Yu-Na, Carolina & Mao: A Comparison

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    I agree.
    Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NPVEozgJSGw (2009 TEB Mao & Yuna)
  2. sonya71

    sonya71 New Member

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    Yuna's edges were better at Vancouver, though Mao’s edges are getting there, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln6Y2ppJiaw (a comparion of Bells and Swan Lake)

    But I still think that the score at Torino Worlds was out of line.
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I prefer Mao's spins, lines, and footwork. However, in Vancouver, it was quite obvious that Yuna's speed and depth of edge were superior to Mao. Just compare their spiral sequences. Mao's look way better, but Yu Na's coverage of the ice is far superior. Mao lost a lot of speed.
  4. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I agree. Yuna used to have better skating skills than Mao, but not any more. Mao came to Nobuo Sato to improve her jumps, but he made her work on her basic skating first and the difference is very noticeable I think. Yuna, on the other hand, remained on her previous level at best so they are much closer in that aspect now than in 2009.
  5. skatingfanfun

    skatingfanfun New Member

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    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EEXMSs7t4-8

    This is how I like it.

    The difference between figure skating fan and a certain skater's über fan:)

    So come to the topic, for the three incredible young ladies, I think Yuna has the total package, Mao is the most elegant and has the best spiral and spin positions and the most exciting/best step sequences, and I like Caro's ability to gain speed with almost no crossovers, especially in her LP this year. I think Mao's advantage in steps is that she has good control, fast , clean and smooth changes of edges and directions. Yuna and Caro's s jumps are more powerful. Mao's jumps were very light and effortless, she's gradually getting there now.

    All have the ability to challenge but I believe it will be still mainly between Yuna and Mao, my two favorite skaters.

    Mao's skating skills improved greatly after 2010 and is now on par with Yuna. I'm over the coach splitting/firing chaos now and I can enjoy Yuna's skating again.

    I believe Yuna is Mao's best motivator. look at what Mao did at 4CC, and I'm so excited going to World.

    I have never had the honor to watch all the ladies live together and I will really cherish this opportunity and see with my own eyes how they play off live vs on TV.

    Good luck everybody !
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  6. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with Yuna having the entire package.. doesn't the entire package include nice looking positions?
  7. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    The oft-repeated statement that Yuna is the "complete package" is, IMO, correct.

    -When a Michelle Kwan or a Peggy Fleming evince such a view, it generally means that the skater has the skills to score highly in all the major elements and components being judged. Their opinions therefore include the (quite factual) premise that Yuna's spirals/spins/positions will score well. People like Michelle and Peggy assume as a matter of course that it is understood that skating is first and foremost a competitive pursuit, and that therefore notions such as "complete package" make communally verifiable sense only in this context.

    -AFAIK, there is no explicit bullet point for "nice looking" (or even an official definition).

    -To say (as Michelle and Peggy, and many others, have done) that Yuna is the complete package is not necessarily to say that she is perfect. It is merely stating what should be obvious: Yuna has no glaring weaknesses from an objective, competitive perspective, despite offending the personal table of values of some of her critics.
  8. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Is a spiral not meant to be done with a straight leg?
  9. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    How much is a "straight" leg worth? In other words, if the presence/absence of the feature does not materially affect the skater's prospects for competitive success, then equally it does not materially determine whether or not she is the "complete package".

    When one goes too much beyond what the rules reward/punish in terms of what one chooses to emphasize or hold dear, it enters the realm of the deeply personal. An extreme example to illustrate the point: I might say that a spin is not a spin unless the skater does it with a cup of hot tea balanced on her head. If this feature were considered fundamental to the sport, then it would be meaningfully incorporated into the scoring criteria. It if has, ah, minimal impact, then I am forced to conclude that a skater is not disqualified as a "complete package" without it.
  10. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    Very logic and precise points, Robeye.
    Yet, I think AndyWharol should have phrased differently, like: "Yuna has no classic/balletic positions", rather than "no nice looking positions". How can you say that her Ina bauer, for instance, is ugly? Actually you can take any of the photos taken from her performances and appreciate the shapes of her body so in tune with the artistic content of the music . Of course some don’t like them, but there are lot of people who finds them wonderful, so it’s hard to state "She has ugly positions" as a fact, unless you add "to me". It’s like saying "Beethoven’s Fifth symphony is ugly, because I don’t like it" (for the record, I don’t like it :D ). Beethoven is considered one of the best composers ever and it’s undeniable that his music has at least an objective value/quality, even if some don’t love it. The same can be applied to Yu-Na’s skating, I think.
    os168 and (deleted member) like this.
  11. martyross

