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Yu Na Kim is great skater but not even in same league as much greater Michelle Kwan

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 10, 2011.

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  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    For me the best skater ever is between 3 women:

    Janet Lynn- best artistic skater ever
    Michelle Kwan- best combined technical/artistic skater ever
    Midori Ito- best technical skater ever

    Since Kwan is by far the more accomplished than the other two who didnt fulfill close to their potential medal wise due to a variety of factors it has to be her though. None of the 3 greatest ladies skaters of all time even has an Olympic Gold which is evidence of how overrated the Olympic Gold on its own is.
     
  2. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

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    Yuna might be not as great as Kwan.

    But 'I' think Yuna is in her own unique league.
    If a future skater from weak federation and inferior infra(such as cold rinks causing injuries) accomplishes as Yuna,
    I finally will put the Singaporean or Argentine etc. skater in the same league with Yuna, sending her/him my deep admiration. :)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

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    I wasn't comparing it to the Olympics or any other events. I was saying the event in itself was not as bad as what people make it out to be. And from a judging point of view there was actually lot of good quality, particularly in components. And I could really appreciate Kim's performance because even though she wasn't on song, I still think she is an excellent skater and apart from a couple of mistakes, she can demonstrate why she is a medal worthy contender.
     
  4. lakewood

    lakewood Active Member

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    You are not consistent in your logic. You criticize YuNa for being only one time World Champion, but Janet was never a World Champion and Ito was only one time World Champion and no OGM. You think OGM is overrated but then WGM is certainly overrated, too.

    For me, YuNa is the best combined technical/artistic skater ever. I think she is at least as good as Midori technically. 3A does not represent all skating techniques.

    For the skating world, YuNa will be remembered by her Roxanne, Danse Macabre, Bond, Gershwin performances. She widened the horizon of figure skating. Was there her Danse-Macabre-like performances before YuNa? Artistry is the matter of apple or orange, and YuNa put a new delicious fruit on the plate.
     
  5. Made4Dancin

    Made4Dancin New Member

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    As a fan of figure skating who doesn't skate and doesn't understand all the technical aspects of the sport, I don't get the whole Yuna thing. She just seems like she's posing all the time. Watching figure skating mainly for entertainment, I don't think what she does and what Michelle Kwan did is even remotely the same thing. Just watch her ATS shows from last year. Michelle barely did anything and still wiped the floor with her. Apples and oranges. One's a world class entertainer, the other an OGM. How you view them probably says more about you as a figure skating fan than it does about either of them.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The impact of Ito and Lynn transcends their medals. This is not the case with Yu Na Kim as she never took the technical nor artistic side of skating to a whole new level it had never seen before. Plus they competed in the era of compulsory figures, which brings a whole different spin on the results compared to the free skating only era. Both would have dominated for years without the figures.

    You think a skater who cant even do each of the 5 standard ladies triples, who has skated 2 clean long programs in the last 5 years, and who doesnt have great spins or amazing footwork, is as good or better than Ito technically? :lol: To each their own I guess.
     
  7. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Have you seen Midori's jumps? All of her jumps were huge with great distance plus she had 6 different triple jumps. She had so many clean 7 triple programs. Her spins weren't that bad either. She also had one of the best flying sit spins in ladies skating. I do think Yuna is fast but so was Midori!! Midori had good footwork as well. I haven't seen anyone even come close to Midori technically.
    I truly think she could have had the quad toe if she didn't break her leg practicing the jump and stop practicing on it. That was when she was still in high school and she wasn't even putting 3 axel in her programs yet.
     
