Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Jan 6, 2013.

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  1. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    How can any judge (or anyone for that matter) evaluate something as complex and inner as this with any kind of accuracy or objectiveness? To determine intellectual connection, wouldn't they also need to have a conversation with the skater? And, then you have to trust that the judge intellectually and emotionally himself has the capacity to understand what the connection should be. All of the things being judged look good on paper, but I think we have gone much too far.
  2. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    For me the opening movement was definitive. Also some of the asymmetric body lines in the step sequence.
  3. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    The key difference is that YuNa contributed a lot to skating already (she will in the future too), but Chan is jut doing it.
  4. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    That is a fantastic camera work, wow! It only gets better and better each time I watch this performance. :swoon:
  5. jatale

    jatale New Member

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    Well, I'm thrilled with Yuna's new programs, especially with her FS. The music from Les Mis coupled with her choreography is just beautiful to watch and I find it very moving.
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    This is a much better angle for this program. You can see her emoting more here. There were still parts when she seems to be mentally checked out of the performance but still, here you can see a lot more of her emotional investment and effort than in the video in the OP. A great performance with jumps so late in the program, the tech score would be huge, if clean.
  7. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    What exactly has she contributed that Chan hasn't???
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  8. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I always thought skating should introduce American Idol style critiques from the judges.
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    LMAO! Now that would be a great way for the sport to gain some popularity! Introduce the Simon of the judging panel. He'll be a mid-aged stuffy British man who mercilessly rips the skaters a new one...

    In Simon Cowell's voice: "That was one of the worst layback spins I've ever seen...absolutely dreadful." :rofl:
  10. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    So the opinions of someone formally trained in evaluating skating performances don't mean as much to you as the opinion of some anonymous poster with no qualifications?
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  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: That's something I'd say. Can I play Simon :2faced: ?
  12. ali_dorate

    ali_dorate New Member

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    Thank you so much!!
    This camera work is just incredible. Can't believe this is a fancam version.
    And I enjoyed the gorgeous banners around the rink. So happy for the fans who could appreciate this performance live.
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Emotion is a subjective concept so is hard to evaluate. In fact there are a number of aspects that go to make up each component so you have to balance one against another. Have a look at this document which explains each of the component criteria - http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

    So just as there has obviously been a division of opinion about whether people were affected emotionally by Yu Na's performance, yes it may have an impact on how a person views the performance and it could have an impact on how a judge evaluates it. For yourself you may have felt something. For myself I didn't feel much at all. But that is not the only criteria I am looking at. And I think from a judging point of view you have to ask yourself questions as the performance is going along to help you with the criteria. It can take years of practise to get in tune with that and you certainly have to watch a hell of a lot of skating.

    For example intellectual connection with the music is something I feel really comfortable evaluating. Because having played music and studied it, I really do look for all those aspects such as timing, phrasing and nuances. Does the skater hold a move with the note? Is the skater on the beat? Is the skater skating to the melody or the beat? Does the skater create pictures in the music for me? If I turned the music off would I see something in the skaters performance to show that the skater is working with the music or just skating through it?

    And that is only the intellectual part of it. Then you have to look at the success of whether it works choreographically and interpretively which are other components.

    I have read some comments in this thread that have really put down others' opinions (mine included). However I can certainly explain from a judging and music point of view why the performance was not as successful for myself in certain component aspects, and I do feel from my years of experience with skating, judging and music that I am qualified to do that. That is not putting the skater down but rather providing an explanation as to why it works for some people and doesn't work for others. But those opinions should be respected and not dismissed out of hand.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  14. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! It is a much better angle, allowing us to see Yu-Na's and Wilson's intent much better.
    I have some quibbles with "On My Own" section, but overall impression is strong.
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I find Aussie Willie's posts insightful and balanced - IMO she consciously strives to apply what she has learned and develop her judging ability. I enjoy and learn from her posts.
  16. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. So do I.
    One might disagree with an expert, but at least one has to acknowledge they earned a right to their opinion; it is based on years of training.
  17. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Michelle Kwan certainly never played the character of "Tosca," but it was still a very strong program.
  18. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Aussie Willy, love your post. I too studied and played music for many years but was never a figure skating judge. I've also studied ballet although not nearly as long as music and feel that this knowledge plus experience of watching figure skating for as long as I can remember, definitely makes me an informed fan. I know Yuna had said that skating is not the same as ballet, well, that's obvious. However, it wouldn't hurt her to learn some, not only for a better body line but also for understanding of musical phrasing and how you could better interpret it with your body movements, an area where she needs considerable improvement.

