Yu Na Kim is great skater but not even in same league as much greater Michelle Kwan

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 10, 2011.

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  1. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    I just looked in the Trash Can for the first time in a month, and saw this thread. I immediately thought "oh god"...proceeded to open it, read, and laugh my ass off. I am now picking up my ass and leaving this thread again. :rofl:
     
  2. amaro

    amaro Active Member

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    Yuna's extension might not be the best in business, but saying she hasn't shown a "good" spiral or layback spin is plain dumb. Extension is just one of many factors that make a spiral or a spin good and she makes it up with other great qualities she offers.

    As for the one who posted it, I wondered when this long-time Kim basher / Maobot (self-claimed) was gonna open up here because it was about time for this troll to show up and poop in the Kim thread. Voilà. This one never disappoints. A true Trash can caretaker. :)

    Admin, time to shut down the thread. I am just saying.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Me a Maobot :rofl: . . . I even disapprove of that term. It is Maoist . . . and I would not even think of mentioning Mao in a Kim and Michelle thread because, well, I would not think of Mao.

    Furthermore, I was talking about her "arabesque position" in her spins and spirals. There is a distinction that you apparently do not know. Of course, that is probably since you are too fixated on Yu Na, being a Yunabot, to learn about skating.

    I can go to anywhere I want at FSU, but I will always think the Trash Can, which I remember as The Skips, is the most fun, particularly in the off season :D

    . . . Of course, some have not been around long enough to know this ;)
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  4. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I agree. You would think MK would be at disadvantage in the line department if you didn't see her skate. But when she's actually skating, everything looks so natural. :)
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Michelle changed her layback starting in 2001 and her new one was excellent. Before that her layback was not so hot. It was pretty much addressing her only ever weakness. She is the closest thing to a perfect skater as you can get.
     
  6. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    With the fear of being considered a Maobot I always wondered why everybody minds Yuna ´s not pointy toe (That i dont mind )but they dont mind that she doesnt stretch completely her free leg at the knee, is it a matter of body built? Maybe i cant explain well, but I always have the impression in her arabesque that her knee is lose.

    Considering the topic i find impossible to compare them, Michelle is sentimentally above anyone for me, but Yuna will be/is also a legend already. Becaus you were talking about long lines of Yuna against Michelle;s short ones, I always liked Michelle type of body because she looked healthy, firm and strong and loved her white boots!
     
  7. invierno

    invierno Member

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    Yuna is actually one of few ladies who actually LAY BACK completely during layback spins. ;) Most of them just kind of lay neck or lean back during the spin.

    Yuna is not so super good at point-toe spin, sure, if there is anything like that.:p

    I won't compare Michelle and Yuna. Different era, different rules, different requirement, different training, thus different skating. No point comparing them.
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Actually, skating is skating.
     
  9. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm sorry but I find it absolutely ridiculous to criticize either Yu-na OR Asada for not winning their first Worlds. Only one skater has managed to do that, and that skater did it with out nearly the expectations.

    I'd point out in 2007, 2008 Yu-na had been struggling with a big injury.

    Yes Yu-na was about 50/50 after that won 2009 worlds/Olympics but didn't win 2010 worlds, 2011 worlds. But I'll say this Michelle didn't win every single world title either. She lost to Tara, Maria etc when Michelle herself was the FAVORITE to win. And then we can get into the Olympics, where Michelle lost twice as a favorite too.

    I'd hardly call Kim erratic. She's never finished off a podium, and she DID pull it together at the Olympics.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yu Na has won only 1 of 5 World competitions. Kwan has won 5 of 11. I would hardly call the ratios close to equivalent. Yu Na has less World titles now than Miki Ando and an underachieving Mao Asada. Do you think in a million years that would have happened to Kwan? Slutskaya for instance is twice the skater Ando is, yet Kwan only allowed her 2 World titles, the same as Ando currently has. Slutskaya in losing to Kwan at the 98, 2000, and 2001 Worlds probably skated well enough to win most of the Worlds in the Yu Na Kim era, certainly easily won the Worlds of this year with her performances any of those years, yet Kim was not able to raise up to the level the same way as Kwan did.

