Yu-Na Kim's dominance

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Philly2034, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

    51
    6
    0
    quote from Yu-Na Kim forum
    When I read this quote, I was like "Wow!"

    Actually, I went back, and its really 15 out of 21 that she's won gold.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Yuna#Senior_results

    She has NEVER finished lower than 3rd in an event.

    Queen Yu-Na is arguably one of the most dominant female athletes ever.
     
  2. torren

    torren New Member

    132
    7
    0
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    4,891
    585
    113
    You just noticed this?

    Anywho, although I agree that she all but has the 2nd ogm around her neck, as a Kwan fan, I know better than to celebrate early.
     
  4. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    6,567
    276
    83
    Yeah she's so dominant. It's been amazing. She wins or medals in everything and never has not. It's very impressive. She's likely to win another Olympic Gold like its so easy to win one. And it is very interesting how several of her medal winning performances have had horrible parts but one part is usually so good its no problem. SP worlds 2010. LP SA 2009. I think SP worlds 2007 or worlds LP 2008 had big flaws. Can't knock her off the podium for anything!!! Because usually never do flaws carry over from SP to LP or she starts well in the SP. 2009 GPF lost SP to Miki Ando I think.
     
  5. yunasashafan

    yunasashafan Member

    87
    10
    8
    ITA. Ice is slippery so let's please not tempt the skating gods!

    May the best woman on the day win!
     
  6. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    363
    8
    18
    Well her dominance is similar to Witt, but I agree don't tempt the skating gods at the Olympics.
     
  7. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

    7,609
    3,045
    113
    Amen. The cards might not fall the way they're supposed to fall if we tempt the skating gods. :)
     
  8. karlon

    karlon New Member

    163
    12
    0
    More achievements

    -she is a first, and only grand-slammer(Grand prix Final, 4CC, Worlds, Olympics) in the history of women figure skating.
    -She always won the medal in all competitions where she participated, It is a record that only she has in women figure skating
    -She has the world record of SP, FS, overall
    -She broke a world record 11 times
    -she first broke 200 points in the history of women figure skating
    -she always won one of SP or FS in competitions where she participated
    -she made a world record in senior debut world championship
    -After katarina witt, she is a only women Olympic Gold Medalist who challenge to second gold medal. and If She wins 2014 Sochi Olympic, she is a two time olympic gold medalist after sonja henie, katarina witt
    and This women born in country which never had figure skating history.
    In korean figure skating history, she is a first one who won medal in International competition, also She is a only figure skater who is Olympic gold medalist, world champion, and all the other titles
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  9. Keftiu

    Keftiu New Member

    19
    5
    0
    just Wow! :respec:
    She is really phenomenal and dominant queen of the ice, and I think her achievements in this sport will be the history that nobody could get easily.
     
  10. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

    8,513
    1,713
    113
    I agree. Yu-Na Kim is about as much of a lock as McKayla Maroney. :shuffle: (sorry, offhand gymnastics reference :p)
     
  11. karlon

    karlon New Member

    163
    12
    0
    I agree that anything can happen in olympics, Recent women champions at the olympics were almost non-favorite. Even some people think that Olympic Gold Medalist is choosen by skating god. but I think the reason why Many favorites were crushed is massive pressures.

    but yuna was a bit strange. where she first had two clean programs was at the olympics. where she had her best skating was at the olympics. she was choosen by god? :lol: I think, yuna has strong mentality, and she is type of strong skater in big stage, like Yagudin who also had his best skating in olympics. so I think big pressure at the olympics is not much matter for her unlike some top skaters
     
  12. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    411
    76
    28
    I agree with the whole not enumerating your barnyard fowl before nativity thing.

    That being said, as to the other question (Yuna's dominance), I did some quick and dirty research to get some rough sense of perspective.

    In the three most important events of Yuna's career, her margins of victory (%) were the following:

    2009 (Pre-Oly) Worlds: 8.6%
    2010 Olympics: 11.2%
    2013 (Pre-Oly) Worlds: 10.3%

    In a sport where victory or defeat is often measured in fractions of percentage points, the scale of Yuna's dominance is actually pretty astounding, and gives me pause. Despite post-Olympics rules changes that arguably have negatively affected Yuna the most of the Big Three, Yuna has basically brushed those pesky scoring revisions aside like a few stray summer midges. Further, I argue that if her SP had been evaluated in a manner consistent with the final flight, her percentage margin of victory at 2013 Worlds might have actually have been greater than at the Vancouver Olympics.

    By way of contrast, McKayla Maroney's margin of victory in the vault in (thus far) her most important individual win:

    -2011 (Pre-Oly) Worlds: 3.8%

    I don't follow gymnastics hardly at all, but a couple of articles lead me to believe that the margin was only that large because McKayla's biggest rival (Alicia Sacramone) was injured and not competing.

    I understand (I think) the point you are making, that ice is slippery. OTOH, the magnitude of Yuna's dominance in the clutch, as demonstrated above in quantitative fashion, is far, far beyond anything McKayla Maroney has demonstrated up to now. I can't think of a skater in modern history who has been as dominant, as defined by how convincingly opponents were crushed at the event, when the chips are down.

