Yu-Na, Carolina & Mao: A Comparison

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Jebrista

    Jebrista New Member

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    I think transitions is very difficult to judge for these three.

    I think Yu-Na has many areas where she does 4-5 crossovers in a row throughout the program. Also her jump entries (especially for lutz) are always the same and take a lot of time (especially lutz).

    For Carolina, I agree with the fact that her entrances for jumps take long, and sometimes include little chases/hops/whatever they are (salchow), but due to her ability to gain speed without as many crossovers, her transitions other than her transitions going into jumps are quite good.

    Mao, in my opinion, has the best transitions, especially into jumps. She does nice little steps into the loop and flip, and her steps before and after spins are very good, and keep the program going.

    So I would place transitions:

    Mao>Carolina>Yu-Na

    Also, Choreographed Sequences:

    Mao has a beautiful choreographed sequence that goes perfectly with the music.

    Yu-Na's includes her beautiful ina-bauer which immediately goes into double axel , it's pretty. It's also speedy and interesting.

    Carolina's goes with the music, and I like the idea of the many different/complicated arm movements, but I don't think there is enough "stuff." There is a spiral (relatively short) and a little hop, but there aren't many steps in the sequence.

    For the choreographed sequence I place them:

    Mao>Yu-Na>Carolina
  2. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    Yu-na> Mao = Caro

    Yu-na lacking musicality? Nonsense! She is in complete osmosis with music,which has been mentioned time after time by commentators around the world, as her signature quality.
    As for Mao's artistry, I don't feel anywhere near 'art' or 'artistic' when I watch a skater with such a deer in the headlights look the whole time.
    Caro is a great athlete who fails to elicit me either like or dislike.
  3. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Where did Jebrista say that Mao telegraphed her jumps?
  5. FSUSF

    FSUSF New Member

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    It has been always like that here :)
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It's ok, she's more adored than disliked. Take solace in that.

    Even though I personally think there are other skaters who have superior artistry and attributes in their skating, I can't deny the power of Kim and the way she managed to balance all that's necessary to become a convincing champion.
  7. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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  8. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    There are many of us who think highly of YuNa but think she falls just a bit short of 'complete osmosis with music' :lol:
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  9. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    I think Yuna is very musical, as much as Mao and Carolina.
    She just isn't as polished as these 2 in this moment. In these past seasons we have seen improvements in their expression, body awareness and music versatility, where as Yuna has stagnated a bit in that sense. Part of this is because of the programs she has and because she hasn't competed at all. She's still got time to improve and I'm sure by next year she will have better choreography
  10. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    I am always somewhat bemused at statements that Yuna is somehow lacking (relatively speaking) artistry and/or musicality. In reply, I can only quote the immortal Inigo Montoya:

    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    In regard of musicality in particular, I am of the view that Yuna is among the most musical ladies skaters, ever. It's one of the reasons I am a fan of hers. I've already written at length about the whys and wherefores in this and other forums, so I won't repeat them.

    It is, however, a curious thing that those in a privileged position to assess these aspects (e.g. former champions, prominent commentators, the judges who hand out the actual marks) almost uniformly have a much higher regard for Yuna's aesthetic qualities than many in this forum. Generally, she is ranked among the very best by the former group. On the other hand, if I were a new skate-watcher, and read only the comments I see here, I might be forgiven for thinking that the topic was Irina Slutskaya.

    I ran across an obscure message board in the season leading to the Vancouver Games. The title escapes me now; but it was a small forum run by and for music professionals (of the classical type). Some of them played for a living, many were teachers/professors. During the run-up to the Olympics, Yuna developed a surprisingly devoted following there, one of the many reasons being her highly developed sense of musicality and expressiveness, which this group found especially congenial.

    Such evidence, while hardly systematic, gives some impetus to considering the possiblity that there are legitimate aesthetic reasons why Yuna, at her best, has received 9s for the artistically-related components.

    A couple of caveats:

    1) Sometimes a performer or performance simply aren't your cuppa tea. I certainly get that. But fairly often, in my view, personal preferences are conflated with judgments regarding artistic/musical competence.