    Actually more than one skater has won their first Worlds. Baiul and Barbara Ann Scott has done it as well, so that makes atleast 2. There are probably been several others at some point. The reason there havent been that many is the previous rules allowed skaters to compete at Worlds as young as 13 or 14 which a teenage phenom probably will make it to Worlds that year, and obviously much less likely to win Worlds at that age then 15 or 16 which is already hard enough. Do you really think if the rules had been such skaters couldnt compete at Worlds until 15 (or 16 like currently) that atleast some, in fact many, of people like Kwan, Henie, Lipinski, Zayak, Fratianne, and others wouldnt still have the Worlds the years they did all at ages 15 or 16. It is possible if you make it the first Worlds for all of those some of them would have been impacted more by the pressure and not done it, but the likelihood is alot of them still would have, creating a much longer list. That doesnt mean winning Worlds that young as a newcomer is easy but it is very doable.

    BTW I would say Michelle's only ever bad loss at Worlds was her loss to Maria Butyrskaya. Losing to Lipinski, Arakawa, Slutskaya, who are all skaters who either won both Olympics or Worlds or in Irinas case was at or near the top for a whole decade long like Michelle, are not exactly bad losses.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  11. bek

    bek Guest

    I think its more than hypocritical to see Michelle's loss at Worlds were okay, but Yu-na's weren't. Yu-na has only lost world titles to Mao Asada, and Miki Ando, both of who are 2 time world champions, and have 3 world medals altogether. Say what you will but thats hardly shabby stuff. In fact in her entire Senior career Kim's only lost to Mao, Miki, Kostner all who have 3 world medals.

    Just because its douable to win your first worlds, doesnt' mean an athlete should be considered a failure for not doing so. Some athletes need to get their feet wet.

    But your not taking into account the Olympics, and that's frankly unfair. Want to argue that its not the be end and end all fine. But to argue that winning an Olympic Title shouldn't be the equivalent AT LEAST of on world title is wrong.

    Add in Worlds Olympics than Kim is 2/6 giving her a .33 rating, and Michelle then is 5/13 giving Michelle a .38 rating. All Kim needs is one more world title (which if she trains hard enough she could do next year, and even you yourself say she should have won in 2008) and Kim eclipses Michelle in ratings wise IF you add in the Olympics. Because Kim will be then at a .42

    Which to be quite frank the Olympics SHOULD count.

    And why shouldn't Grand Prix finals count. Add in Grand Prix final titles, and Kim already eclipses Michelle. I mean Kim is 3/4 when it comes to Grand Prix Final wins. Whereas Michelle is 1 out 5. Add in Grand Prix Finals, and Kim tops Michelle already.
    IF you take into account Worlds, Olympics, and Grand Prix Finals than Yu-na Kim is at a 5/10 rating giving her a .50 rating wheres, Michelle ends up 6/18=.33
    Your basically IMO building a strawmans argument when you only add in results that favor your skater with out taking into account other results.
    And as mentioned earlier Yu-na's career isn't even done yet. She could still win another world title.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Losing a World title to someone like Miki Ando isnt good for a skater of Kim's stature, let alone doing it twice. Most would probably agree Ando is closer to being bracketed as a skater of Butyrskaya's ability then one of Slutskaya, Arakawa, or peak Lipinski's. Pointing out that Miki Ando became a 2 time World Champion during the Yu Na Kim era is also hardly a ringing endorsement for Kim you would want to emphasize much. And one of them she did by falling twice and doing an extra combo, the other she did with just really weak performances. Losing to Asada isnt neccessarily bad, but the year Asada won was a year Kostner was a fraction point from winning with 5 mistakes so one must look at it from that context. And the 2010 Worlds was bad just because of how she skated in the short program, and given that she won the long program even with a still (for her) sluggish performance over Mao's outstanding perforamnce showing it was clearly hers to win if she didnt miss 3 or 4 elements in the short program.