    Or at the very least, study music. Carolina Kostner was never a balletic skater but she won me over last season with her wonderful understanding of such a complex piece as Shostakovich. And her Mozart was lovely. She has become a very musical skater.
  19. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    What exactly does this mean? What is it about Yuna's performance that leads you to conclude that she didn't invest herself in it? Can you give an example of where she does and where she does not?
  20. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    You're right! Couldn't agree more.
    Hope Yuna's program to express all the emotion to all the skating fan and judges. If reflected, your comments could make the program richer.

    Some posts were a bit sensitive and one-way though, it was worth to read. I mean they're not an expert as you are but they're good on Les miserable. ;) Reading your and others' post, I ordered DVD "LES MISERABLES: IN CONCERT 25TH ANNIVERSARY".

    ETA, Yuna said "I saw the DVD so many times and movie twice" and her coaches did too.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  21. naan

    naan New Member

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    Thanks for the link, TripleWallie.
    Wow, what a performance! That was very impressive. I really love this program, it's so beautiful :swoon:
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I was actually just making a general comment in response to a couple of posts that had suggested that they thought the choreogapher had not done a good job. Whilst a choreographer can give a skater all the choreography in the world, unless the skater is really connected to the music then it is going to lack believability and commitment. So I was not actually commenting on the particular skater but expressing one of my ideas about a skaters relationship to their music and something I look for.

    And that also comes from my experience whenever I did programs. I could work with a choreographer, but at the end of the day the small touches, nuances and expression had to come from what I was feeling with the music. And watching even very young skaters, you see that connection with music. I feel it is either something you have or you don't. Although as a skater gains more skills and experience they should get a better understanding of it and be able to express the music better. Because as your technique grows what you can do with it will get better.

    However if you read the rest of my post that you quoted, I did explain why for me the choreography was not up to a senior standard. But I also did say that it could be that the program is new and it might be that she is still finding her way with it which also explains why I think it looks juniorish. Some times it does take time for a skater to work through the music. I never expect a skater to have it all with just one or two performances. But I would really hope that come around Worlds Yu Na's program rocks and its brillant. But it is not there yet.
  23. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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  24. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    The "presence" is a league apart. REALLY wish she would keep herself in the fray throughout the lead up into Sochi. Can only help the sport globally.
  25. Leeedward

    Leeedward New Member

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    I have watched all of this year's Grand Prix events via Ice Network and Universal Sports-- mostly "live"-- and for what it's worth, I've not seen a Ladies' performance that even approaches this one-- either technically, artistcally, or emotionally! The ease and speed of Kim are unmatched even by Kostner at her best--& Kostner doesn't begin to have the technical content of Kim. (By the way Kostner is another favorite of mine) I've seen both--in person--at Worlds (2009) and Olympics(2010). One can really appreciate the impact of speed when seen live, in person. I hope both make it to Sochi!
    lowtherlore and (deleted member) like this.
  26. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    I've seen that one, too, but I'd have to give the other one (in HD) the edge, for three reasons:

    1. The angle/perspective is just perfect for viewing Yuna's facial expressions as well as her jumps, spins and steps.
    2. You can actually see the ice surface, which gives a better sense of her speed and flow across the ice.
    3. The color of the ice surface framing/contrasting her gray dress--it's not accurate to real life, I'm sure, but somehow it's a very pleasing effect visually.

    You can even see Yuna briefly crack a smile as she lands her 3S+2T--her last jumping pass with a triple.
  27. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    :respec: That's what I missed in the rink on my seat!
  28. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    Wow, you saw YuNa's greatest performances all in person!
  29. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    What are you uncertain about? Emotional connection, in plain English, is in the domain of "Performance", and Performance is one part of the combined Performance/Execution category of the the Program Components scores. Execution, on the other hand, refers to the "quality of the movement and precision in delivery".

    Yes, it is, which was precisely my point.
  30. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't make sense. Chan has been on the senior circuit for as many or more seasons as Yuna and has two world silver medals as well as two world silver titles. And he has raised the bar of the men's field, which Yuna did not do in a significant way. Although this is really not be Yuna's responsibility - the ladies field seems to continually take one step forward and then two steps back - but if she had competed these past two seasons, there might have been more impetus for the ladies to include more difficult technical content.

