize these poor athletes and find their "shortcomings", why don't you go out there on the ice, fullfill all that you ask them and then expect the same from them? :D
     
  29. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Good! Then I assume he/she would be keen on understanding and acknowledging the strengths of the skaters too and at the least balanced in his/her opinion. Otherwise I don’t give a hoot if he/she’s an expert, a judge, or a teacher of judges.
     
  30. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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