    martyross New Member

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    This statement makes me a little curious. Because I wouldn’t say that before 2010 Mao Asada’s skills were not good. Take her programs from 2008 Worlds for instance. They show a tremendous amount of skill. Maybe the point is that after 2008 Worlds the emphasis was put so much on Mao’s jumping ability that the skating skills received less attention. Maybe the program that fans generally refers to is the Olympic FS, which didn’t look very convincing as a general impression although was executed with some expression. There wasn’t much speed, deep edges, flow, complexity, etc. But good skating skills were already there before 2010.
    Now a more personal opinion that will probably sound weird, especially to those who love the Swan Lake program. We all know that after 2010 her skating suffered in some respects, but right now I actually don’t see all the great progress that is often mentioned. There might have been a progress, of course, but not that dramatic. If we want to make a comparison with Yu-Na, as skatingfanfun did, I still think the latter has more speed and edges and shows a steadiness and confidence that Mao still lacks. Probably this Swan Lake will look better at Worlds, although I have some doubts giving that Mao is back in training difficult jumps at full engine, in the clear and anxious convinction that it's the only way to surpass her rival, so we might see a repetition of the Olympics, only this time her program will look much prettier and attractive.
  12. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    A more pressing question for me is: What about the lack of centering on some of Kostner's spins?

    The judges give her 1s and 2s for spins that travel and sometimes rock. I don't believe this is a personal taste issue. Shouldn't it be deducted from Kostner's TES?
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  13. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    How can Yu Na be the complete package if she is lacking a 3Lo?
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL, and how can Yu Na be the complete package if she is lacking spread eagle ? :p
  15. Shaia

    Shaia New Member

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    How do you define "nice looking"? If you mean aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, then oh my, Yuna certainly has nice looking positions out on the ice. I could post links to hundreds of photos, but I will abstain :)
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm sure you can.
  17. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    How can Yuna be the complete package if she is lacking a boyfriend? :grope:
  18. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Is she lacking??? Why? She is beautiful! And Has Mao boyfriend?
  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Okay, you made me do this: how can she be considered a complete package if she's lacking a Pooh tissue box? :p

    FWIW, I don't think any of the three should be considered a "complete skater", and I find the subject silly. The whole point is that they have different strengths and weaknesses, and different fans will emphasize certain characteristics over others, thus affecting how each is perceived.
  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    We are in agreement on something, again...
  21. sonya71

    sonya71 New Member

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    Different clips for comparison that I found:

    Mao Asada 2012 Cup of China FS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXZzkLjNCs8

    Yuna Kim 2013 Korea Nationals FS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6EPLSSch1w

    Already posted, not quite fair as comparison as it is taken from a different angle and makes Carolina look like she is skating faster than she actually is in relation to Mao and Yuna, but still, better than nothing, I suppose:

    Carolina Kostner 2012 Golden Spin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRevSNTNMKc

    I found it very interesting because it really showed the different style of set up that they have. Mao has mostly 2-3 front crossovers and very few back crossovers if any, followed by several transitions and very short prep for jump. Yuna’s is basically 4-6 back crossovers followed by fewer transitions covered with speed and taking longer prep time for the jump. Carolina has, I feel, surging power to her skating that is on another level. But… her set up so obviously telegraphs ‘I… am… going… to… JUMP!’ And then, she doubles, or steps out.

    I guess even the setups show their individual strengths.
  22. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Very astute. Maybe I should send Dai my Kungfu Panda box, it is clearly what he REALLY need (Or Morozov seen carrying.) Afterall, Kungfu Panda totally kicks butt Pooh anyday; one eat Chinese noodles, one eat honey, it is no contest. He need Shifu like strength and zen to complete his package. I will even fill the box with MAN SIZE CLEAN-EX tissues, 3 ply of Anti-Viral PCS protection against blase/biased judging/skating politics. I only wish it will kill 99.9% of Morozov viruses too, to ensure complete moisture intact Daisuke will be available with natural free aroma, capable of miraculous respiration in the face of utter danger and other causes of mysterious infection.

    I agree. There's no such thing as complete skater, human, or perfection. To claim such thing will require some divine power and lots of luck. However, I'd like to think everyone is capable of fulfill and exceed their potentials, and rise to the challenge. When such occasion arises like at the Olympics at Vancouver, the sport saw its very bests getting as close to perfection when it requires them the most. Everyone towards the final flight were able to get as close to being complete in their own way. I am excited by how everyone seems to have raised their game substantially and the promise of a heart racing exciting competition where everyone is capable of pushing the sport once more. The field seems deeper than at the Olympics, will the 3 leading ladies all upped their ante again, will they make personal breakthroughs? I may have my preferences, but even that, I think it is a fair game on the day where everyone is capable of winning if they bring their best, and if they did, no one truly lose.
  23. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    In the spirit of Robeye's argument, you can be a complete skater and have weaknesses - but we are talking about competitive completeness. I would argue that ANY skater that consistently (say, 80% of competitions?) receive only positive GOE on spins, footwork, jumps, and spirals is a 'complete skater'. This far from makes a skater perfect, or even winning - if your tech content is too low, but with only positive GOEs you are probably pleasant to watch, but not going to win.