    Also, as I understand it, Yunah's motivation for returning is to gain Korea two spots for the Olympics? Or, that is a key motivation? That being the case, will she be motivated to push the envelope artistically or can she do so? This is not to criticize her in anyway, so please don't jump down my throat if you're an uber. The last Olympics belonged to her and she couldn't have been more perfect. It seemed she peaked at the right time, and afterwards she was spent. I don't know if it would be fair to expect her to be on the same or a higher level in the next Olympics.

    Patrick, by contrast, seeks redemption from the last Olympics, and is still continuing to grow as a skater.
  31. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    Not at all. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2012/07/136_114259.html

    The answer's in the article.

    Who dare to deny it!
  32. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I can see the hunting season is on. Everyone sharpens their knives and polishes their poison arrows. This is all very entertaining but alas a bit mean spirited with lots of fake smilies.

    Aussie Willy, are you really a judge? If so, is it really in your 'professional' opinion that Yuna perform juniorish and have poor musicality? If so, I am honestly surprised.
    if Yuna skate juniorish, then you must be my favourite infant level judge ever! ;)


    There's always Sochi? :) Though I am on the fence on this one, since I am a natural progressive.

    I know you appreciate 'homage' alot but imagine if someone keep goes to every Michelle's thread after her Lyra Angelica and goes, well I don't think it is good as Lyra, here's why blah blah blah. When in fact art should never be stationary, so I appreciate they keep trying something new every season avoid being be formulaic and safe.

    I like this program for its striving for good balance of everything instead of following the current risk/reward COP trends formula. For example 4 of her jump passes are well spaced out towards the middle 3rd of the rink, 1 jump on one end of the rink, 2 jumps on the other. This showcased how little time she actually need set up her jumps as oppose to those who takes ages to set up their jumps and only able to do them at either end of the rink. This should be especially commended as her jumps are usually proceed by difficult entries/transitions. Even though this increased the difficulty and risk to able to do this and is virtually worthless under COP. I consider the approach Yuna's little Les Mis revolution against the COP not picking the obvious COP smart way to skate for points. Her 3lz3t difficult combo might seem worth less than during the Olympics, (that many prefer 2A3T, or 3T3T now days consider the change in values on all the jumps except 3lz remain unchanged), she still kept it to her tip top Olympic standards despite depreciated GOEs overall. I just love how she strives for maximum content and difficulty every time she steps on the ice and never dumb down her content for an easy win, doesn't matter if it is the beginning of the season or the prestige of the ice.

    One of my biggest gripes about Morozov's cookie cutter programs is how he apparently established the current COP friendly/optimised/smart formula that produces the typical cookie cutter packaging I complain alot on this board circa 2011. Therefore I shouldn't be surprised how everything turned out in 2012 is exactly what I predicted. That 'package' consist of 'complementary music' (to hide weakness of skater, poor musicality? Give her an obvious steady beat.) and 'thematic' package (inoffensive, vanilla conventional, costumes, choreography structured for consistency and for 10% bonus), little strive for authenticity and originality (to the music's intention) and blatantly disregard the antiquity of art. Where music were selected because of their tempo structure to makes it easy to skate as oppose to make reverence to the correct way to interpret the music according to their significance and meaning. For the ladies, the increasing trend of 1st half of the programs generally consist of minimum choreography to get the big money jumps out of the way - with as little transitions as possible to improve consistency for GOEs and PCS (that lasts the whole season). Usually to slow music edit that allows them to conserve their energy and lots of time killing doing some spins, poseography until the 10% half way point, before banging out all the jumps out of the way one after another (circa Ando 2011) for the 10% bonus, then settle one wow big step sequence to dazzle the judges hoping they ignore the void in the first half of the program. Add a spin or jump to finish off. Yuna could very well do exactly the same as everyone else doing and make her own life so much easier, but she didn't. She goes for the big epic route, where a mistake would be heavily noticeable given the amount of jam packed choreography with little pause in between. Again difficulties and challenging music structure and amount of choreography movements are not really accounted for under the current COP system based on such elementary methods of marking, so I commend her for it. She is doing so much more than what others doing when she totally doesn't have to, makes nice bonuses when I watch she perform her programs.