    The only Worlds Kwan really botched up was 1999. In 2002 a small mistake in the short program cost her the title due to the silly qualifying round (or maybe the judges still would have gone with a clean Slutskaya over her, that isnt her fault though). In 1997 it was the exact same thing, despite a beautiful long program which won that phase over spectacular performances by Slutskaya and Lipinski both if you recall. In 2004 it was a combination of alot of little things, timing deduction in the short program, some excelllent short programs from her competitors especialy Cohen, an amazing long program from Arakawa, but the only program she botched was her Q round program which was only worth 20% and easily recoverable. She did a beautiful short and long program at those 2004 Worlds despite through a variety of factors finishing 3rd overall, in no way comparable to the mistaken ridden dissapointments that were Kim's 2007 Worlds LP, Kim's 2008 Worlds SP and LP, Kim's 2010 Worlds SP or LP, or Kim's 2011 Worlds SP or LP. OK 2005 she sort of blew as well, but she she was in the twilight of her career on a busted hip by then.

    Who said anything about failure. I only said it isnt an excuse that Kwan is more dominant by far in World competition than Kim, despite the much tougher rivals she had.

    I agree the Olympics should be worth atleast 1 World title, probably more. It isnt close to the equivalent of 4 World titles though.

    Kim couldnt even win Worlds in a year that had the weakest winning performance since the 80s and has already stated she isnt doing the grand prix next season which shows she didnt learn anything from this years debacle. Good luck to her winning another Worlds in the future if she is apparently satsified with the kind of skating she showed at Worlds this year (boy will she ever need it if that is the case).

    LOL so if you value Grand Prix finals that highly you must think Slutskaya is equal to Michelle too. After all she won 4 of them to Kwan's 1, which negates Kwan's World titles or medals edge. Yet if you said that to someone people would think you were crazy. I might be misreading you but you seem to be implying the Grand Prix final is on par with Worlds. The Grand Prix final is even further behind Worlds in value than Worlds is the Olympics. In anycase 4 extra Worlds > 1 Olympics + 2 extra Grand Prix finals. Kwan didnt even care that much about the Grand Prix, she chose to skip altogether in 1999, 2003, 2004, and 2005, and rarely seemed that into it. Of course she has alot of pride in what she does and still won many regular grand prixs, and never placed lower than 2nd at the final, but it wasnt a huge priority for her on par with Worlds or even Nationals either.

    Or maybe you meant just the ratio aspect. Well in that case you cant put the Grand Prix final on par with the pressure or importance of the Olympics or Worlds. Well you can if you want but I would strongly disagree in that case.

    I never said Olympics dont. It has already been acknowledged that via Vancouver alone Kim has the Olympic edge, and I dont think I needed to repeat that when I have already said numerous times earlier this thread. However I am pointing out that Kwan's enormous World edge still outweighs one Olympics at this point. If you think the Olympics along with a couple extra GPFs outweight 4 extra World titles and all those U.S titles for Kwan in an era of incredible depth in the U.S (yes Kim didnt get to compete at Nationals but winning 9 Nationals in 10 years in that era of U.S depth is also far beyond winning only 1 of 5 Worlds in Kim's era ) then you would be making the Olympics out to be some larger than life thing beyond realism.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Your constant harping on skaters losing really says a lot more about you than it does about the skaters themselves.
     
  14. bek

    bek Guest

    Kim only competed in 4 world competitions though. Michelle only did worlds back to back twice. To expect Kim to win 4 straight world titles and then claim she's a faliure in comparision to Michelle is ridiculous.

    So once again what you take into account is RATIOS. And Olympics can get added into the ratio easily with Worlds. Once you add in the ratios, Kim and Michelle become much closer. I mean obviously longevity matters too. But Kim has an impressive record period.

    Your missing the point no I don't think Grand Prix Finals is as important as Worlds, but its still fairly important. In fact I think its more important impressive than US Nationals wins. Kim's 3/4 GPF IS impressive. So is Irina's and they count. lets say give them half the importance and given once you add In Olympics the ratio between Kim/Kwan is smaller. I expect we get at a tie.

    Also by saying Kim is a failure in comparision to Michelle your not taking into account things like Kim WAS heavily injured at 2007/2008 worlds. Girl dropped out of two really important competitions in the lead way and those who saw Kim at both competitions said she clearly ran out of steam due to lack of training because of said injuries. And one could point out that Worlds after the Olympics IS a letdown. So Olympics worlds win isn't the same as other World titles.