  8. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    At least Yuna had her back to back clean programs with 3-3 under her arsenal at the Olympics with 50+ million people she carried and won gold at that. Not too shabby. :lol:
     
  9. lakewood

    lakewood Active Member

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    Jumping ability is not a technique. Technique is what you get by learning and practice. Midori was probably the greatest jumper in history, but was she the greatest technician ever? I don't think so.
    Anyway, as far as toe jumps are concerned, YuNa has no less jumping ability than Midori, I think and her 3-3 is better than Midori's. YuNa is very good at almost all elements. Her technical brilliance is well showed in her Gershwin performance in Vancouver. What a technical brilliance it was!
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2011
  10. a56

    a56 New Member

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    There's really no consistency in judgejudy's opinions. If I remember correctly, judgejudy trashed the Zhangs for having no artistic skills/being dull years ago. However, just a few months ago, she posted a thread expressing lament that the Zhangs would never be World Champions. Now, she's trashing and mocking Kim when a year before, she was oozing with praise for Kim. Judgejudy places so much value on medals, and then considers skaters with less medals and no Olympic gold as being greater than Kim.
     
  11. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    What a rubbish thead this is. Someone please do me a favor and close it.
     
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Liza, Julia, Elena, Evgenia, Russian pairs

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    I am not sure I agree with the OP. I think Michelle is perhaps the most complete skater of our era, and the most consistent, based on her 5 world titles. I think it's too early to say Yu na is not as great as Michelle. True, she has not won a lot of world titles, but she does have one and has an OGM too. I am not overemphasizing the OGM, but Yu na's OGM could be considered equivalent of a world title. Of course she has a long way to go before she can catch up with Michelle in the number of world championships, and she may never catch up. Still, I think she is a great skater of the COP era, while Michelle was a great skater of the 6.0 era. Right now it does look like Michelle was a more consistent competitor, but Yu na may not be done yet.
     
  13. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    It is of course completely nonsense to compare skaters that are so well-accomplished and decide which one is "better".

    If you focus on the Olympic Gold, the true lutz, the fantastic 3lutz-3toe and the spins Yu-Na will "win". If you focus on the skating skills, the jump consistency over many years and the 5 world titles Michelle woud "win".

    It really depends on how you weigh these accomplishments and skills. This, however, says less about the skaters evaluated but more about the agenda of the one doing the evaluation.

    As for Yu-Na's supposedly 'atrocious' performance at World's: she would surely have beaten Laura at '10 worlds for a medal with that performance and maybe even herself at '10 worlds.
     
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 #teamtrainwreck

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    I agree with this. She made more mistakes at last year's worlds than this year's and Laura's FS was like all doubles...
     
  15. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you are saying but let's put it this way. When Midori won the world title in 1989, many men were only doing the triple axel as the most difficult jump. I think there were only few landed the quad toe at the time. Like Scott Hamilton said "Midori could be competitive with men" says all. Yuna, on the other hand, wouldn't be competitive with men. She has no quad nor 3axel nor 3loop... What makes you think Midori didn't have good jumping technique? Do you even know what you are talking about?
     
  16. miki88

    miki88 Active Member

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    Midori had an unconventional jumping technique (leg wrap) but her natural jumping ability was just so incredible that it didn't seem to hinder her at all. Natural ability and having good technique are two different things. There have been skaters who were taught great technique yet still end up to be very inconsistent jumpers.
     
  17. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I would consider Chen Lu to be very close to this. She didn't win the OGM, but has two bronze medals, and you could make a case that she deserved better in 1994.
     
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa #Beckywiththebadgrades

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    Didn't some FSUers do a breakdown of Yuna's Olympics scores and after changing the way the PCS scores are counted find that she would have been very competitive with the men? Of course, Yuna hasn't consistently shown that she could skate at the level she did in Vancouver.
     
  19. duane

    duane New Member

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    Hell to the yeah!!

    Not only an artistic LP, but IMO the most technically difficult, and THE best jump technique (with the delayed rotation) ever! And, if that cameraman hadn't been so close to the rink, she wouldn't have bumped into him in the SP!

    (Uh, needless to say, I am a HUGE Chen Lu fan. ;) )
     
  20. Excidra

    Excidra Well-Known Member

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    Asada dominating? When? Where? Slutskaya lost 2005 GPF to Asada because she fell on a jump in her SP and turned in a lackluster FS, otherwise, Slutskaya would've won had she repeated her Cup of Russia performance of that year. Slutskaya took cup of China victory in 2004 and Asada was competing in that competition.