    Now, I haven't gone through protocols for these 3 excessively to see if any of them could be considered 'complete' in that regard, and it may even not be that relevant to this discussion, as they all still have different strengths and weaknesses.
  24. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    About the notion of complete package:
    Of course, no one is complete, if this word means 'perfect.' But, in figure skating, I don't think this is idle verbiage. For me, when they say Yuna is a complete package, they simply mean that she is beautiful to watch as well, as she marries musicality and much more to exceptional technical strengths. Before Yuna's time, I used to be mesmerized by Sasha, who could never be called a complete package because of her falls etc. Another obvious example is Midori, a jumping genius who fails to conjure up 'complete package,' in spite of her awe-inspiring athleticism.
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: But we already know you doubt FSU is capable of that, so why come here?

  26. skatingfanfun

    skatingfanfun New Member

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    Thank you! That's basically what I meant. Yuna did everything decently and she was fairly consistent as a competitor. She didn't have the best positions and lines, but she was a good actress; she did not have all the jumps but the ones she had she did them extremely well; She did not have the fastest/effortless steps and turns but she managed to have enough numbers in there to get the point. And when the stars lined up she skated a flawless LP without any fall! Can't remember when did she have another clean LP before that. Yana's SP were almost always good and exciting. I always prefer Yuna's SP to her LP except the Lark Accending program.

    Personally I believe Mao had the wrong programs for the 2010 Olympics. Her strength were her beautiful lines and the lightness of and elegance of a ballerina, as well as her pure innocent joy of skating, of cause her jumps too. She was not a drama queen( and still she is not). The forced drama and intensity didn't fit her skating style and personality.

    To me Yuna's skating is exciting, Mao's skating is lovely, pleasant, cheerful and soothing. That's the feeling I have in general.

    I really like the change of rules that restrict the number of 2As. if there was anything regretful about Yuna's Olympic, it would be the 3 2As in the LP. Now I'm really excited to see Mao's attempt to include all the triples. I wish Yuna get the 3L, and Mao get her jumps and two great programs that suit her. than it will be a real showdown of figure skating.

    As for Caro, I think she's trying to develop an edgy style, different, but not particularly appealing to my taste. I can appreciate that the programs show case her strength, but I would like to see more feeling expressed by the moves. Her programs don't touch me. IMO she is still in the process of finding the real/ best her.
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Mao should have went for the Lipinski packaging to combat the more controlled Kim package which worked at the Olympics.

    Lipinski and her team exploited the criticisms that Kwan seemed too controlled or rehearsed and thus inauthentic. One couldn't say the same for Lipinski's exuberance. The stars aligned themselves, and Lipinski's freedom, speed, and of course triple jumps made the difference as Kwan was more reserved than usual at Nagano.

    If Mao had programs that would have showed off her strengths better, then she would have closed the gap a bit more. Of course, it would have taken a lot to overcome Kim at those games as she didn't leave any door open really.
  28. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    When did Tara ever say that about Michelle? Do you have a link? I adored both girls and don't remember either of them behaving poorly like that. Pat and Danny were another story though...
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say Tara said anything.

    I said that Tara was seen as a breath of fresh air in the 1996-1997 season when Kwan decided to do another heavy, thematic program. Her exuberance, joy, and energy contrasted with Kwan's style. I was just saying I think Bezic and Callaghan knew what they were doing when they decided to continue that path with Tara and take it up a notch with her 1998 programs. They couldn't compete against Kwan on her strengths, so they highlighted what made Tara special and different from Kwan.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  30. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I think complete package is a horrible euphemism. It is a way to say that certain skaters should win even if others have more difficult footwork, spin positions, and jumps. At least that was how Peggy used it.

    Peggy also had a habit of saying "she has the big package." For many men--gay and straight--this has a ring of something different from what Peggy is talking about.

    I think it is better to talk specifically about the quality of skating, poise, refinement, and interpretation rather than this "complete package" cliche, which ended up being applied for any lady who America wanted to win.
  31. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Got it. It makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!
  32. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    Good morning, Bardtoob. What else is new? Btw, it's vaguely creepy that you go into my profile and dig out a several month-old post by me in another thread which I no longer recall what the topic or context was. I'm sorry to say that the interest is not mutual.
  33. sonya71

    sonya71 New Member

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  34. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  35. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the comparison. The programs are like night and day: Yu-Na's is darker and haunting while Mao's is upbeat and energetic. It's hard to compare the styles b/c they are complete opposites! It's really going to come down to how they execute.
  36. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    FSU is a community, so of course others can remember what you say recently in a similar context. There is nothing unusual about that. That is the nature of a community.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  37. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, thanks for posting this.
    I was surprised how little I liked both their camels - I think they both look sloppy? I much prefer something like this Alexander Johnson at US nationals (yes I realize it is a guy, and at a different level, but I don't see why both Kim and Asada can't have a nice stretch and arched back like this?)
  38. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    It's no one's fault that you made your posts so memorable. :lol:
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  39. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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  40. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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