    If Kim had been from a stronger country, she might not have shown up to either 2007/2008 or 2010 worlds (heck maybe even 2011 worlds) But Kim's country needed her to skate to win spots.

    Once again to call Kim a failure or to criticize her abilities as a competitor, after the way that girl handled the Olympic pressure is just ridiculous for me. I agree she's not the same skater as before, and I agree she needs to get it together. But I suspect the problems right now are motivation issues, and not because Kim is in capable of delivering under pressure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  15. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    But Michelle's injuries also held her back from winning. Her foot injury was what put her at a disadvantage against Tara in 1998 because she had to take out her 3T-3T. I don't agree with everything Judy says but I do think she has a point about MK having more competition. This should be taken into account if we're evaluating on who is a better competitor overall.
     
  16. bek

    bek Guest

    If Michelle had skated like she skated at US Nationals, she probably would have won. So I don't think her injury alone can be blamed. It was the same injury, both girls landed the SAME technical content that they did the difference was in the way they skated (the speed etc). Michelle was extremely slow in Nagano, I heard people saying they wanted to push her.

    That wasn't an issue of training, or an issue of the injury. Now if Michelle had skated like she did at nationals, and lost we could then talk.

    In contrast Kim was injured to the point where she went out and hit her big tricks and lost steam at the end of the program. And made major errors. I don't think its the same thing.
     
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Actually she competed in 5.

    She still did it. It obviously isnt easy to do, otherwise Kim would have done it as well, no. :shuffle:

    LOL where did I use the words failure. I love the overdramatization of some people and then pinning it on me. I said IMO her record while great does not come close to stacking up to Kwan's, no shame in that as almost nobody in history does. I dont think she should be in consideration with someone like Kwan for the greatest skater ever, as some seem to think she was after the Olympics last year is my only piont.

    Fair enough. Still a ratio over 10 years is alot harder to mantain than a ratio over 4. Kwan could have just retired after 2001 or after 2003 when her hip began going out bigtime and improved her ratio further after all, but she soldiered on, already limited in what she could do vs her physical healthy prime (you harp on Kim's injuries yet seem to completely ignore that Kwan battled a damaged hip for atleast a third of hers).

    In a big way as explained above.

    Nobody said otherwise.

    In the era of dominance of U.S women U.S Nationals was an extremely prestigious event in practical terms. I would say about on par with the Grand Prix final, Europeans, or Four Continents now that Four Continents is getting stronger fields attending. It is less so now for obvious reasons. Ultimately though most people will only really remember the Worlds or Olympics many years from now. For diehard skating fans who follow the sport today it is fun to view and consider the results of all these other events, but it is pretty hard to imagine they will be remembered much many years from now.

    And this is where I get to what I mentioned earlier. Kwan had a badly deteriorating hip herself for the final 4 years of her career. How much more would she have won otherwise. You could easily make this argument for her.
    And was the injury the reason Kim missed a triple lutz 4 times total at those 2 Worlds, when she hit every other jump she tried. It seemed more like a mental lapse to me, and that is what Dick Button said in the booth as well, but anyhow.

    While I partially see your point this attitude isnt fair to the skaters who do win Worlds after and Olympics IMO. If that is the mindset they might as well cancel Worlds in an Olympic year (which I think might be an idea to consider anyway, although not sure if it would be the right one).

    Well in this case or hypothetical you know full well a skater who only competed at Worlds once (even if they won a Worlds and Olympics), while a great skater, wouldnt be at all considered with the Kwan legends of skating anyway. Think Oksana Baiul, Tara Lipinski, Shizuka Arakawa, just saying. :shuffle: She would then become a what if case, how much greater could she have become if she were healthy enough to compete in more than 1 Worlds and didnt lose all motivation to compete seriously after Vancouver (which actually happened), just like how much greater would Baiul and Lipinski have been if they continued, and similar what ifs you could present for many other skaters, but it doesnt make any of them someone of Kwan's rarified stature.