    Asada is a good skater, but i've noticed that you give her more credit than she deserves.
     
  21. miki88

    miki88 Active Member

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    She'd at be a co-favorite at least if she were allowed to go to the Olys back in 2006. Irina repeated another pair of lackluster performances at the Olympics and was beated by Shizuka who lost to Mao in all of their previous matchups. So Mao definitely held her own against the veterans that year.
     
  22. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Re: 05/06 GPF-- Irina did not fall on a jump, she doubled her flip in the sp and if you consider landing and rotating 6 clean triples 'lackluster' I don't know what to say...

    It amazes me in the days of youtube and online protocol sheets that people are so quick to post things without double-checking...and then to tell someone ELSE they are giving undue credit? Oh, the irony.
     
  23. bek

    bek Guest

    Wow. First of all I want to point out that I think its very unfair to compare Michelle/Kim because both skated in very different eras. Michelle didn't have to do the difficult spins/or worry about tiring level 3 footwork. Its a lot easier to skate clean when spins can be as Alexei Yagudin said "rest time."

    I actually think Yu-na is a better spinner than Michelle (who I never thought was great spinner). And I wouldn't say Kwan is better at footwork. I think Kim is quite good at footwork, not as good as Asada is but good.

    And as for Kim's lack of a 3loop fine, but I have to point out that Yu-na more than makes up for it with the fact that Kim regularly did way harder combos than Michelle ever did.

    I actually think its very unfair to say that Kim didn't push this sport technically when Kim regularly did 3lutz/3toes, 3flip/3toes and double axel/3toes. Those are difficult combinations, and she may have the best 3/3 track record of any lady ever- in doing them consistently. I think because Kim had to compete against Asada, and was so consistent at the 3/3s that people don't appreciate Kim for what she did technically-but technically Kim absolutely pushed this sport. Do you really think Mao would have pushed that 3axel/2toe at the Olympics if it weren't for Kim's 3/3s. I'm not so sure.
    And the thing is too Yu-na could have easily dumped those 3/3s and still won but she always took that risk every time-and she deserves HUGE credit for that. That wasn't something Michelle did. Michelle would practice 3/3s but never use them.
    And also take into account how difficult it had to have been for Kim and Chen Lu to come from a country with no figure skating background. Both girls had it way harder in that regard than Kwan did. And both Kim, Chen, Midori did a lot for skating in their particular countries-that may be immeasurable.

    And frankly I find it amazing that Kim managed to go clean-at the Olympics. Given the ridiculous amounts of pressure she was clearly under.

    And its not like every single one of Michelle's world titles came with the performance of a lifetime.

    Well a part of me thinks Yu-na should retire. But its not because I think Yu-na is incapable of being competitive in this sport. But because Yu-na seems so freaking unhappy. The facts are that her heart clearly wasn't into it at last year's worlds. And this years worlds its the same thing.

    Is Yu-na talented enough to continue winning World titles and maybe even defending her Olympic Gold in Sochi (although there are some talented young kids coming up). Absolutely! But the thing is Yu-na is going to have to really want it and work for it. Maybe right now Yu-na just wants to take it easy, for a year or two. But I'm just not so sure if she wants it.

    The thing is that there is life after skating, and maybe Yu-na is absolutely ready to move on to the next stage of her life. She has said she wants to go to college, maybe she wants to date, do Korean movies, travel. Experience life a little bit outside of the demands of an elite career. Yes one can say how many years does Yu-na have left to really skate, but really then again if Yu-na wants kids/family, how many years will she have left to be footloose and fancy free, too?

    As far as I'm concerned its up to Kim, but if she's unhappy skating competitively than I think she should move on.