    2) Given Yuna's extended absence, it is certainly possible to make an argument that she hasn't shaken off all of the rust yet. I don't agree with the more extreme versions of this argument, but the moderate versions are at least plausible and can be debated. But this is not the same thing as saying that she was not that good artistically even at her peak (to which, I repeat: the "expert" testimony and competitive evidence constitute a prima facie case which needs to be explained).

    3) And, no, I don't think Yuna is perfect in every way. ;)
  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I have complimented Yu Na in the past only to find myself being attacked for not liking her enough. This was a turn off. I think there are holes in Yu Na's skating (some missing jumps, weak spin-spiral positions, etc.), but generally her positive GOEs on what she does well and deserved across the board 8.75 PCS usually should put her in first place if she omits nothing and others do not do extreme perfectly executed backloading or perform 3A ... I certainly put her above Kostner. Mao is Yu Na's Slutskaya.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
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  12. sonya71

    sonya71 New Member

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    The first post of this thread was interesting. I generally agree, except:

    - Salchow: Carolina > Mao > Yu-Na
    Yuna's salchow is most likely more reliable than Mao's right now, but Yuna's salchow technique is not good, while Mao's is now really good. It's just a matter of time now before Mao lands her salchow more securely.

    Skating Skills: Carolina >=Mao > Yu-Na
    Yuna is fast, but alot of her speed is generated by 5-6 crossovers. Mao may be slightly slower, but she generates her speed effortlessly. Carolina's skating skills are incredible, but Mao is lighter across the ice.

    And an addition:

    Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else
  13. MCC

    MCC New Member

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    Poor Yuna.. became the inferior skater among the three all of a sudden.
  14. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    OMG!!!!!! :rofl:
  15. FSUSF

    FSUSF New Member

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    Pre-rotated Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else
    Under-rotated Triple Axel: Mao > everyone else
  16. Jebrista

    Jebrista New Member

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    I'm not even sure what telegraphing jumps means. Can you please tell me?
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    "OKAY, WHY DON'T YOU KEYBOARD WARRIORS FIGHT USING PRIVATE MESSAGES INSTEAD OF POLLUTING THIS THREAD?"
    :shuffle: :slinkaway

    Here's one definition: http://iceskatingresources.org/TelegraphingJumps.html

    BTW, I've always liked the "old-fashioned" long backwards glide into a triple Lutz, followed by a deepening of the outside edge on takeoff (Paul Wylie's, for example), and think if it's done well, with no perceptible loss of speed or wobbling, then it demonstrates superior edge control and should not be penalized with negative GOE.

    ETA: I just watched Kostner's opening 3Lz in her Europeans FS (long backwards glide entry with no loss of speed) and am glad she was rewarded by the judges with +1 to +3 GOE (+1.20 GOE points added).
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  18. Jebrista

    Jebrista New Member

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    Thank you very much
  19. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Glad to see so much discussion was generated by my little assessment, though I will admit it got a little snippy back there. :)

    With 4CC out of the way and all of the great skating that took place there, I'm more excited than ever for worlds. No, Mao didn't rotate everything she attempted but she did stand up (no falls) and she went for it. I think that's very admirable. Taking the deductions may be worth it b/c even though it wasn't perfect I thought the performance and the program (minus that damn new dress!) were absolutely beautiful.

    It's funny b/c I feel like Mao has turned the tables a bit. Whereas before it was all in Yu-Na's hands (ie. if Yu-Na is clean, she'll will), given what Mao has done I think the power has shifted. If Mao is clean or is able to hit the majority of her big tricks, can Yu-Na beat her?
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    For me, the real highlight, and pure joy of 4CC is Akiko Suzuki. :cheer2:
    So, what comparison with the 3 skaters of this thread ? :saint:
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  21. Shaia

    Shaia New Member

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    Yes.

    Quality over quantity.
  22. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Thanks for starting the thread; your analysis was well thought out and agree with most of them. I think Yuna still has the edge but the competition got a little tighter and more exciting since Mao upgraded her game. I am also curious on how Kostner (current World Champion) will stack up in PCS when she competes against Yuna. If they are both clean, is there a possibility for Kostner, who I believe has the best choreographed programs of the season, to get higher PCS than Yuna?
  23. Li'Kitsu

    Li'Kitsu Member

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    I like Yuna, and by no means I'm saying Mao or Caro are a sure bet for worlds in London, but how most of Yunas fans are still so sure she'll win if everyone is clean is quite a suprise to me. By now, my money would be on her too, but that's because I think she's the most likely one to be clean. If all these three woman are spot on, it's going to be very close.