    .. oh and I can't believe it is YOU who bring up the sans OTB issue.. :swoon:! I tried to kill it before it happens but then it won't be quite FSU without it. Just like Esta is here in spirit in a fog of cigarette smokes, in her 'white skating boots' no doubt. I wonder if Michelle didn't wear san OTB, would you honestly feel the same way regarding the 'proper' attire you so desire of today's ladies? I also wonder if Michelle wasn't so dominating during her era with her superb signature 'heart on her sleeve' style of emotional projection, have created this common decorum among N.American audiences litmus test for assessing skating performances's 'emotional quotient'. Kweendom scale of value: No misty eyes = boring. Nearly teary eyed = not bad. 1 tear drop = good. 2 tear drops = very good. 3 tear drops = I need kleenex = That is pretty aaaaaamazing... BUT of course you are not Michelle, NO ONE is good as Michelle, somewhat hesitantly and begrudgingly... but yeah still very good!! :shuffle:

    Maybe it is the stoic Brits in me combined with my half Asian sensibilities that consider essences are just as important as form when appraise anything in art or music, but I actually find this sort of quieter performance very appealing and untypical among ladies programs. To not to go for obvious sentimentality but choose to reflected the fortitude and spirit of Les Mis the epic well. One of sincerity, courage, pensiveness, aspire for betterment/excellence can be just as powerfully potent as any chick flick/tearjerker version of which Les Mis can be cheapen into. I am glad the team avoided this pitfall.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  33. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Scene I

    A: “We have honored experts in the panel today.”
    B: “Let me introduce Ms. C, a qualified expert in the field. I respect her opinion. Let’s all listen up.”
    C: “Um.. first, I have degrees in such and such.. oh, did I mention my degree in music too? Blah.. blah.. to sum it up, I’m not impressed with it because, um.. it’s not to my taste and I don’t like it.”

    Repeating non-objective statements over and over, with in between throwing in self-claimed qualification of having a better opinion than others’, sounds like propagandizing to me. Yu-Na lacking musicality in those programs and “juniorish” in performance? Sorry, she lost all credibility there for me. I can see she could do even better, but can’t call that kind of statement a balanced opinion.

    Scene II

    A: “Junior of the Griffey annoys me with that wriggling the bat in the box.”
    B: “That Air-something guy from Jordan needs to learn Dougie. I want to see him play to the audience after a basket-counting fade-away, or a slam dunk, once in a while.”

    I’d say those could be all understandable nitpicking. But with one sweet yet powerful swing at a bat, or with a double-clutched, graceful flight to the basket, it’s loud and clear it’s not really relevant.

    Thanks for the video link! It’s more and more impressive with each new angle.

    ^ I share this.

    BTW, as much as I love Homage, I don’t really want her to bring it back. For a simple reason -- I want to see her new programs each year! It’s in the old page and I can cherish it fine with her performance at worlds.
  34. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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  35. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Yes I am but so what? Are you one? And what makes you qualified to suggest that she had wonderful musicality in that program? Please explain where the musicality was?

    However I think you need to re-read what I wrote. At no time did I suggested that she had poor musicality. I did suggest the music wasn't used as effectively as it could have been but that is not saying she has poor musicality and I have tried to explain what I look for in terms of a skater using the music. But I also suggested that as a new program it takes time for a skater to develop the program in terms of what a skater can bring out in the music. A new program can look juniorish because the skater has not had time to refine it and really find their way through it.

    However obviously there are people who know so much more about these things than I do. So I give up.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  36. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    :rofl:

    I think I'll be joining you - do you have some popcorn left?
  37. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Can I join you? You people are much nicer to be around.
  38. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Ah, the expert is now interested in politicking. :D
  39. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I understand where you are coming from, and the reason given above, but I have developed my thoughts towards performances arts over the years. (I did ballet, Asian folk dancing, salsa, plays 4 instruments as well as able to play from memory/improvise/compose though not professionally but have performed in public) What you have describe may be text book answers prescribed by the current rule/guide book and from years of marking skating competitions no doubt. But I have always felt at world's elite level, the judges have a moral responsibility to see something bigger than then merely an elementary level of understanding compares to say local skating competitions because the work is likely to be more complex and sophisticated, and their decision making can dictate the future direction of this sport.

    I am surprised by the fact you are a judge but don't believe in the intention by the composer, what the music was written about, why it is for matters ' at all' to any interpretations of the music shows an alarming lack of music appreciation and 'entitled' ignorance. So how can one expect a high degree of fair judging, if all the judge care about is only in form but not in essence or meaning? Never mind being culturally sensitive to the reason why they perform the way the skater do, or the music selection, edit and other creative decision making? So no wonder we have so many weird marking in the PCS interpretation marking, when it is based on such an elementary level understanding. What separate judges and general public are supposed to be an informed opinion, otherwise what is the point of having judges.