    And Judy we have no idea what Michelle would do if she actually won. I remember Michelle talking about how much she wanted to go to Harvard back then.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2011
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  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont consider this a tougher era in anyway though. An era that enables Ando to win 2 World titles is not a stellar era. :lol: For instance in the Kwan era someone like Slutskaya only was able to win 2 World titles and she is twice the skater Ando. Kwan in her career faced Lipinski, Slutskaya, Chen, Cohen, and the very consistent Hughes. Kim faces almost nothing, just an erratic and mostly underachieving Asada (who as I said IMO peaked in 2006-2007 especialy) and Miki Ando, neither of whom are of the caliber of Lipinski or Slutskaya especialy. And a skater like Rochette who was a journeywomen almost her whole career, and the beautiful and talented Kostner who unfortunately cant do a clean long program ever (people get giddy with excitement for her when she does one with only two mistakes), can win multiple major medals too. Remember Kostner won World silver and a fraction of point from gold in 2008 despite making FIVE visible mistakes in her long program. Those arent typical elite medal contending skaters, even someone like Butyrskaya, an outsider and surprise 1 time World winner of the Kwan era, could atleast do clean competitions sometimes. Yet despite the much stronger field Kwan manages 5 World titles vs Kim's 1 World title and Olympic Gold.

    Michelle always did very difficult spins, footwork, and spirals. Maybe they werent geared to the exact rules of COP, many of which are silly anyway, but she definitely did not do easy non jump elements.

    I agree Michelle is not a "great" spinner, but Yu Na is not considered a great spinner either. I dont agree Yu Na is better, but you are entitled your opinon.

    I agree Kim is very good at footwork, but Kwan I feel had outstanding footwork.

    If Kim was regularly doing clean programs without the triple loop I would see your point, but Kim almost never can even do a clean 6 triple program without the triple loop. Kwan many times over did clean 7 triple programs with all triples, and often a triple toe-triple toe (the easiest triple-triple but still something).

    Fair enough.

    She would not have known she didnt need the 3-3s to win in Vancouver. If Asada had skated cleanly with her triple axels then Kim would have needed her 3-3s to win. And in an era many women were doing 3-3s, atleast back when Ando, Kostner, and Asada were all in their primes as well, doing them or not wasnt really an option.

    She often did the triple toe-triple toe like I said. And Kwan with 7 triples and a triple toe-triple toe was unbeatable so why bother to do more than that.

    Fair enough.

    Agree. Kim definitely trumped Kwan at the Olympics, even if nowhere else. Although Kwan skated beautifully and cleanly at the 98 Olympics inspite of losing.

    Pretty much everyone. 96, 2000, 2001, 2003, Kwan skaed lights out to win each of those Worlds, and except for 2003 pretty much had to as well. Other than Ando at the 07 Worlds and Kim at the 2010 Olympics nobody skates lights out to win titles in this era, I have never seen so many faulty and sometimes rather ordinary performances win major titles. The last 2 Worlds practically set womens skating back 30 years.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2011
  25. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be fair, Asada did skate "clean" last year and, downgrades aside, stood up on three pretty decent looking triple axels. I was never a fan of her programs, but it's not as if she didn't deliver.

    But, I have to say, it is REALLY disappointing to see a skater like Miki who was capable of quads and the best 3z/3r in history win worlds with 5 triples, no triple flip or triple toe, and no 3/3. If anything has been setting ladies skating back, it's CoP.
     
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  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Asada was great at Worlds last year. However the rest of the event other than Nagasu's SP was really weak. Lepisto's bronze winning performance was definitely an 80s type performance.

    And for this year well you summed it up in a nutshell. COP is badly flawed when it allows a jumper to score huge points when she doesnt even do her big jumps, mostly through overrated things like backloading, etc...
     
  27. amaro

    amaro Active Member

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    Yuna and Michelle are two of the greatest ladies skaters. Isn't that enough? I get that it is a trash can thing and it is now the boring off-season time, but still, why ruin it by making a silly titled thread like this?
     
  28. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Midori used to do combinations with a double and a triple in them, but the one I remember the most was double loop triple loop. Lets see any of the ladies try that these days. On topic though, what a silly subject to try and compare anyone pre c.o.p. to post.
     
  29. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    Ok I got it. This thread was created to bash Miki Ando.
     
  30. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    Miki did do a 3toe in LP.
     
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