    For this "quality over quantity" argument: quality in what?
    Spins? No. Steps? No. Choreography? No. Interpretation? No.
    So I guess it's about the jumps here.
    What Yuna really has over Mao is the quality of the toe-jumps, mainly the amazing flow-out she has out of them added to the great ice coverage. That's true. But it's not as if Mao's jumps didn't have nice qualities to them too. Additionally, Yunas Salchow isn't as technically perfect as her toe-jumps, and since Mao has reworked her technique, her Salchow can compare. She's not as consistent yet (that's why I'd give that jump to Yuna by now), but the quality is there when she lands it. For the Axel, Mao's 2A is at least on the same level as Yuna's - arguably a tiny bit better, but not much anyway.
    So Yuna has better quality in three jumps, meaning in five of her jumping passes out of 10 overall (two in the SP, three in the LP). That is suppossed to be enough to cancel out two additional triples Mao does? Especially if one of them is a 3A. And Yuna doesn't have the Loop.

    Anyway, at least for the LP, I think if everyone was clean, the winner would be Caro (although Mao is my favorite, I'd love for Caro to win since so many people are starting the Yuna vs. Mao battle again :rolleyes: ).
    Caro seems to have 7 triples planned, and her jumping quality is on Yunas level - but she has the Loop. So she'd beat Yuna in the jumps by having a higher BV and equal GOE. Yuan is a slightly better spinner, but Caro has better steps and spirals. Most of all, Caro should have the highest PCS. Best SS, good choreo, very musicial and a great feel for the music. It's just that Caro would be behind in the SP at this point.
  24. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    what the...?
    salchow is one of most weakest jumps of mao.
    even Success rate is lower than 50%
    (By the way, among her jumps success rate is higher than 50%, only 3loop, 3flip)
  25. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Do you have stats? I ask b/c I did jump percentages for Sasha Cohen a few years back and it was interesting to see which jumps had a high success rate...
  26. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Sorry to say this but all I see from (seemingly) Yuna fans' posts are just saying Yuna is better no matter what, even insulting the posters who actually gave thought-out opinions. What about giving reasonable analysis to support your arguments?
  27. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    [/QUOTE]
  28. FSUSF

    FSUSF New Member

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  29. theguitarist

    theguitarist New Member

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    I'm sorry but are you a moderator, l'etoile? It's an innocent question. I don't come here often enough to know who's who. I find your exasperation as well as concern a bit exaggerated. Maybe as the fans of the reigning Olympic champion, Yuna fans including myself do not feel they need to defend their star with overly drawn-out arguments or analysis. Let the fans of the challengers fill those shoes. Just relax. Happy fans = good fans.
  30. maharbabackward

    maharbabackward New Member

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    I think that the two largest advantages that Yuna Kim has over her competitors is the SP and also her consistency. In the SP, she will do a 3Z-3T with +GOE. Mao can counter that with her 3A but that is not as guaranteed whereas YK is almost certain. Carolina has to do a 3F-3T combination to be able to not be several points behind going into the LP.. which is also a big if. Sure, she can get level 4 footwork with +GOE but that will not cover her technical deficiencies. In the LP, who has the chance of being clean? I would say Mao has a huge chance of being competitive with her planned routine but she has yet to hit. We can argue about who has the best PCS, spins, and footwork but at the end of the day its the jumps that will seperate all of the. And its not the salchow either, but the huge big ticket jumps. It will not matter if Kostner's salchow is the best, if she is not hitting the 3-3s and all the jumps for that matter. So a big advantage to Yuna Kim.
  31. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's easy. However, some people have no problem putting the Olympic silver medalist and the two-time World champion and the reigning World Champion on the spot.
  32. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    I agree that it will all come down to the jumps, or - in other words - who will make the least mistakes.