    If i was to give an honest appraisal on the quality of credible artistry coming out of the COP cookie factory, I'd say most programs consist of something like 5% nutrition 95% artificial colouring and flavourings. According to your reply, you seem to think as long as you satisfy the 'interpretation' parameters noted by the rule/guide book and it taste good and looks good, then who cares.

    ...Except I care. Deeply. I watch figure skating for the precious 5% quality which I hope the system would boost more with encouragement. I crave for quality in sports and arts and wish for it to get more recognised, quantified and rewarded. For those who dares to venture outside the line for doing something unique, special, superb, which are incredibly valuable in arts (e,g T/S's Carmen, Dai's FS performance at Japan Nationals this year) unfortunately never get what they deserve. It kind of upset me. I wish for a system and an empathy to encourage this happening more instead of disparagement going uh-oh didn't fit the rule book / guidelines sorry... the easier skating program wins, because they took advantage of the rules and levels or whatever. Rather than being happy and be satisfied with cookie cutter junk food, I am certainly interested to know what I am eating, if it is quality organic produce, and nutritious, how it grew, where it grew, how they are made and why. Some people may take comfort to seeing art as shapes, colours, techniques, labels and prices; I see art as extension of human potentials - the quality of creative decisions and execution of these ideas/designs which themselves are priceless.

    While I agree that nuances, phrasing, timings are all the bread and butter to deliver musical performance, but I also believe at the highest level of realisation they are not the only ways to convey music intentions in the grander scheme of things. Just like the quality of singing is NOT the most important thing in the film adaptation of Les Mis, as long as the skating performer fulfils the epic concepts they set out to do, the team has fulfilled the design brief. Bear in mind Les Mis music wasn't written for choreography movements and lacks the steady rhythms and tempo unlike her Giselle last year, or Swan lake, or Bolero which were all written for dance which naturally makes the 'reading' and 'performing' of musicality easier. I actually believe level of difficulty in Choreography + Music structure should be accounted properly in PCS in terms of factoring, the fact it isn't is a huge weakness in the current judging system, for it is suppose to encourage 'better' programs, but in reality, it hinders freedom to explore outside the framework, and handicap any skaters like T/S who dares to trying to do too much without rewarding them.

    How for example would you mark a program of let's say John Cage's 4'33? Which I'd love Daisuke or even Patrick do. Are the judges capable of seeing musicality in movement without the music and being entirely objective? Perhaps a more valid question might be whether someone else is capable of perform this choreography better than Yuna? Or how about if she is capable of perform other people's program better?

    ------------

    I do want to add, while I sympathize the judges are there to do an incredibly difficult job, to uphold a certain standards according to the rule/guidelines to reach some sort of peer agreement, but the trouble is when you have a rulebook that determine what is deemed good art, it automatically becomes an exercise of 'design by consensus', therefore kills any chances of 'real' art happening. So no wonder Morozovs rules supreme under such a system. I am amazed nothing has been done on the travesty that is the PCS marking as well, where each of the categories shares the same scale values. Imagine someone decide to mark all the triples the same value without consider the rarity, the effort, and the value of work that goes fully realize some of these categories, it seems absurd.

    I hope you don't find my criticism of the system and some of your views too personally. I am just venting out some frustrations as usual... forgive me.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  40. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    Concerning the emotional distance quite a few posters said they felt about Yuna's new programs ------------and about Michelle Kwan being such a supreme reference in the matter of emotion in figure skating:
    I just want to add my two cents by saying how figure skating is a TV-mediated sport where our experience/ appreciation is more than incidentally depends on camerawork, I invite people here to imagine Kwan's skating without those closeups of her often emotional facial expressions which otherwise are invisible to viewers present at the rink. Just imagine her skating without those long victorious spiral sequences during which the TV screen is filled up with the closeup shots of Kwan's face with a radiant smile and wet eyes (the spiral sq, besides, is now gone), etc, etc. In conclusion, what I want to say is that much of the power that fans attribute to Kwan's skating owes to the particular, established way of filming figure skating (for instance, giving the impression of intimacy with a skater through closeups during the spiral sq and dramatic ending pose, etc.). In other words, please factor in the particular type of camerawork we got from KBS or SBS in your assessment of the emotional quotient of Yuna's skating, and of course, also the effect of the absence of a long spiral sequence, which is a bit like a 'kiss and cry zone' within a program.
    RunnersHigh and (deleted member) like this.
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