    There are a small number of skaters who have displayed a different kind of dominance, that of longevity, of quantity. Such as Michelle's string of Worlds titles, or Katarina's career record, or further back with names such as Sonja Henie. But in quality of victories, on measurable signs of domination, I would argue that Yuna is at the apex.

    While there is no such thing as a sure bet in sports, that's got to count for something in handicapping the favorites for Sochi, not to mention in assessing Yuna's historical legacy.
     
  13. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    6,567
    276
    83
    It's very true that in the team event nothing indicated that maroney wasn't going to nail her amanars. And the she might have done the best vault of all time in the team event. But Yuna has many advantages which is sp and lp and pcs and jump mistakes that can be covered by successes.
     
  14. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    411
    76
    28
    I'll caveat this, first off, by saying that my knowledge of gymnastics is rudimentary, no two ways about it. :p.

    My observation is primarily driven by the numbers. I will go out on a limb and say that no one in the gymnastics world would expect McKayla to score over 10% higher than a full field of her major rivals, at any time.

    Again, I feel comfortable with that conjecture not because I know anything about gymnastics in particular, but because of the way that performance numbers play out in sports. At the highest levels of athletic competition, a 10-11% performance difference between first and second is a Black Swan anomaly. Yuna and Mao have skated in two cycles, and Caro in three. There are enough data points to rule out chance or coincidence. Whether looking at career-best scores, or scores at the signature events, the storyline is pretty much the same.

    In the 100-meter dash, it would be the difference between Usain Bolt and a kid on the high school team. In golf, a 10% scoring difference over the course of the tournament would mark the gulf between running away with a Major championship in record fashion, and possibly missing the cut. A 10% difference in points won at a Wimbledon final would mean there is a very good chance you got bageled, 6-0, 6-0 (and possibly 6-0 again, if you happened to be on the mens side). The difference between a 95-mph fastball and a multimillion-dollar contract, and throwing a mid-80s pitch in your local weekend beer league, is again 10%.

    A 10-11% margin between the leader and his/her closest rivals is practically unheard of. Tiger Woods, when he mesmerized the world with his dominant play, won the 2000 US Open at Pebble Beach by a massive and record 15 strokes. Yet even that historic achievement, which seemed to end golf as we knew it, only represented about a 5.2% margin over second place.

    This is not to say that Mao and Caro cannot improve in the runup to Sochi and surprise people, or that Yuna cannot make mistakes, or both. Sure, it can happen. But let's be real. When the skaters in question are at the tail-end of lengthy careers, a miraculous reversal of fortunes is something that one can hope for (if one is so inclined), but not something to expect or to bet on. Jenny Kirk was merely stating the truth, IMO, that if Yuna is clean, she's going to be pretty much unbeatable.
     
  15. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

    124
    23
    0
    Isn't there Plushenko at 06Oly, Chan at 11WC, V&T at 13WC? Although not 3 times in BIG competitions like Yuna. (Do you mean this? :))

    Anyway, I agree with berthesghost.

     
  16. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    411
    76
    28
    Nice examples ;). In my feeble defense, I'll only make a few brief comments:

    1) There's a reason that Plushenko is on a very short list of candidates for Greatest Mens Skater of All Time. And while I have some misgivings about WC 2013, I believe that Patrick is perhaps the most outrageously talented mens skater around now.

    2) However, while I know a lot less about Mens skating, my own view is that it is, still, a slightly different game than the Ladies discipline, in this sense: the Mens discipline has evolved in a much more aggressive way technically, such that they could borrow the SAS motto: "Who Dares Wins".

    In other words, because there is so much emphasis on risk, I suspect that there is more variance in results from competition to competition.

    However, if you look at a list of highest-ever scores, it tells a much different story: http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/o100mto.htm

    If one looks at career-best scores, on the principle that the larger sample size takes into account the much greater, risk-driven performance swings in the Mens discipline, we find that the results become, to a great extent, "normalized":

    -Patrick's WR score of 280.98, set at the 2011 WC, is only about 1.5%-2.0% higher than the next highest scores set by Daisuke and Javier, his approximate contemporaries.

    -Evgeni Plushenko's Olympic score was set some years ago, in 2006. What were the next highest scores closer to that time period? Interestingly, these were also set by Daisuke Takahashi. Dai's 2006 NHK score was 247.93, or about -4.2% less than Plushenko's Olympic score. In 2008, however, Dai scored 264.41 at 4CC, about +2.3% higher than Evgeni's Olympic score. They serve to nicely bracket Plushenko's score, implying that the distance between Plushenko and the field was not unbridgeable. (This is not, however, to downplay Plushenko's Olympic achievement. He did it when it counted the most, and no one else matched him)

    Yuna's career-best scores, on the other hand, demonstrate a similar level of separation from the career-high scores of her contemporaries to that found in her margins of victories at the signature championship events (10% or more). On Yuna's side, this is because her career-best scores have come at the most important events. On the other hand, the entire Ladies field has had many years and numerous events to "normalize" the performance differential; it hasn't happened, not even close.