    It is all relative. Of course she delivers under pressure better than most. Just not as much as someone like Michelle Kwan or Katarina Witt for instance. Nor even as much as someone like Miki Ando who despite being nowhere near as talented a skater as Kim has already tied her in combined World/Olympic titles so IMO deserves credit for being the stronger competitor of the two and the best competitor of this era (even though not pure best skater).
     
  18. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Michelle wasn't extremely slow. She did gave a cautious performance but the speed factor is exaggerated.

    Well, it's not like she doesn't tend to make major mistakes even when she's healthy. (2008 GPF, 2010 Worlds) It's interesting that there are so many explanations given for Kim's losses when some of the same factors could be applied to other skaters' losses. *shrugs*
     
  19. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    :lol: at all the Maobots coming out finally and popping up in this thread. I sympathize that your favorite skater is in an awful state and probably finished for good, but I don't think dragging in Michelle Kwan to bash Kim is going to work.

    Kwan and Kim are 2 of my all time favorite post-school figures era ladies, and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way. Moreover, these 2 ladies have enormous admiration mutually, and have been very supportive of each other. No matter what kind of crooked tricks you may pull in trying to pin these ladies against each other, people who adore both Michelle and Yuna like me won't buy it.
     
  20. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm not excusing Kim's loss at this years worlds or the Worlds as anything but do to her own lack of motivation.
     
  21. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    :lol: at this one trying to drag in Karen, as If Michelle isn't enough.

    Having :rofl:ed, what are your definitions of looking natural in sprials and spins? If you are talking about the free leg, first one you should criticize is Davis & White, who has to have the worst positions in history and still won the gold in ice dancing which is a discipline where free legs actually matters.

    Please stop watching videos of Dick Button commentary of the past and face the reality. Free leg positions in ladies single skating just doesn't matter that much. I can't remember a single lady who won in Olys or Worlds past couple of decades who cared much about toe-point.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  22. IceJunkie

    IceJunkie Well-Known Member

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    Which is incredibly unfortunate.

    Yu-na is a brilliant skater, and I've always felt it was a shame that her arabesque positions weren't as top-notch as they could be. She has improved a lot in that department, though, especially since 2007 or 2008.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Dick Button is figure skating. Probably the greatest skater ever considering how advanced he was for his time, the most influential commentator ever, the man who basically made pro skating, a successful law school graduate, a very successful actor, talk about someone who has owned it from every avenue. Whatever he says probably has some merit, even if you disagree with it. He is genius.
     
  24. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Dick Button was an actor? :eek: What on earth was he in? Did he do porn or something? I've never heard of him acting. Are you sure you're not confusing him with Richard Burton? Their names are awfully similar.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    This is from encyclopedia:

     
  26. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Actually, I prefer to see better toe-points and free leg position from skaters as well. But the fact is that judging system does not encourage it and hence lack of such should not be used to denouce certain skaters who are doing their best to win competitions within the system.

    Like you said, Yuna Kim has been improving her extensions since she debuted in senior competitions. Progress may have been gradual, but it makes sense since there is no point in sacrificing other aspects of her skating for something that does not get rewarded enough.
     
  27. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    No where did I say Dick Button wasn't prominent. ;) I'm saying that he had an uncanny preference for flexibility vis-a-vie other commentators and the international judging panel.

    I also want to add that even with his strong preferences, he didn't go out of his way regarding outcomes of competitions or evaluating a skater's career. Button praised Lu Chen's 1996 Worlds FD as "one of the best performances he had ever seen" despite Chen's lack of toe-point. Likewise, Button never said Sasha Cohen deserved to win notwithstanding her falls and two-footed landings.

    I wish the same could be said about some posters here who cling on desperately to toe-point in order to denounce a certain skater.
     
  28. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    And miki88 is here like in every Yuna thread and every skating forum!!!!!!!! Obsessed much?!? :lol: What a big surprise! :rofl:

    I'm :eek: at this thread is still alive. :lol:
     
  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Oh how little you know.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=eDLVM-Hjzwc
     
  30. lakewood

    lakewood New Member

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    I want to point out that 4 of Kwan's 5 wins were in North America. She certainly had big advantage in that era of high politics. If she had competed with Lu Chen in China back in 1996, could she have won? Actualy, Kwan won 1/7 outside NA.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
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