    All these ladies have good spins and great footwork. They are all planning level 4s and will probably get them (maybe a couple of 3s throughout the competition). They will get great GOE on all non-jump elements, and good GoE on most any jump clealy landed and w/o edge call. They will all get great PCS, way above anyoe else. How good GoEs ad PCS for each of them is not something anyone can predict, it is not a matter for analysis - it will come down to the judges assigned and their personal prefereces. I think we can afely assume that the points garnered from PCS and non-jump elemets will be pretty much the same for all three, unless one of them has a meltdown.

    It will come down to the jumps - what they plan, what they can deliver. Starting point - planned content and BV.
    For the SP Asada's planned BV is 34.5, Kim's - 32 and Kostner (with 3T-3T) - 30. Kostner's is the wekest - but only 2 pts from Kim, so not such a huge difference she cannot recover from. If Mao lands the 3A she will have a big advantage, but again, nothing Kim cannot make up.
    The LP layout is a guess, but assume Asada plans the same content as 4CC, Kim the same as NRW (6 triples and 2 2As is her ususal) and Kostner is probably planning for 7 triples, w/2 3Ts and 2 3Ss. Going from there you have a BV of almost 69 pts for Asada, 59 for Kostner and 58 for Kim. Is Mao lands everything she plans she will win, no matter what the others may do, but how likely is she to deliver everything? Not very. In fact, she is the most likely to make mistakes and underrotate or double while Kostner will may fall on a fully-rotated jump - a lesser evil under IJS. Kim is the most dependable of the three, but that is based on an 18-months old record, not recent.

    I would not be laying any money (real or imagined) on the outcome, but I will be mightily surprised if anyone other than these three is on the podium.
  33. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It will be difficult to defeat Kim, and it's probably depends on her mistakes, but it's not as if it hasn't happened before. 2010 and 2011 Worlds for example. Hypotheticals where everyone skates perfectly is fun, but when was the last time all of the top contenders skated lights-out with minimal mistakes?
  34. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Mao will get lower GOEs on even her clean jumps than Kim and Kostner will, no question, but GOE has been reduced so it wont be as big a factor as before. I didnt realize she had that huge an edge in BV though, wow that is a major difference.
  35. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Member

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    I really don't understand Kostner's appeal. YuNa and Mao seem in a whole other class. Kostner has never skated performance that has impressed me. I know her jumps can be great when she is on, and she can obvisously rack up COP points, but the rest of her performance is usually eh for me. Never saw a performance of hers that inspiried me, certainly never saw one I'd watch twice.
  36. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I used to feel the same way about Kostner. But for some reason, Worlds 2012 LP just hit me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOf6-8lT9t0
  37. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    See, I don't see it. I think that is where artistry as a subjective thing comes in :) Like many others in this thread, I think Yu-Na's best programs were Lark Ascending and Tango de Roxanne back in 2007. I remember seeing her SP at 2007 Worlds, being completely wowed and amazed at how much artistic potential she had. Sadly, that's where it began and ended for me. Danse Macabre came close. Bond Girl was a cheap imitation of that. Der Fliedermaus, Miss Saigon, Scheherezade & Gershwin were, imo, generic and rather forgettable. I honestly have no memory of Yu-Na's Olympic LP except that it was clean. I think she's a good performer - but that's about it.

    BTW - I know we disagree, but I appreciate you taking your time to explain your opinions and really think it through so nicely :)

    I didn't either, for a while - she seemed so Bambi like and sloppy! But since 2011 Worlds, Carolina has been a revelation to me. Her skating has become so much more mature, controlled and polished. Her musicality and interpretation has improved by leaps and bounds. I think she's very modern, unique and refreshing. Of course, her basic skating is beautiful on its own.

    Anyway, I don't htink it's a foregone conclusion. Yu-Na is usually pretty clean in the SP, but her LPs usually have at least one mistake or two.
  38. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  39. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    I actually think Carolina's musical interpretation and overall presentation are superior to both Mao and Yu-Na. I'd rank them: 1. Carolina 2. Mao 3. Yu-Na

    Yu-Na's programs aren't impressing me this year so far. It doesn't feel like she is connected with the music.
  40. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Member

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