    3) Patrick beat Taka Kozuka in 2011, while Plushenko beat Stephane Lambiel. Both are great skaters, but I would argue that, relatively speaking, they are not quite comparable to Mao and Caro.

    4) I know next to nothing about Pairs, so I will refrain from comment, other than to say it is interesting.

    Numbers often need to be placed in proper context in order to yield their proper lessons. JMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  17. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

    617
    154
    43
    I would be more impressed if she had won more World titles during this period of "dominance". She is, without doubt, the best skater of her era and one of the best ever, but she really did not begin to dominate until 2009 Worlds and later.
     
  18. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    2,037
    459
    83
    I actually agree with this. It seemed to be a combination of injury and crappy luck that kept her away from gold in 2007 and 2008. The 2008-2009 season was the beginning of her real dominance. That was the year the gap she set between herself and everyone else was impossible to close. Prior to that she was very capable of winning but that gap b/w her and Mao was much smaller and it was easier for Mao to catch her. 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 were her big time dominant years. She was almost untouchable (I think she lost the GPF in 2008-2009 to Mao but that was it IIRC). She was gone 2010-2011 but still managed silver at worlds and then she was gone in 2011-2012 before returning last season and winning worlds again.

    Last season Yu-Na's only really test was at worlds; she could have won NRW and nationals by taking a nap in the middle of the ice. I'm really interested to see how she will handle being back in the full swing of competition this season with two GPs and the Final. I'm interested in how she'll do but I'm also interested in how others will skate around her. She definitely raises the level of competition, that's for sure. People know they need to bring their A-game to have a chance. Though I figure most of these skaters know if they're competing against Yu-Na the best they can hope for is silver. I wonder if anyone out there truly believes they can beat her?
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    786
    113
    I think in a sense Kim has been the dominant skater ever since winning World Juniors, although I agree her major dominance was from fall 2008 to 2010 and again now in her comeback. However the 2006-2007 season she beat both Ando and Asada (and Rochette) handily in their long GP meeting, then beat them again easily at the Grand Prix final, then again in the short program at Worlds. Had she still had 2 falls but the 2nd been on a the triple salchow after the 2nd triple lutz rather than the 2nd triple lutz after already falling on the 1st she probably would have gotten the points to win, even with 2 falls. She lost a ton of extra points just because of where her 2nd fall was and the strange COP rules. Then in the 2007-2008 season she was even more dominant up to Worlds, winning all her events and setting new SP and LP WRs, but was injured at Worlds, singled the triple lutz in both programs, and still many thought she was robbed of winning the title that year. Still she felt like the one to beat even then.
     
  20. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

    9,054
    5,610
    113
    This thread makes it so much clearer what a wannabe that Michelle Kwan is.

    :yikes: :scream:
     
  21. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

    4,763
    375
    0
    Now, PeterG....lol
     
  22. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

    98
    14
    0
    Yuna is the most dominant skater of her era, but not totally dominant except for the period from the 2009 4CC to the 2010 Olympics, when she went undefeated the whole stretch and set World records at nearly every competition. She may yet exceed that period, though, if she remains undefeated from NRW Trophy to the Sochi Olympics. So far she's won 3 competitions in a row since her comeback, scoring over 200 points each time.

    Dominance under COP is difficult to compare vs. 6.0. Michelle Kwan in some way was more dominant, having won several more World titles, and yet having lost at the Olympics twice in a row, it's not "total" dominance for her either.
     
  23. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

    9,054
    5,610
    113
    Kwan went to the Olympics three times. Now in baseball....
     
  24. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

    98
    14
    0
    Three times? How so? She went to the 1994 Olympics as an alternate and did not compete. She withdrew from the 2006 games before the actual competition. She only stepped on actual competitive Olympic ice twice--in 1998 and in 2002.
     
  25. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

    7,609
    3,045
    113
    But Michelle still went to the 2006 Olympics and practiced there even though she had to withdraw.
     
  26. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

    98
    14
    0
    True, but she didn't actually compete at those games. That's why I said she lost at the Olympics only "twice in a row".
     
  27. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    363
    8
    18
    Its a little skewed because Kwan competed at 12 worlds vs 6 for Kim. Kwan started her dominance at a slightly earlier age because she had a couple of worlds under her belt where she wasn't favored to medal. Kim was expected to win gold at her first senior worlds in 2007.
     
  28. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

    98
    14
    0
    I'm not so sure about that. Both Mao and Miki were bigger favorites for the World title at the time than Yuna, especially as Worlds was in Japan. It wasn't until she set a record in the Worlds SP that many people thought she might win the title.
     
  29. karlon

    karlon New Member

    163
    12
    0
    I could not find polls in that times in FSU So I found golden skate thread at that time
    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?14313-World-Champions-in-singles-this-year
    Mao got the most votes. yuna second. other women not listed above third.
    Yuna kim and mao asada were favorite at that season, Mao Asada was a bit more favorite than yuna kim
    Kimmie and Miki Ando were the second favorite
     
  30. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    2,128
    90
    48
    Kwan was also not affected by the new age restriction rules which kept Yu-Na (and Mao) out of a few Worlds that she (they) could have attended, IIRC.